The Smoking Gun
 

Most of you have seen stuff from a website called The Smoking gun. You may not have known it, but that's where most of the arrest booking pictures of celebrities come from.

Here is something different from them. This statement is followed by 12 pages of the drawings and pictures of the implements and victims that were still alive.
Do you need a warning?

The pics of the torture victims makes it more real...I wonder how bad it was for the ones that didn't survive. Gitmo seems so tame in comparison (not to excuse anything going on there).

Oh, go ahead and excuse it. Gitmo shows our nature; this shows theirs.

Defeat them. Accept no substitute for victory.

UG, do you think gitmo is a good example of american nature?

We did not torture anyone like this at Gitmo or at the Abu Ghraib prison... But the peace loving members of this group of Arabs gets a pass.

Hopefully this display of actual torture will be helpful to those Dwellars who label waterboarding and other such fraternity hazing-level activities as torture.

I think this is a classic case of desensitization. You look at blowtorches to the skin, and suddenly waterboarding seems harmless, almost quaint. It isn't. Any fraternity that tried it would find it's members doing 5-10 for assault.

Emphasis mine on ideally. One of the advantages of someplace like Guantanamo and 'secret prisons' is if a fatal heart attack does occur, a discreet disposal of the body is possible.

Some torture is REALLY bad, so ours isn't torture any longer? NOT!
Stupidest argument I've ever heard.

"Ideally" in that context sounds like a wiggle word, and I can't resist noticing that the "ideal" result of an eye gouging is, well, an eye gouged out. Hands up all who would rather be "ideally" water boarded over being "ideally" eye-gouged.

Neither is ideal.

Lesson #34, online debate: if you can't poke holes in a point, change it so that it's wrong, and then harshly disagree with it. Maybe nobody will notice!

Keep sayin' it... tap your heels together three times too.... perhaps that will work.

I think this is what happens to cultures whose religions don't allow representative art.

From what I understand this type of torture is just a different form of torture with different results in mind than the one's used at Gitmo so comparing them would be invalid.

Physical and psychological torture are two very different things and one is not worse than the other even though the outside effects may be very different.

I think the difference is psychological torture has different effects on different people. Some crack right away and some may take years to crack.

Physical torture has the same physical effect on everyone.

Some people can handle physical pain better than others.

I am not talking about resistance, I am saying they have different effects so they should not be compared as "what is worse?"

Yes they can, but removing an eye has the same effect on everyone...one less eye.

Well, anyway, Aliantha: yeah. It is. Gitmo shows our restraint -- even when the Gitmo prisoners try provoking our MP's by flinging piss on them from behind their cell bars. We do not shoot them for this. We're so cool.

Yay, Us.

You're kidding right? The psychological techniques used by the military are no different than those used by your local police.

Your police lock you in a room with no natural light, don't let you sleep by blasting metallica, deprive you of food, drench you with icy cold water to wash you, and all of that all without a set release date? I must know the wrong police officers...

I feel so sorry for you UG.

We should be doing neither, ever.

Don't. There is no need.

Where there is need, however, is for the breaking of all non-democracies. No other form of governance is remotely as legitimate as a democracy. Nondemocracies behave far worse than democracies do, as any perusal of current events will show. The world's troubles -- do they not have their origin exclusively from the less-than-democracies?

Pedant's note: I'm counting republics among the species of democracies.

some would view the united states as the source of their troubles.

It's all a matter of perspective UG. You should try and remember that once in a while.

There is accurate perspective, and there is inaccurate perspective.

You want a good world? You make democracy regardless of anything the fascists may say, do, or attempt. We democrats must prevail.

The smell of dead fascists rotting is but a momentary annoyance contrasted with democracy's ongoing benefits.

You're sounding a bit like the bloke who forgot to take his medication this morning UG. ;)

Actually, I did... but it's diabetes medication. And I took it this afternoon. :p

And it's still only a momentary annoyance.

That's why I'll always like George W. Bush: he eats more un-democrats for breakfast than all his counterparts put together manage all week.

Really? I thought he was a bit of a forgetful old man that probably likes softened oats more than anything as meaty as an 'undemocrat'.

Why, Ali, that would be... misunderestimating. ;)

This guy's idea of good clean, soul-cleansing fun is tending to his South Texas ranch, clearing brush and so on. Prolly agrees with Reagan that there is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. Wouldn't be surprised to discover he has about thirty kinds of bottled hot sauce -- and one or two favorites -- and quite a taste for San Antonio-style chili. They invented the stuff there about a century and a quarter back.

Well a good hot chilli would probably help keep the old codger regular. :)

More the beans than any actual Ring-of-Fire heat, but yeah.

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President, as a matter of comity with respect to the legislative and judicial branches and with proper respect for the constitutional separation of powers among the branches, to preserve the constitutional framework under which the Nation is governed and the capability of all three branches of government to execute constitutional responsibilities and provide for orderly succession, appropriate transition of leadership, and interoperability and support of the National Essential Functions during a catastrophic emergency;

Please place your own irony tags and consider Clintonian weasel words. Rule by decree? Oh oh I spy a non-democrat.

(h) "National Essential Functions," or "NEFs," means that subset of Government Functions that are necessary to lead and sustain the Nation during a catastrophic emergency and that, therefore, must be supported through COOP and COG capabilities; and

(c) "Continuity of Government," or "COG," means a coordinated effort within the Federal Government's executive branch to ensure that National Essential Functions continue to be performed during a Catastrophic Emergency;

(d) "Continuity of Operations," or "COOP," means an effort within individual executive departments and agencies to ensure that Primary Mission-Essential Functions continue to be performed during a wide range of emergencies, including localized acts of nature, accidents, and technological or attack-related emergencies;

you cant compare "Gitmo" with what these guys are doing, remember, alquada is a terrorist group, not an entire nation.

I'm puzzled by Griff's response to me, for it seems an answer to some other post, some other thread.

Clarification, Griff?

I think he was pointing out what Bush is supposed to be doing, but obviously isn't. Just a guess.

I was pointing out, in a really sloppy way due to thread cross-pollination, that we may not be dealing with a terribly democratic administration. This COG business, under the cover of need, creates some serious problems for separation of powers, that must be considered given the last two administrations' penchant for signing statements. As power has flowed to the executive, more and more legislative functions have been ceded. In a self-defined emergency, the Constitution would be completely ignored.

And nobody'll notice! Bar the gates, we've got a full-fledged Constitutional crisis!

Well either that or somebody is trying to figure out how a declaration of war could be passed, or whatever needs doing, with a real representative quota... if half of DC is nuked. You know, *avoiding* the dissolution of Democratic principles in a REAL emergency.

Unless... we've reached a bias circle here!

Bush is fascist!

How do you know?

Because he does fascist things!

How do you know the things are fascist?

Because it's Bush doin' em! Q.E.D., ya dummy!

The problem is this: Executive departments were charged with enforcing law not writing law. I know from reading education law that that is not how it works anymore or even has worked in a long time, because all the expertise is contained in the executive branch. This is not a deviation from but rather the continuation of a trend shifting power to the executive. This particular piece of paper should have come from legislative branch because it opens the door to bypassing them altogether. Maybe there is a specific authorization for this loosely worded document, but I've not seen it.

To reference your other thread, I am rooting against Bush, since he is obviously insane (yay! let's go after Russia and Iran now that Iraq is all set). Mainly, however, I'm rooting for Congress to grow some hair and stand up to the office. Maybe activist governments inevitably consolidate power, but I'd prefer to see balance.

HEY!! You forgot me!

Their dispicable behavior doesn't make our behavior ok.

Fraternity hazing. Wow.