Split from Cloud's Kids&Internet Thread
 

Let's continue this here, and let cloud's thread continue in peace.

If Merc's kids want to do off-limits things undetected, they will figure out how. In the mid-90s my parents were on the "Cyberpatrol" bandwagon. That's how I learned about computers. A teenage boy is going to get his free porn no matter what obstacles you put in his way.

Ibram, I think you're probably at least as mature as I am, and probably moreso in some ways. And I'm generally considered extremely mature, for my age. If I were bi (or gay, or whatever) I probably wouldn't have the sack to admit it and be happy with myself.

I don't always agree with you Ibram (Rammstein fucking rocks) but on this one you are very right.

The idea that the number of kids you have has a positive, causative correlation with the amount or quality of life experience someone has is ridiculous.

I outright closed the other thread, it's ridiculous. If someone wants to start a new thread, that's fine.

I wouldn't ban Merc just for one thread, but please Merc dude, settle down.

This thread is useless considering TM wont move his awful, hateful, virulent filth out of cloud's thread, so... yeah.

EDIT: well if UT closed the other thread then yeah, this is useless anyway but whatever.

Thanks UT.


Oh, and Cloud, sorry about your thread getting closed...

So let me get this straight.
Some young punk teen with no life experience is going to tell a parent of teens that he is a "overcontrolling little dictator to your poor kids", whom he does not even know... And this same punk teen comes up with some laws of a internet forum??? I have neither screamed, flamed, nor any thing else your teen fantasy has thought up in your masterabatory mind... :D

Dude this is a two way street. Don't put this all on me. You get what you give on the internet.

Are you pained teen?

Merc, I would really suggest shutting up. UT said cool it. That means cool it.

TM DUDE take a chill pill !!! Listen at your self argueing with a kid whos ball havent even droped yet !
IB shut up and stop baiting him !!! His house , his kids , his little exestance , If he does it right he will have good smart kids , if he doesn't then he will have to suffer the consiquences !!!

"Ad hominem" is perhaps the most well known of all the logical fallacies. Literally translated as "against the man", it describes any argument in which the proponent's arguments are dismissed because of who he is or represents, instead of addressing the argument itself.

Wikipedia entry on Ad Hominem

Argue the point, not the man.

Which is what I have asked from the beginning... The teen cannot make the point that a parent has no right to see or monitor what is being transacted under the roof that the parent controls.
:D

That is quite obvious. :D
Hey, it is like shooting fish in a barrel.:blush:

My argument is as yet untouched.
I said it twice: "Make sure they know how to be safe and keep them away from the porn, and they'll be perfectly fine. You shouldnt have to shelter them."
or
"If your kids have half a brain at all they can make their own decisions about what is and isnt okay. You teach them how to be safe, and let them do the rest."

As of yet you havent responded to it at all. You've just called me a fag a half-dozen times and said a lot of other ridiculous and hurtful things. (or at least things that would be hurtful to anyone who wasnt secure and fine with themselves)

Literally, "against the man". As long as you construct the argument this way, you are committing the logical fallacy. Address the point, not the teen.

You poor baby...

I never said that 'porn' was or was not the problem. As with all teens, yourself included, you do not have the "half of a brain" for which to make decisions about what is ok and what is not ok. Someday you will know exactly what I am talking about. Until then you are but another punk teen on the net trying to be something you are not. Come back and visit us in 20 years.

Do you ever learn, Merc?

Stop with the ad hominem argument. Its failing and making you look like a fool.
The first quote of mine was addressed to cloud. If you like, ignore it and focus on the second. I'll say it again for good measure.

"If your kids have half a brain at all they can make their own decisions about what is and isnt okay. You teach them how to be safe, and let them do the rest."

Ah yes, but please note the teen attacked the premise that a parent has no right to spy on his children and that such action deemed him/her, father/mother to be a "mother-fucking asshole", and you have no offense to this?? this is perfectly acceptable as a parent to be called a "mother-fucking asshose" with absolutely no response??? If an adult was standing next to this punk teen most would back-hand deck the little fag with a firm fist and break his jaw. :D

But given this is all virtual, obviously anything goes, as long as you are a teen. Correct? :blush:

As with all teens, yourself included, you do not have the "half of a brain" for which to make decisions about what is ok and what is not ok.

I dissagree , That is a WAYYYY broad statement about ALL teens , now I agree that some kids can do some STUPID stuff , there ARE those teens that are more senseable than some adults .

If you call me a "mother fucking asshole" that is hardly an "ad hominen" argument, no matter how hard you want to cover your teen ass, sorry that dog will not hunt either.
:rolleyes:

The horrific mistake that Merc is making is confusing control for instruction.

Kids who are controlled like automatons never learn how to exercise good judgement. Their first day in college, they will not know how to handle all the evils available to them because they have never had to make a decision in their entire life - all their decisions were pre-empted by Stalinist-level control.

You can't teach a child how to choose good over bad if they are raised in a hermetically sealed bubble.

All that Merc is accomplishing is deferring their exploratory years to when their actions are no longer Merc's problem. Basically, a philosophy of "screw up all you want just wait till you move out to do it."

That is nothing short of an abdication of parental responsibility.

Its really not that different than not teaching your child how to drive. You have to teach them then you have to give him (or her - this isn't a gender issue) the keys now and then and not let them see you pray to God that they come back in once piece.

If you don't show a child some trust, then don't expect any back.

I'm with Ibram on this one.

True statement, on general terms, but from the standpoint of a parent of a specific set of teens, would you allow some other teens to tell you what is right or wrong for you children? I think not.:headshake

TM, why can't you just accept the fact that you're only making an ass of yourself even more?

Seriously dude, chill. Quit arguing just to be arguing.

Woooowooo my friend... There are no statement of abdication or control for that matter, only monitoring and appropriate intervention when and if things appear to be getting out of hand.

So now you're promoting child abuse, too?

Merc, I called you an asshole because I think you are one. That wasn't an argument, that was my opinion of you. Not an argument; merely an insult. My argument is why i think you are an asshole. I think you're an asshole because youre a pathetic little dictator - and I think youre a pathetic little dictator because... say it with me now...
"If your kids have half a brain at all they can make their own decisions about what is and isnt okay. You teach them how to be safe, and let them do the rest."

That's certainly ad hominem too; it's not moderators job to police for ad hominem, which happens all the time, but there's also a point where it goes over the line and can degenerate to mere abuse and name-calling nonsense.

would you allow some other teens to tell you what is right or wrong for you children? I think not.

No I wouldn't , but I wouldn't revert to name calling eather ,
just WHO is the adult here ???
You are , so you need to act like it !!!!!

Chill, I am having fun.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you think there is anything on the internet that you could monitor of your teen that would be inappropriate?

So basically, you as a parent, believe that your kid is so totally trustworthy and such an angel that there would be no chance that anything they do on the internet could be harmful or that any information that you, as a parent, could ever gleem to help prevent that child from heading into trouble??? Please give me a response, I am curious.

Ok, I see so his comment is more correct. I get it.
:rolleyes:

I'm with Ibram. I have three kids. I teach them how to stay safe on the internet and then let them loose (ish) -mine are younger than Ibram, so still need enough help that I know what they're up to anyway. But I will give them a pretty free reign when older. You want your children to grow up to be responsible -you gotta give them a chance to practice responsibility. Over-protected and spied-on children just become more devious -often at the expense of other things to which they should be applying their intellect.

p.s. Merc, if you're such a good parent and a good judge of what is appropriate for teens on the web, how come you don't know how to respond appropriately to a 16yo on a forum like this?

And because I think you are an inmature little punk teen with zero life experience I am more wrong than you???? So if I just call you a "mother-fucking-asshole" we are all even??? Because that is my opinion of you??? My argument is that you have no experience as a teen without the responsibility of teen children, like yourself, to make a judgement. How in the hell would you know if or if not I was a "dictator" to my teen children??? Just asking for a legit answer here teen.

Abdication might be too strong a word but the point I am making is that you can't expect a kid to develop the self discipline to choose not to visit unsavory content if you screen it all out.

What is he going to do when he's 19, out on his own with his own computer and no daddy sitting on his head clubbing him each time he strays to the dark corner of the internet - or strip clubs - or whatever.

What are you teaching when you demonstrate zero trust in your kids?

And I'd be willing to bet $50.00 that your kids have probably figured out how to tunnel through your Great Wall of Purity. For every safeguard, there is a hack. Keyloggers, screen cap software, site monitoring software - all of it can be hacked. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they got the software while at their friend's house (oops - security breach) and installed it on your home machine. Don't bother looking for it - it won't show up in task manager.

Distrust breeds subversion.

Just playing Devils Advocate to a teen who has no idea what it is like to be a parent. ;)

First of all, I don't think you realize that I am younger than Ibram, therefore it is quite impossible for me to be the parent of a teenager, seeing as I am one.

And second, I have friends who are living proof that if you track your kid's every move and micro-manage their lives, they will go wild as soon as they're out on their own. So that, my friend, is only inviting trouble, not preventing it.

§

Never said I ever screened it all out. Only that parents should know what is going on when their teens are on the web. I have never clubbed any of my kids. Although I wanted to once or twice. :D

My older kids are already out there doing what ever they do, that is their responsibility now. They will be responsible for their own actions.

I know computers much better than my kids so I doubt any of the later will happen.

But we digress from the topic.

Do parents have a right to know what their kids are doing on the net when such access is only available in their homes???

How do you think Stalin would have responded if one of the proletariat had walked up to him and cussed him out to his face, and he couldnt simply kill him?

No where, no where... have I said that I in anyway micro-manage my kids lives.

But I did tell my 17 year old that if he ever went to jail, plan on spending at least 24 hours there because I would not come get him out so he can understand that all behavior suffers consequence. ;)

By the way, Merc, I dont think ANYONE said you didnt have a RIGHT to do it.

Having the right to do something does not make doing it right.

Of course they do. And an obligation to stay involved. My only point is that you gotta give them some room to take responsibility with a parental safety net. Several people from around the planet and from both ends of the political spectrum are in near perfect agreement that you gotta let kids screw up so you can show them how not to and how to own up to it.

I suppose you are going to tell me that you didn't keep a few copies of JUGGS under you bed when you were growing up. Or did your father conduct random, warrentless searches to ferret out such tools of the devil. ;)

All my parents said to me was do not give out details to your address, phone number or school you go to. They also said not to arrange meetings with anybody, send any postal mail and they asked me not to look at people's web cams so I don't. I've been ok without them looking over my shoulder. :)

In your teen mind, I believe that you believe that your are correct, as most teens do about anything. :)

I never said that you did...

Nope, only implied it. But I do think that tracking what sites they go to is considered micro-management, and if you micro-manage in one aspect of your kids' lives, it's quite likely that you do in others.

How is this relevant to your argument?

That is really not the issue, the issues is am I a "Mother-Fucking -Asshole" for wanting to keep my kids safe in my house under my rules by using parental spy-ware? Sorry dude, if you are not a parent you have no idea what a "warrentless search" is of a childs room, give me a frigging break.:rolleyes:

anecedotal...

implied??? don't wavier.

So how do you know that they don't?

My father told me that there was only one thing he'd never bail me out of jail for: DUI. That did more to keep me from drinkin' and drivin' than anything else. The idea that he'd yank the safety net out for that one offense kept me clear of it.

Because I would be able to tell if they were on my computer and I have never given them reason to.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary View Post
But I did tell my 17 year old that if he ever went to jail, plan on spending at least 24 hours there because I would not come get him out so he can understand that all behavior suffers consequence.
My father told me that there was only one thing he'd never bail me out of jail for: DUI. That did more to keep me from drinkin' and drivin' than anything else. The idea that he'd yank the safety net out for that one offense kept me clear of it.

I agree with both of these statements , you screw up you pay .

Check this out:

http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/s..._predators.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9878187/

http://safety.com/articles/internet-predators.html

http://www.pcsndreams.com/Pages/News...ves/000115.htm

Lauren Kerr Thomas knew the right words to woo a 15-year-old girl he met in an Internet chat room.
"He was going to be the answer and cure for a 15-year-old's problems," said Riverside police Sgt. J.E. Trego.

Instead, Thomas added problems no 15-year-old should have to face.

He is accused of repeatedly having sex with the girl in hotels in Fairborn and Riverside and at his home in Kinsmon in Trumbull County. He already has been convicted of unlawful sexual conduct charges involving the girl in Montgomery County.

Now he faces kidnapping, rape and unlawful sexual conduct counts in Greene County Common Pleas Court early next year on the Fairborn accusation, and in a Trumbull County court in March or April.
Investigators say Thomas, 45, is a typical Internet sex "traveler" who preys on children met via the Internet.

These predators pull out the stops to impress their young, smitten prey, FBI Special Agent Barry Maddox said. Maddox is spokesman for the Baltimore field office, the base of the bureau's Innocent Images National Initiative, whose aims includes identifying, investigating and prosecuting Internet sexual predators.

Thomas' attorney Richard Reiling did not return calls for comment.
Fresh flower pedals were found on the bed in a hotel room one predator planned to use for a romantic evening with who he thought was a 13-year-old girl, Maddox said. The reality: the 13-year-old was an FBI agent. Other predators have bought lingerie in hopes their adolescent victims would model for them, Maddox said.

In Thomas' case, he told the girl he loved her and promised her a car, an apartment and a new life in Canada, police reports said. He showered her with gifts - an ankle bracelet, toe and finger rings, a hooded sweater, marijuana, spiked heels and lingerie.
"It's taboo. (Adolescents) want to try it. They think they can handle it," said Xenia police Detective Alonzo Wilson. "They think they love these guys. Once these guys get them hooked, it's hard to stop them."
Wilson is member of Xenia's Internet Child Protection Unit, which since 2000 has netted about 55 people accused of being Internet predators.

One Miami Valley girl said she was drawn by the mystique of a relationship with an older guy.
"Nicole" was a vulnerable, plump, friendless 12-year-old outcast when MBEALER1 began instant messaging her in an online game room in 1998. He said his name was Michael Bealer and he was 19 and from Oklahoma. Nicole, whose real name is not being used, was intrigued.
"He said all of the cool things. . . . I was just glad someone was paying me some attention," said Nicole, now 17. "Most little girls will take attention any way they can get it."

Over the next days, the conversation became sexual and cybersex began. Eventually, MBEALER1 asked Nicole to move to Quapaw, Okla., and to send him sexy photos and letters, authorities said.
"He built up to it," Nicole recalled. "He started asking questions. You can tell by the responses (how far someone will go)."

The relationship ended when Nicole's parents read an explicit letter she planned to mail to Michael Bealer, really Christopher M. Huston. They called Fairborn police.

It turned out the cool guy with the self-described long, red hair and hazel eyes lived in an efficiency apartment with his parents. Huston was convicted in Oklahoma of two counts of making indecent proposals to a minor and sentenced to a seven years in prison. Nicole's mother, "Karen", said she understands why her daughter was attracted.

"She had been lonely. She had it rough with kids picking on her all the time. I think those jerks just look for cracks," Karen said.

The mother of three didn't think her child could be victimized and had told her of Internet dangers. "I was really surprise that would happen in my house. I thought I would be on top of it," she said.

Joy Ott, a child psychologist at Children's Medical Center, said adolescents are particularly susceptible to the abuse because they are sexually curious, rebellious and feel they are invincible.

"Teenagers are always looking for someone that they feel understands them," she said. " (The predator) says, 'You're right. Your parents don't understand you. I understand you.' "

Some Internet predators live in a fantasy world, said Katya Gifford, a program director for Cyberangels.org, the Guardian Angels' online safety, education and help site.


The Internet provides some the arena to fulfill illicit desires, she said.

"It takes people faster into that fantasy and eventually, that fantasy takes them off line," she said. "(The predator) never would have acted on it in his own little town where everyone knows everybody."

For Thomas' 15-year-old victim, the face-to-face meeting turned into sex at a local hotel within walking distance of her high school, police said. For that, Thomas was convicted in Montgomery County on three counts each of corrupting another with drugs and unlawful sexual conduct with a minor. Thomas is in the Correctional Reception Center in Orient on the Montgomery County convictions.

He now faces trials on 31 counts of unlawful sexual conduct with a minor, three counts of rape and one
kidnapping charge in connection with meetings with the girl in Fairborn and Trumbull County.

Shortly after reporting her missing April 4, the 15-year-old's parents searched her school locker and found notes with information about Thomas, who was charged in 1998 with gross sexual imposition in Trumbull County.

Trumbull County sheriff deputies found notes on 145 Internet screen names with users' physical descriptions and contact information in Thomas' home, according to Riverside police reports. Officials also found letters from other underage girls and evidence that Thomas traveled to South Carolina to have sex with a teenage girl there, according to police.

[From the Dayton Daily News: 11.03.2003]

What's your point?

Their parents obviously never TAUGHT them how to be SAFE, which is exactly what I said parents should do.

You're not helping your case any.

If by 'wavier' you mean 'waver,' I am doing no such thing.

Or did you actually mean to say 'be wavier,' trying to imply that I should be straight?

:rolleyes:

The latter certainly wouldn't be totally inconceivable.

I am not helping my case any because some teen says so??? No, most of the time these parents were loving, caring parent, just like me and the millions of others out there, who gave their teens the freedom to do as they wished on the internet, thinking the whole time that all was well and that their teen would never make the wrong choices.

I am all about letting you idiots make the wrong choices, in fact it pleases me so I can tell you "I told you so", well not really because I would really never say that, but hey, you have to learn some how.

Yes, wavier, thank you. :D

Or we could be talking about crackers...

That's just nasty. I pity your children. You clearly believe that chidren do not count as people. Do you believe they get some magical revelation about life when they hit official adulthood? Or do you just not care once you no longer have a financial responsibility for them?

um. yikes.

by now you guys should know I really can't stand this kind of thing, so I'm grateful you moved it off thread.

and, as a mother, let me just observe that NOTHING, but NOTHING pisses people off like being told how to raise their own children.

Where do you get that from?

Do you mean that I do not want my 20 something children living off of me after they graduate from college? hell yes, I want them on their own.

My kids have been given three ultimatums after graduation from HS, 1. join the military of their choice; 2. go to college fully funded by me; 3. get the hell out and figure it out on your own.


How many people do you know that have their adult children living with them or off of them? Would I ever kick them to the curb if they were down and out? hell no, but I'm not telling them that. :p

I am rolling my eyes so hard at your idiocy that it hurts my sockets.

My daughter is six years old. She already knows that there are people on the internet that want to take her away from us. Because her mother and father have told her so (in appropriately couched language). My seven year old son not only knows better than to fill out personal info (all the kids sites want their address and birthday - but they are clever - they ask for the month and day in one place then their age in another so as to piece it together) but he knows why they want it and how they use it to his disadvantage. We have (hopefully) instilled a desire to withhold that information rather than simply preventing him from providing it.

Its a lot harder the way we do it. Sometimes I have to restrain myself when I see my son follow the links and end up on a video game site with games that I think are excessively violent and desensitizing. But rather than freak like he just found the Playboy channel in the middle of Debbie Does Dallas, I watch him play for a minute then give him some reasons to decide for himself that the game he is playing is not a wise use of his internet time.

I want my kids to learn how to make decisions. That's going to involve them making lots of mistakes. Hopefully, when Daddy is no longer around, they will remember what they have learned.

I think I'll leave you all now and go to bed.

Good luck, and have fun trying to get proper parenting skills through Merc's thick skull, Ibby!

:bye:

KMA, you are obviously not a parent.

Pra tell, what do you know about the product of my parenting???
How would you measure that?