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Jealousy, trust, and diaries
Hola folks, I'm here, posting incognito (hopefully) because I have a... problem.
You see, I've been with a wonderful woman for more than a year now. Our relationship is fantastic in every way... except one. Jealousy. I'm 29, and she's 25. She's only had sex with 3 people before me. (Two serious relationships, and one "mistake" with a long-time friend). And when she started digging, I was stupidly honest with her and told her that I've been with 7 women before her. (Why can't I learn to lie?) In any event, she's a fantastically jealous woman on top of being a hyper-moralist, and sees that number as horrendous. (Even though I feel it's rather modest for a 29 year-old) So, there's problem #1 that we're dealing with. She's constantly worried that I'm thinking about other women, and she obsesses about the fact that she's forced to have "shared" me with those women. (Side note: she's the only woman I've told "I love you" in my entire life... she knows this). It doesn't matter that the other women don't hold any emotional pull on me, and I never think of them.... the problem is that SHE thinks of them. In her constant worry, she started Google'ing the hell out of me. The vast bulk of my internet footprint is harmless. But ANY comment where I mention my current girlfriend would send her into a state of anger / sadness. Several times I had to go back and relive a post in some obscure forum where 5 years ago I commented that I'd just broken up with my girlfriend and I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do. I explain that I made that post THEN, in a moment of emotional turmoil, and if you scroll down in the same thread you can see my post 3 days later where I reaffirmed that I was glad I made the right decision. That doesn't matter... what matters is her feeling of deep hurt when she read the "is this right?" post. Everything so far I can understand, and I've been very patient and supportive of her. Given time, she's making baby-steps and has improved significantly. Until this past weekend. Months ago she'd found a blog space that I used to keep my personal thoughts (essentially a diary). She couldn't access it, because I had locked the space so that I was the only one that could view it. I never use the space any longer, and had all but forgotten about it. She didn't. This weekend she figured out my password (I use the same password all across the net), and she accessed the site. She read through a few entries (written before I even knew her) and of course got herself terribly hurt once again. One key example, in one entry I describe meeting my "dream girl"... that I met while on vacation at the beach and we had a fling. She exploded at me again. Nothing I've told her before was proven false... it's just now she had my words describing some other woman as a "dream girl". (Which truthfully was no dream girl... she was a summer fling.) In the past I understood all her fears, and did my best to help her work through her problems. But now I have a different problem. This time *I'm* feeling mixed up inside. I can't help feeling violated that she'd take my password and try dig extra info out on me. I know it's cliche'd, but I can't help feeling like it hurt the trust in the relationship. I feel like she could ask me anything, and I'll tell her. If she sneaks behind my back then that infers a lack of trust. Now I'm really confused. I'm still focusing my energy on trying to allay her fears. But I haven't even begun to deal with how I feel. Any recommendations for a confused man? I don't even know what to think on this one. |
sounds like a pretty high maintenance woman there. if she;s this nuts at this early stage, your life
with her should be a barrel full of monkeys......no, that should be shit. yeah. a barrel full of shit. the sooner you're rid of that kind of oppression and suspicion, the better. |
What LJ said. She's kinda nuts and you'll spend the rest of your life disproving groundless accusations while she uses her insecurity to justify ripping you to shreds. If you aren't happy now, you might ask yourself why you think things will get better.
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I have come to think that if a relationship isn't easy to actually be in, what's the point? I know you have to work on them, but if it's a constant fight, why would you bother?
Do yourself a favour and decide if this kind of thing is what you really want. Do you like the drama. Does it do something for your ego to see her so jealous? If not, unless she's going to actually seriously deal with her insecurities, you're in for a shit ride. |
Kinda Nuts ????
Dude !! Get shed of this chick befor you find your self on fire one nite and can't get out of the bed because she sewed the bed sheets around you !!! |
dude, you don't need that noise. it's just childish. she's just digging for dirt to make her seem like the victim (somehow), that you're some lying bastard with a rotten past.
if she can't learn to accept you and your personal thoughts for what they are, then i think this is someone you should not be with. there are, in fact, girls out there who will respect your privacy and even try to relate to or understand your past, rather than turn your sexual history into a formal investigation. now, if she caught you nailing her little sister in the back of mom's minivan, you might have some "trust" issues to work out. but i don't think this is the case. tell her to grow up or get out. |
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She has SERIOUS trust issues that have NOTHING to do with you. However, she is busting her ass to MAKE them about you... But, hay, if you want that... have at it. |
Weeeell..... to be 100% honest I feel like she's got a little bit of justification. And I mean a LITTLE bit. Here's a bit more back-story...
A few months back she started googling me, and she found a 5 year-old "introduce yourself" post that I put up on some forum. It was a fill-in-the-blank style post, and two questions were, "Do you ever miss an ex-girlfriend?", (answered yes), and "stuck on desert island w/ 1 person...", and I answered with the name of that ex, and commented it was the same person as the ex-gf answer. She read that (2 lines out of 200), and automatically assumed I had some hang-up about this ex. I explained to her that no, there is no hang-up. It was a form-letter, and I made that post years ago in a moment of loneliness, and I was reminiscing about my first girlfriend. (Hence the reason for me filling out an "introduce yourself" topic). Nothing exciting, and definitely nothing to be worried about. She accepted it, and didn't mention it again. BUT THEN... Quite innocently (I believe her on this) she was going through a stack of old papers and she ended up finding: the break-up letter that I wrote to that self-same ex-girlfriend. Her first reaction is that I really *DO* have some hangup for this girl, why else would I keep that letter for so long? This is the part where I give her some sympathy. To be honest, I have to admit that it doesn't look good for me. But the truth is that the I kept the break-up letter originally because I was 17 at the time, and the letter was full of "growing moments". But after so many years it had ended up stuffed in with a stack of old papers and forgotten about. So she found it and was horribly (horribly horribly) distraught. (Remember, this is a break-up letter, not a love letter). I made a show of laughing the thing off and tearing up the letter and flushing it down the toilet. Again, she accepted the response and seemed to be stable again. Next, pick up where I began my first post. Jealous girl, find password, dig into past. *Sigh* I really don't know. I hear what you're all saying. It's the same thing I've preached in the past. Basically: 1) If they love you, then they'll accept your past, the good and the bad 2) Relationships are work, but they shouldn't be a chore I don't know. I'm not ready to quit on this one. Like I said... this is the only woman I've ever said "I love you" to, and I still feel the same way. I don't want to walk away from that. I just want to get her fixed in the head. :neutral: |
Nope, not right dude... old GF... old news.
She has trust issues and she is working them out on you. Don't quit if you don't want to... but jealousy is it's own special hell and you can have it. Jealousy is a lack of trust and you have given her no reason not to trust you. You have to ask where the real issue is here. I have two diaries and all kinds of internet stuff... my wife of thirteen years does not look (lives together seventeen) and I don't look in her three journals or on-line stuff, I know her passwords. I would feel like a creep and a liar. |
Oh, and one more comment about my last post... it goes back to what I've been preaching to her...
If you're a jealous person and you spend all your energy LOOKING for something, you WILL find something to be jealous about. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And a side note... she had the gumption this past weekend to ask me if I wanted to go to a "good friends" wedding in May. Turns out the friend is actually the best-friend of her ex-boyfriend. So a girl that is insanely jealous that I may be THINKING about some ex-gf wants me to go to a wedding where her ex is the best man. :whofart: |
Do as I say...
You are making my case, not yours, dude. Another thing... jealousy does not go away. It is a personality trait. Part of who they are. Unless they are willing to get help and, actually, change the way they think and approach the world... they best they can do is hide it from you. |
Yeah, I hear you, rkz. The truth is that she has diaries and blogs, and I've told her explicitly I don't want to know anything about what's in there. Everything is contextual. And when a person is speaking to themselves, potentially many years in the past, you can't read that and assume it has any bearing on what your perception of the comment may be.
*sigh* I don't know. After voicing my opinion here, and getting the feedback, I think I'm going to sit down with her and have a long talk tonight. These past weeks I've been acting very understanding and spent all my energy to talk to "help her work through her concerns". I'm feeling a new subject coming up tonight. Basically, "we need to work through these trust issues". :neutral: |
I edited my above post.
You do need to talk straight with her. It is not about feelings, it is about actions. Women often try to make it about how they feel... like they could not help themselves.... we are accountable for our actions at all times. That did not come out right... men do it too, but those who are compulsive about "feelings" like jealousy do this often. I have seen it more in women. That is why I put it in those terms. |
You've already suggested the best thing you can do - sit down and have a long talk with her. And I would suggest relationship counselling if you are serious about this woman.
I have more sympathy with her than other posters. I know the way she has behaved has caused you problems and she is out of line, but if you care about her at least stop and think what she is going through. Jealousy is a powerful emotion. Although she can learn ways of controlling it, she is always going to have it there to some degree. Until she learns it will nag away in a small part of her brain, like an alcoholic going about their daily business but all the while planning where the next drink is coming from. She will probably have an adrenaline rush when she gives in to the urge to snoop. For a while she will be buzzing with it, then if she finds something that confirms her fears - a name on a website, a letter, she will have a massive crash. She's not coming to you in a furious rage or crying uncontrollably in order to manipulate you - that is the only way she can deal with the weird mix of chemicals in her body. Most jealous people I know hate their jealousy. If they could take a magic pill to make it go away, they would. Of course the only thing that works is facing what they fear the most, an understanding that what they are doing is hurting the person they love and a willingness to change. Don't indulge her too much. Make it clear it is her jealousy you dislike, and not her, but that she needs to learn to control that part of herself. |
Hey, Predicament. This is the first of an arbitrarily large number of "Groundhog Days". That number can be as large as the number of days you can expect to live, or, the number of hours in each of those days, or, the number of times the subject of an argument can change in an hour in each of those days. Arbitrarily large. Assuming nothing fundamental changes, (and I have no reason to believe anything will change, fundamentally), you'll be asking this question again tomorrow. And next week, next year, ad nauseum.
You can add one new thing to this, "Are you any closer to the end of your patience at refuting baseless accusations?" If that answer is yes, then you're on the path to the end of this cycle. You can short circuit a lot of the grief by just ending it now, unless you're into that kind of masochism. Or you can ride it out. If your answer to the question is no, then you will ride because it will continue. You know this. Ask yourself what you're trying to find justification for? Will you become more trustworthy? Can you prove it? Think about it. zippyt: hehe "Get shed" sweet. with your permission, I would like to add that to my vocabulary. |
Wow, that would be hard man. Part of you feels so strong for her but her jealousy issue is really an issue. I guess stepping back and reevaluating the relationship is the only thing you can really do. See if she's on page 4 of the courtship guide, not page 1, trying to find dirt on you. Miniscule things like past ex's that aren't a factor anymore shouldn't disrupt a healthy loving relationship, at all! If you guys don't have a common goal in the relationship then I don't know if things will work out. But I feel for you, brother.
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The amount of time she spends "digging" bothers me. Anyone who spends that much effort looking for dirt isn't someone I would spend my time with -- who wants to date a person dedicated to bringing you down?
I feel for you, if you really love her. :( |
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this or this. GTFOOT ASAP
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I agree...get out.
Hypothetically, say you were cheating in some fashion. So, her repeated jealousy makes you stop cheating. Not because you wanted to stop, but because of being sick of the wrath. You can't force other people to be what you want. When someone pressures someone into marriage, when someone tells someone they can't go out with their friends, when someone won't let you talk to other people they think you might be attracted to: completely innocent or completely guilty is irrelevant. When you force someone to do anything except what they would normally do, you are planting the seeds of resentment. It may take 2 months, 2 years, 20 years...but one day you'll think: I had to walk on eggshells to make this life liveable, and in the process I left parts of myself behind. People are going to be who they're going to be. You, however, seem to be incurring wrath for no reason. Just think what would happen if you accidentally forgot to be someone else and, say, ran into an old g/f on the street, and talked to her. I think all hell would break loose. Not a fun way to live. |
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Oh, yeah, and Foot3 left out another means of quick transport you might want to consider in your quest to be free:
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...there's no place like home
there's no place like home there's no place like home... |
As others have suggested, sit down and come to some kind of agreement because this is NOT something I could live with. You will be walking around on pins and needles waiting for the next hammer to drop. This is the kind of person who will force you to isolate yourself from all relationships except those that she approves of or supervises. Fuck that. Agree she gets over it, or dump her ass. I would never consider spending time with someone like that no matter how beautiful she is. And remember this, for every really hot chick you meet out there, there is some guy who is tired of her shit. Start looking for the plain Jane's, they are more level headed and more fun to be with in the long run. Good luck.
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Just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan You don't need to be coy, Roy Just get yourself free Hop on the bus, Gus You don't need to discuss much Just drop off the key, Lee And get yourself free |
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Ask yourself this... a good friend, brother, or son is in this relationship, not you.
What do you tell them? |
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I did not read it that way at all.
"Beautiful" women often come with baggage that more dowdy women, who do not work at being fashionable and outwardly attractive do not come with. I agree with this... we definitely read it in two different ways. |
A more charitable reading:
"Your hormones drive you to find the hottest woman you can find. But don't be so shallow, a woman's better qualities may not be obvious on the surface. Take the time to look at the non-obvious choices." It's also true that hot ones (of either gender) that are not in a committed relationship are more likely to have ...issues. Basic statistical kinetics. |
So back on topic.......
Basically man, you can't change people or their behaivor but you already know that. You can tell them how it makes you feel, but it's ultimately up to them to take control of their part of the relationship. Feel me? Love isn't enough, sometimes. It's true. There are sometimes more complicating factors that don't allow love to overcome everytime. Sorry boys and girls. |
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"Baggage", exactly. A common term in my house. Everyone has it. The question is how much can you live with and how much of the other persons baggage are you going to be expected to carry. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns.
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Personal story:
I met my fiance, who is several years older than me, on a message board where he had something of a reputation for being a player. Before we started talking to each other, I'd seen plenty of pictures of him posing with cute girls at parties and conventions, and, since I didn't think of myself as a "hottie," figured that he would have no interest in me. Most of the women in the pictures were very shapely and dressed in sexy outfits. When he first approached me and started flirting with me, I was very surprised and figured that it would last just about until he found out what I looked like. Turns out I was wrong. :) But it took me quite a while to accept that I didn't have to compete with the girls that he had dated previously. I kept thinking that he was just dating me because he felt like he should grow up and have a "serious" relationship (i.e. one with low physical attraction). It's sometimes difficult to realize how other people see you. Since that time I have come to the shocking realization that lots of people find me attractive, but for a long time I really didn't believe that someone could see me that way. Maybe your girlfriend has similar insecurities? It was a similar situation to the one you describe, Predicament, in that he had dated quite a few women but had never been in love, and most of the relationships had been very short. He is very confident and if he saw a woman who looked cute, he had no problem asking her out to dinner! Totally unlike me; I've always been one to obsess about someone for weeks before making a move. It was difficult for me to accept at first that his relationship with me was different not because I was less attractive physically than the past girlfriends, but because there were other aspects to the relationship besides physical attraction. In summation, I don't blame your gf for being nervous about this. While she was out of line to guess your password instead of just talking to you, it is scary for those of us with limited sexual experience to think about our partners being with someone else! She probably does not think of herself as very sexy, or worries that her lack of experience means that she is not as good in bed. If you really love her, you aren't going to dump her based on the advice of random internet people. :) But you should talk to her about her anxieties and what she can do to feel more confident. If I were her, I would most want to hear that you feel lucky to be with a woman like her and that you think about her all the time. Reassure her that you choose her over other women, but let her know that she is hurting both of you by obsessing over your past and that she needs to find the confidence to let it go. Let her know that you will help her with that however you can. Whatever you do, please don't use the "you are attractive, but your insecurity is unattractive" line. I hate that one because it sends the message that she isn't allowed to talk about her anxieties, which will just make them worse. Good luck! |
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Hey, I never thought I'd get a hot guy, but I never settled for "oh well he has a nice sense of humor"... and lo and behold a gorgeous former Marine decided to propose to me! If you hold out for good chemistry (which doesn't mean that they're America's Next Top Model, just that they make you tingly in the pink parts), you will eventually find it. |
Attractive, based on your idea and ideal and something you are basing on a social construct and competition with the world and those around you are two, incredibly, different things.
Please, see my post on what I see as attractive and why. Jealousy is not insecurity, it is a lack of trust. |
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I don't agree with your views about attractiveness. I don't think that a person should pursue a relationship with someone he views as "dowdy," because no one should have to be in a relationship with someone who thinks something like that about them. To me, that's like settling -- saying that someone isn't perfect, but they're good enough and you can't expect better. I know people who believe that they have to settle to be in a relationship, and they aren't healthy people -- they are too unhappy with themselves to accept being alone even for a little while. It is simply more healthy to be willing to wait for someone who excites you. Maybe you, personally, are excited by the more low-maintenance type who don't work out or wear a lot of makeup or anything. That's fine. Personally, I prefer girls who have a strong personal style and put some effort into it. To me, that is just a difference of taste, not a difference between whether someone is "beautiful" or not. Both types can be beautiful. And jealousy does not necessarily mean a lack of trust. You can be jealous that your SO finds someone else attractive without actually believing that they would cheat on you. |
LOL, you sure read a lot into posts and make it into things on your own. I never stated anything personal or made any specific remarks that you could interpret to mean that in any way.
If you don't think they will cheat, there is no reason to be jealous. |
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There has to be a "why" to all of that.
My wife has several male friends, always has. They go to concerts and movies I find shitty, go to dinner and hang-out. Some of these guys are not my friends at all, just acquaintances. The idea that the time she is spending with them is "mine" or time can be owned is insane to me. I have had female friends and the situation is the same, if it were not I would leave her. If someone is going to cheat, they are going to cheat, acting like a head-case is a sure-fire way to push them to it and find out quickly what if feels like to get cheated on or left. What someone is thinking cannot be changed or altered and is such a paranoid thing to worry about that if one finds themselves fixated upon it, it is, seriously, time to get help. Of course if someone sees someone attractive they are going to have lustful, primal, normal thoughts about that person... good, your SO is not dead or broken. We point them out to each other all the time. |
Cliche, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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When I see a hot guy I usually say something about him being spunky or something like it.
Hubby never says if he thinks other women are hot. I think he thinks I'm insecure. I don't think I am. |
Hime... actually you had a good string of posts. It reminded me of a past conversation I've had with my SO going back to the theme of confidence and insecurities. Basically it's the fact that she's always trying to so hard to be something "better". She had this drive to prove to me that she was better in every way than any girl I'd ever dated in the past. It'd drive her crazy. Is she better looking? Better cook? Sexier? Better in bed? Conversationalist? And on and on. She'd obsess that every little thing she did I was comparing to some girl in my past and measuring her to that standard.
I can understand why it'd get frustrating. My message: this isn't some race. You're not on some metaphorical race-track trying to outrun every woman in my past to prove you're #1. You've already won. Stop running. Just be you, and be happy. That's a lot more enjoyable for both of us. Easy to say. Harder to live by. But she's trying. |
And this reply is more aimed at rkz...
She hit me with an interesting snippet this weekend. Basically, one thing I believe is that in the wrong situation anyone can cheat. Everything in life is a chain of events which you can control at any point. Imagine... - A non-cheating husband hires a super-hot secretary - His marriage hits a rough spot and he decides to ignore the problem - He starts innocently confiding in his secretary, nothing too serious - Secretary start showing him attention and he doesn't stop the behavior - Months later at an out-of-town conference they get a drink at the bar - They both drink too much, decide to take a trip to the hot-tub... And bam, next thing you know somebody who thought he'd never cheat is suddenly shagging his secretary. The key is to recognize what path you are on, and to choose if you want to accept the consequences. Don't put yourself in a situation where you're trying to say "no" as you're walking to the hot-tub with a young hottie while you're in a drunken stupor. Stop it earlier. Well, my SO hit me with an interesting perspective. She takes it a step further. Basically, if you stop every situation where it could even lead to an eventual attraction, then you don't have to worry about fidelity since there's never an opportunity to break it. Interesting perspective. I don't particularly agree with it because then you get into a sticky situation where one partner eventually feels chained in by the exhaustive rules of the other person, until they finally resent them. The basic reply is that relationships are built on TRUST. Everyone has heard that saying before. I don't recall anyone ever saying relationships are built on RULES. While you *can* build an elaborate system of rules for behavior intended to keep the other person in line, I'd argue that RULES should be personal rules enforced by each individual, and that each person should TRUST the other to operate within their own rules. One example is that the husband may not be comfortable taking a female co-worker out for a round of golf, but the wife may have no compunctions taking out a male co-worker for an occasional round of tennis. The husband may be uncomfortable by his wife's decision, but it's his responsibility to trust HER rules, and not to try to enforce his own rules. Again, this goes back to accepting the consequences of your decisions. If you continually enforce rules on your partner, how many rules can they bear until you're viewed as oppressive? |
Rules are about trust... otherwise why does one not get chipped so she can track their ass all the time? Set intervals where they call in every so many minuets? I know people who are in those kind of co-dependent relationships and they are NOT based in love.
Anyone can choose to cheat... that line is crossed by that individual when they choose to in the "scenario" of their choice. I was an actor and my wife is a professional who has many male clients and friends, travels all the time. She loves her job and I am glad for it. Just part of who she is, if she was not her own individual I would not want to be with her. You are right, I have been giving my, personal, opinions. If you disagree and think you can "monitor" someone into fidelity, fine, go for it. I think it is a fool's errand and would rather have them cheat and get the relationship over-with so I can be with someone trust-worthy sooner, than spend more time with the person who was going to cheat on me. Ooooor... perhaps my constant mistrust and nagging, instead of getting to know them and making them feel loved, trusted, befriended, unalone, happy and comfortable in the relationship and life drove them to look for comfort in another's arms while still in the relationship with me? Hmmmmm? |
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Jealousy is an awful, awful emotion, that stems from insecurity.
I'm a jealous person, but I have learned that its my problem, its an insecurity problem and I can usually deal with it. Your gf kinda takes *insecure* to a new level, if its something you want to work on - fine....but she has to realise she has a serious problem and want to deal with it. Figuring out your password was the proverbial straw and I think you have been more than super patient about the whole thing. I have no advice that hasnt already been given (x 10), but I wish you luck and I (think) admire your dedication to love :) |
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Not like intently digging up and attempting to find dirt, but to at least understand the past and what has happened with one's past relationships. It'd be a rude awakening to get pretty serious then to have her find out "YOU had a thing for Heather? Why because she has bigger boobs than me?" :bitching: And you're like :whofart: I'd say page 1 of the courtship guide contains "be aware of past their past excursions." |
I was dreaming of the past.
And my heart was beating fast, I began to lose control, I began to lose control, I didn't mean to hurt you, I'm sorry that I mad you cry, I didn't want to hurt you, I'm just a jealous guy, I was feeling insecure, You night not love me any more, I was shivering inside, I was shivering inside, I was trying to catch your eyes, Thought that you were trying to hide, I was swallowing my pain, I was swallowing my pain. |
Question for Predicament: Do you trust yourself?
I also wanted to mention that it sounds like there isn't much respect in the relationship. Perhaps some clear boundaries need to be made. The woman you are with sounds almost exactly like my husband's ex. That is the reason she is his ex. It didn't end well. |
Jealousy... brings back bad, real bad, memories. Painful memories.
I only have one recommendation - RUN! Jealous people are never cured of jealousy. Jealous people are miserable and they WILL make you miserable. If you think you can help them "FIX" or control their jealousy problem - you can't! A little jealousy is normal. This girl you described HAS an issue - a very serious issue. Look at it this way. Six billion people on this planet. Half are women. That woman is one out of three billion. We are all human, we all have one issue or another, the idea is to find someone that will make you happy and vice versa. This woman doesn't appear to make you very happy. Your choice... Do you want to spend the next 25 years with her or is she THAT good? |
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