You Go Boy, Drop That Pump
 

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/25/gas....ap/index.html

Fed up station owner shuts off gas pumps

Boo hoo.

Poor Mr. Schwartz. He's got the pieces, but can't seem to put them together. :headshake

It is hard serving people who earn so much more money than you. Poor chap can't afford to fill up his SUV and yet one of his customers can afford to drive 10 miles out of her way just to buy a soda. Must be tough.

He's trying to make a point, shame so many are missing it. Or are you willing to pay higher prices just to see suv owners get fucked?

What he's doing (did) won't help in itself. But if he makes an impression on enough people, people that will say fuck this, I'm going to make a conscious effort to buy (use) less gas. Then he's a hero.

What's amazing is that the system is geared to his disadvantage. Everyone else in the chain, the government, the credit card companies, etc, works on a percentage. His markup is probably the same 8-12 cents a gallon whether gas is $2 or $4 per gallon. However, if there is such a thing as shrinkage, the loss of gas through evaporation (hopefully not), theft, etc, then those costs will continue to rise. He may end up making the same flat price on a more and more expensive product.

Making a $4 markup on a $20 watch is not too bad. Making a $4 markup on a $400 watch is a reason to walk away.

Yes.

Buying less gas means buying less everything - which can be really hard when everything is shipped from china, over-packaged, and designed to break 2 days after the warranty expires. The gas you put in your vehicle is a small part of a huge picture. Buying a prius is a finger in the dyke solution.


Brilliant. Really. :rolleyes:

People who have issues with SUVs crack me up. Ill informed and narrow minded.

We loved our H2's. Great truck. Great tax break as well!

And our H3 gets better mileage then our van and truck... people are idiots.

I don't have issues with SUVs, myself. I do have issues with people who buy gas-guzzlers and then complain about the price of gas. In the grand scheme of the middle class budget, as well as compared to the rest of the world, our gas prices are irrelevantly low. When people change their buying habits because of the price of gas--not bitch and moan about how they'll have to change soon, but actually change them--then gas prices will be relevant.

Gas costs what it costs. Paying too close attention to the day-to-day fluctuations is just going to give you high blood pressure. The price will forever continue to go up because of inflation, while the inflation-adjusted price will most likely cycle downward in another 4 or 5 years when our relationship with the mideast hits another stride. Meanwhile, alternative energies will continue to be refined, and even in the absence of innovation may eventually become more affordable by comparison if nothing else.

This guy may have a legitimate point, especially in regards to how small gas station owners get screwed by tiny margins while the oil suppliers get rich, but his protest had about as much effect as a car ribbon.

Gas is still cheaper than Coke. Which is water. From a hose. And some other stuff that costs about three cents.

I assumed, jinx, that you wanted an honest response. That was about as straight an answer as I could give.

I'm certainly willing to listen to someone who can explain why increasing fuel consumption isn't a significant factor in high gas prices. Refineries are running at capacity; oil output from most of the world's oil fields is running near capacity; American average fuel efficiency has been declining for many years - largely due to increased use of SUVs, vans and trucks - meaning more fuel use. So, if the drivers of high consumption vehicles (which I would arbitrarily say would be anything that gets less than 20 mpg) are a major contributing factor in high gas prices, they should suffer the effects of those high prices.

If you are concerned about the price of gas, the simple solution is to use less - either by driving less or by driving a vehicle that doesn't need as much gas. To drive 15,000 miles in a car getting 67 miles per gallon requires 224 gallons. To drive the same 15,000 miles in a car getting 15 mpg would use 1000 gallons. At $3.30/gallon, the SUV cost an extra $2500 to drive that same distance. Alternatively, the SUV could go 3,360 miles on the amount of gas that the Insight used to go 15,000 miles.

Below, I've quoted some of the responses from SUV owners, which are, so far, defensive, and don't explain why high consumption vehicles aren't responsible for the increased prices.

I didn't quote Clodfobble or Beestie, but I thought that they made some good points.

[In the interest of full disclosure - I worked as an engineer in the automotive industry for 14 years. I became frustrated that they had no interest in fuel-efficient vehicles, so I left and started over in renewable energy.]

The obvious American solution is to add yet another vehicle to the family's fleet.

Kitsune, that's exactly what I did 4 years ago when I bought the Insight. I kept my truck for those days when we get 2 feet of snow and I have to go to work. I put an average of about 1,000 miles a year on the truck and 9,000 on the Insight.

Do you disagree with the article that it doesn't really make financial sense?

Depending on one's driving habits, it might make sense. Really, though, if you have a car, what is the point of also owning an SUV?

Kitsune - when I bought my Insight in 2003 I went through the financial analysis and figured that I wouldn't be saving any money (at least during the first five years while I was paying off the loan), unless gas went to $4/gallon. If I sold my truck (a Ford Ranger) the economics would have been positive at about $3/gallon, and I was planning to do that, but we have too many days where I wouldn't be able to get to work in the Insight. (I live in the foothills west of Denver at 7,800 feet.)

As you mentioned, the economic analysis really depends on what you're comparing. It might be tough to justify purchasing a new Prius versus keeping an existing SUV, but if your choice is purchase a new Prius vs. purchase a new SUV, the Prius will save money both in the purchase cost and in the operational costs. If you're putting 20,000 miles per year on a truck that gets 15 mpg at $3.30 per gallon, you'll spend $4400 per year on gas. If you drive the same mileage in a Prius getting 55 mpg, you'll spend $3200 per year less. If the incremental cost of the Prius over some period of time (say 10 years), including fuel and insurance costs, is less than the comparable costs in the SUV, then it makes economic sense.

But there might be other reasons, beyond economics, to switch to a small car. They're easier to drive, easier to park, and handle better. One thing that I like about the Insight is that it can go 600 to 800 miles on a tank of gas, so I spend less time at the gas station.

A Corvette driver once made a comment to me that the Insight wouldn't pay for itself, and I said "But the Corvette will?" I didn't understand his logic, because he didn't have any.

2 years into truck ownership I do wish I had a car half the time. Commuting, the city, short trips, it's much easier to get around. But when I had the car, I wished I had a truck half the time. Hauling my bass gear, hauling big loads, running over rough terrain, 4x4 in bad conditions.

I think the answer would be to get a small car and an old used truck. Barring that, a really cool ute like the Infiniti FX.

I've always had a van or an SUV for the purpose of hauling drum equipment and/or construction materials. I have found, however, that I can pack a full kit into my wife's Honda.

Construction materials are trickier; folding the rear seat down and using the trunk and cab together, or running 2x4s diaganolly across the cab can get some jobs done in a pinch, for others I have to borrow my dad's truck (my jeep isn't running).

My dad's truck, btw, is an extended cab, duallie Dodge w/ the Cummings turbo diesel. He has it specifically because he is moving back to the country when he retires and he actually needs it to haul tractors, bulldozers, etc.

Flint, I think that you have the right idea - own a small car and borrow a truck when you need it. I occasionally lend mine to friends who are moving or need to pick up some large or dirty object that they don't want to put in their car.

Does anyone still make something like the El Camino? I know that Subaru was selling something along that line (the Justy?). That might be a good option for Undertoad.

I will be leasing a Chevrolet Avalanche come fall. I will need the extra room and power and 4x4 since I will be living in the desert, fighting flash floods, high winds and drifting sand. I will be hauling trailers, large items and sometimes several passengers.

I chose leasing over buying because of the low miles I intend to be driving, lower payments, new truck every few years instead of the same old one, (hopefully) better dealer service and improvement of my credit rating. The last is told to me by my accountant who seems to know what he's talking about but I fail to see how. But what the heck do I know about financial stuff? All I do is balance my checkbook now and then, plan a monthly budget and watch my savings account.

My loved one likes the option of having the truck in cetain cases as well as having the spare around for when hers needs to go in for repairs. But she's more happy with her minivan. I hide when we drive in it. LOL

BrianR, not to get off-topic, but what will you be doing in the desert? It sounds interesting.

http://fox.org/~vince/out/ute.jpg
"What's a ute?"

Nonsense. You need to connect the dots. The issue I have is with people who whine about paying a small fraction of the true costs of their vehicle at the pump. Next time you get pissed when some hippie flips you off in traffic, remember that your POS Hummer is a powerful symbol of your support for the Bush agenda. I am being subsidized in blood and taxes as well, but at least I acknowlege it and would prefer not to pass the cost on to someone else.

A vehicle is not a symbol of support of any administration. Gas hogs have been around for much, much longer than the current one. They are status symbols for some, mere transportation for others. I know people on both sides. A single buddy who drives a Mercedes G-class to his office job everyday - serious gas sucker - doesn't give a rat's ass about the EPA numbers on his baby. To him, it just states "I make more money than you." I also have friends with large families. 5 kids and 2 adults will not fit into a Prius no matter how much one wants it to happen.

The gas prices may stay up and the public and automakers will adjust. Or, they could drop again. Compare gas prices of the late 70's and early 80's with those in the early 90's. Big difference. Either way, those who care about their care are going to drive what they want to drive and make adjustments in other areas of their lives.

The whining won't be permanent and it is not always from the SUV owners. I drive a car which gets 26 miles to the gallon and I complain about the price.

Yes, but you're a Cantankerous Incantonator.

And cheap.

Pissed? Hardly, I just pity them for being stupid, uninformed and deluded.
Because the manufacturing was already in place for it, the H3 has a smaller carbon footprint, per mile, than any hybrid SUV.
Read that little fact in an article in here.

That's a weird way to compare them. Manufacturing costs should be amortized over the life of the factory. They don't count just for the first generation of vehicles to come out of the factory. Using that standard, you could just as easily say that the first vehicle out of the plant cost billions and the second was just the cost of materials and labor.

I don't see your link, but I hope it isn't to that faulty CNW "research" everyone always talks about.

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about people driving gas hogs and whining about the price of gas, while good folks die in the sand. You must be having a different argument.

newguy- Everybody has their reasons, I have a gas sucking 4x4 pickup for farm stuff and a life endangering Echo for town driving. I just can't see whining about the price of gas when the only squeeze you (not you in particular) feel is because you chose poorly at the car lot. Folks need to align their vehicle choice with their reality. If rage can't afford a status only vehicle like a hummer he should park it. If we continue to subsidize gas, we are putting innovation on the back burner.

Griff - I certainly agree with you there.

Status only? You have no idea why we have the vehicle. Speak of what you know.
It still gets better mileage than our truck, the truck before, our van and the SUV we used to have and our neighbor's SUV... speak of what you know.
Again, people who bitch about Hummers are clueless and good to laugh at.

UT's cartoon made me wonder, so here's some thread drift:

Beef Production myths. And it's from an unbiased source*.

Tonight I'll eat a double bacon cheeseburger.

The Hummer is an easy target because the original ones were huge and simply a status symbol with little or no real need. Now, it is a different story. I would hope people are only using it as a type. If not, they should visit a site with the consumption numbers and use something more relevant.

Personally, I think they are ugly. That is not a crime against the environment. Only my eyes. But, there are many who think the same of my Camry.

We feed ours all kinds of stuff, none of which humans eat, a lot of industrial leftovers, pulp from orange juicing and beer mash, stuff like that.

Again sorry, didn't realize you were fighting jihadists in sunny Florida. I want to make it clear that people can drive what they want, just quit it with the waaa waaa when Exxon bends you over the hood of your eyesore.

The one one whining is you about other people's vehicles.
Shame you can't read, our gas mileage improved over the last vehicles we replaced with it and our current ones. You might try hooked on phonics.

Not exactly, the factory can be amortized over the life of the factory, but the tooling for each specific model is amortized for that model. I think the tooling costs far exceed the factory cost.

When I say tooling, I'm including all the costs to design, refine and test the model prior to production as well as the specific tooling to manufacture it. The factory is just a box to keep the weather off the expensive shit.

UT's observation about needing two types of vehicles and often wishing you had worn the other one on that day, has led to the popularity of the short bed, 4 door, pickups. If you can't afford two vehicles that do their alloted tasks well, get one that does neither well.

Don't overlook the value of a utility trailer for occasional hauling, although most people would have to learn how to use it.

Yes, but just as you can reuse some of the tooling from a previous version of the Hummer, you can reuse some of the tooling you come up with for the new hybrid in future hybrids. And there is plenty of new stuff in the H3 that isn't carried over from older versions, just as there will be in future hybrids.

What I was saying is that it's silly to penalize hybrids for being at the beginning of their amortization terms. Using that logic, we should still be in Model-Ts, to avoid the costs of retooling the factories.

Whether the cost is measured in dollars or carbon, it's expensive to bring in a new technology.

awesome mileage:rolleyes:

You are a joy to bait rage. Anyway your other vehicles must've been pretty poor performers if the .gov numbers are reliable.

Fuel Type Regular
MPG (city) 14
MPG (highway) 18
MPG (combined) 16

Please just take one thing from this exchange. We are laying claim to someone else's production every time we fill our gas tanks. We are not making a free exchange, we are taking, by force, the results of their labor.

Your numbers are off, ours is an 07, Hwy it gets 27, city 17. We have tested it several times.
I am buying gas from the person behind the counter.
You cannot bait someone who could care less about you.

2007

14/18mpg

Which is not what our actually gets.
Man, you really gotta work on that reading.
I bet there are programs in your area.

For the 2003 Insight, fueleconomy.gov lists the mileage as 48 city, 59 highway, 53 combined, but I have consistently averaged 66 mpg or higher in mixed driving, with lots of up and down (altitude, I mean - home is about 2500 feet higher than work).

The "MPG Estimates from Drivers Like You" section lists mileage of 68 in real-world driving, but it might be that only those with very high mileage are likely to enter their data.

A point to rkzenrage.

Of course. Today, the lives of Americans are so dramatically different from twenty years ago that the average family cannot get by with a mid-size car as the previous generation was once able to do with ease. The commutes of 2007 are nothing like our predecessors could have dreamed! The smooth, paved roads of the 1980s that once ferried families out for a comfortable drive to the grocery store for weekly shopping are now a driver's battlefield of washouts, boulders, and other off road trials that only an H2 can handle.

Of course, I'm kidding -- H2s and their low Tahoe chassis have as much to do with off roading as, well, Chevy Tahoes.

This is all besides the point, however, and the real story is about a dense gas station owner that shut down to "help the consumer" by, uh, removing one more piece of local competition so other stations can raise their prices. Good job, dumbass. That'll show 'em!

Maybe he is right. We can only hope that prices continue to go up, now, to encourage some alternatives so we can cut away from this addiction that has only one possible end. Sick of high gas prices? Tired of paying out a chunk of your paycheck so you can drive your car thirty-five miles, alone, to your job downtown from your beautiful suburbs? Shut up and ditch the SUV, move closer to town, start conserving, or all of the above. It's only going to get worse.

Excellent first paragraph. Point to Kitsune.

Not really interesting as such. My future wife lives in a desert due to severe arthritis and flatly refuses to move to me and get hooked on painkillers again. Women! Go figure! :lol:

No, no, no, he was trying to make a statement, but nobody got it.

You're mileage may vary.

As I understand it from pros that test these things, the H-2 is as capable off road, as any vehicle on the market including the CJ, except the H-1.

How heavy a trailer will it tow?
How many kegs of beer and cases of chips will it hold?
How many suitcases can a family of 4, take to Wally World?
How far up the fire trail, to the hunting/fishing lodge, will it climb?
How many surf fishing rod holders will the front bumper handle.
Does bringing 500 lbs of salt home, as I did today, effect the mileage?

At the price of vehicles these days, very few can afford a complete set of them. That means most have to find the Crescent (adjustable) Wrench or Vice-Grips, that will do what they want to do, the best.

A two car family has the luxury of splitting the duties between vehicles, but the reality is, in many families both get driven to work. Even when only the husband works, unless you marry Jinx, the wife wants the lighter duty, more mileage vehicle for her kid taxi.*

To me, the Prius looks like a one-trick pony that wouldn't serve my needs(wants) very well. Besides, it doesn't look good on me.


*Yeah, I know, sexist stereotyping. It's just an example, deal with it.

Why on earth wouldnt you want one?!

http://www.paulgilbert.com/Judas.Prius.jpg

http://www.paulgilbert.com/Judas.Prius.logo.jpg

Why don't people who buy these vehicles and use them 99.99% of the time to haul their sole ass to and from work everyday ask themselves this question after asking all of those: How often will I really do those things and would it be cheaper to rent a vehicle when I need to?

xoB, sorry for the confusion, I wasn't very clear. I was just saying that it is possible to get mileage significantly better than indicated by the EPA numbers.

But I have taken it to the top of the highest paved road in the US.

It sounds like you have a very active lifestyle. But you might want to work on reducing your salt intake. I hear it's bad for your blood pressure.

But...it doesn't take me about five or six gallons of Coke a day just to earn a living and discharge my other duties and activities.

Yes, and that's why I ended up with... uh... um...

aw crap

What a load of crap. When people flipped me off in my H2 I just ran em off the road. Idiots. That is some screwed up logic assumptions there...

No apology necessary, no confusion either. I just snagged your post to comment, while big mileage numbers sound desirable...especially now... it's only one of the criteria most people are up against. People can cut their fuel bill, and be politically correct, by trading their ride for a super mileage vehicle.... piece of cake. But, it's best to be aware of lifestyle changes necessitated by such a move. Better than doing it, then having the, "OH shit" moment.
That said, if they're getting 12mpg chances are they can't afford to do that stuff anyway. Everyone has to find their balance of priorities
Mount Evans? Not me, I live vicariously through the adventures posted here in the Cellar. You'll be eating those words when the giant slug invasion starts.