The doom of the rich, the blessing of the poor
 

James 5:1-6 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. (2) Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. (3) Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. (4) Behold, the hire of the laborers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. (5) Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. (6) Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.


Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (23) And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 John 3:16-18 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Luke 6:24-26 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (25) Woe unto you that are full for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. (26) Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.


Are any of you rich? Sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then follow Lord Jesus. He is risen.

mmm k

I see you have access to a computer, Gannet. That puts you in the wealthiest 10% of the world population. I'd be worried if I were you.

There's a test around here somewhere that shows just how wealthy you are, comparatively. Lets see if I can find it.

......but the thing I don't get is.....if the wealthy sell 'all that [they] have' to give to the poor.....then they'll have nothing left and they'll be the poor....the poor meanwhile, have done quite nicely out of the deal (the ones who were near enough to the crazy rich people to benefit that is).

I'm not really sure that solves the problem.....Gannet, have you considered the relative benefits of a responsible social security network, coupled with ethical trading laws and standards as a less drastic solution? Requires rather more political engagement, and rather less personal disavowal of wealth and the adoption of hair shirts (optional) than the other idea, but it might be more sustainable.

Vote DanaC for Lord and Savior! ;)

You're right, if I give my meager belongings to the poor then I become the poor and the poor become, well, me. More than poor but less then wealthy. Where do we fit into the scenario? Is there like a heaven holding tank where we'll go on the day of reckonin'?

Well, I couldn't find the Cellar thread on how rich we all are, but here's a test to put it in perspective. I'm in the 99th percentile, according to this. Where are you Gannet?

Its the priciple of communism - just give everything to everyone else - all can share what some of us worked for. Never works. I give to charity and always do random acts of kindness, but I cannot accept that principle - seems to dysfunctional to me.

I really hope I don't burn in hell for saying that.

Ok, then give me all your stuff glatt :D

but then you'll have to give it right back, because I'll be poor.

I am in the 99th percentile!

WoooHooo! I think I will quit my job and relax in my riches! I can even get one of those poodles as big as my Bentley as shown on the website.

That really isn't the principle of communism.

I know Dana, it was, just, well, seemed right at the time

- sorry to offend.:redface:

*chuckles* not remotely offended m'dear:P

God & Jesus give me choices.... you give me orders.
God & Jesus go to heaven... you can go to hell.

Joel Osteen says da' lard wants me to be rich so I can be extra happy, God loves me and wants me to have a big house and pool & gives him mo money.
He seems pretty smart and has shiny teefus...
I'm confused. :whofart:

I likes Luke too, my favorite is 14:26.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...533448,00.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/.../137-41.0.html

From the Time link. From the Christianity Today link.
No they don't all agree, any more than all of any other religion, or group, for that matter.

Osteen is a boob, have you ever watched him preach? Half the time all he is doing is bragging.

No, I haven't watched him..... or any of the other TV preachers. Since you are not a Christian, why are you watching him?

I've watched Joel Osteen several times - most of his sermons are more on the "uplifting" type side - he's an encourager to people. Not to say he doesn't get the basic message across, but he does it without blood vessels popping out on his face and his eyes bugging.

Because people can watch whatever the fuck they want? . . . What are you, the TV Police?

Pipe down, Fido.
I simply asked him why he watches if it bothers him. I don't believe it's required yet.
If he was hitting himself with a hammer, I'd also question that.

???
 

#3, junkyard dog in response to a simple question.

Nice of you to "have the guts" to say so.

I repeat my original response: are you the TV Police?

Could it be that you want to "disqualify" people who disagree with you on that particular subject from having an opinion on that particular subject; IE "Why should he have anything to say about that? He's not a member of the club!" ... ??? ...

Everything is a "simple" question, if we all share an identical perspective. But, since we don't, nothing is a "simple" question.

Yes it was a simple question.
It obviously annoys him and he has no reason he has to watch that dork.
I find changing the channel to be 100% effective in those situations. I do it for Dr Phil, that Nun with the eye patch, and of course all that's pornographic.

OK, that last one might be stretching it a little.

I don't know that he doesn't have some reason to watch it. I can say that I don't agree with much of Christian messages, but I can get something out of them, if only that they provide food for thought.

Maybe I'm mulling over my interpretation of the materials, that they are presenting in a different way. Maybe I'm interested in trying to understand how they reached the conclusions they did. Maybe I find a common ground, and realize that we're saying the same things, with different terminology.

Maybe, in the case of a guy who is always talking about the seperation of Church and State, he might have some reason to study the philosophy of the people who will be passing the laws that will get crammed down his throat. That's a likely perspective.

At any rate, I think a wholesale avoidance of things that we disagree with is a horrible policy. So, in that sense, he should be watching the preacher that annoys him. Nobody gets anywhere by staying in their comfort zone, only subjecting themselves to things that they already agree with.

On the other hand, watching a bad example of something you say you disagree with, just to reinforce your objections, isn't exactly productive either.

However you slice it, it isn't a simple question at all. Let me rephrase that: it doesn't have a simple answer.

Actually, I am the TV Police.
I'm watching what you're watching Flint - watch out.

I've watched him once when my mother had him on. He dosn't make me cringe and is mild enough. As you say his messages are on the 'uplifting side' I am pessimisstic enough about TV evangelists to wonder when he too will be corrupted like the rest. I hope not.

If it did, I'd be able to figure it out myself, without asking him.

You'll be watching some gay pr0n now, then?

Intriguing.

I agree with Flint on this one. If I want to watch High School Music for the 4th time in a month then shiet, I will, for the complex reason of no particular reason.

Fine, watch it all you want. But if you then come here and bitch about how annoying it is, expect someone to question why you keep watching it. Duh

I notice that sometimes people say they agree with flint but they never say which part of what is said they are agreeing with.

I understand your interpretaton of what you think he said though Fress. No disrepect just an observation.

Bruce wasn't being a total ass. He did through some humor in there I saw that much and he wasn't the first one to throw a jab either. It was a relavant question in light of the obssession with christianity.

I didn't think Rk was bitching, or did I get that wrong. I'm seriously merely asking.

That's why I was merely asking him a question instead of giving him a raft of shit.

Who says he hasn't already been?

It just bothers me that these guys get rich as shit from typically poor uneducated people.

Know thy enemy. Plus, I find him in particular, to be hilarious, he's an idiot.

OK, entertainment value... they are good for that.

Act 2:40-47
(40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
(41) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
(42) And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
(43) And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
(44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
(45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
(46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
(47) Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

v44: the BELIEVERS had ALL THINGS COMMON

The doctrine of selling what you have to give to the poor is not something that CAN OR SHOULD be implemented on a state level, or else, yes, it would be communism (to some extent). The -willing- (believers) of the doctrine of the apostles, as described in Acts and also mentioned by Jesus, were the ones that sold all and SHARED all as each had need.

So yes, if a rich person sells all and gives to the poor, they too become poor, but then they also find themselves with several benefits:

1) more friends (Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.)

2) reward in heaven: (Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you, good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.)

3) a clear conscience, especially if you have gained your wealth from deceit and robbery, and you will also ease the plight of the poor around you, which should hopefully make you feel good about yourself.

4) in the early church, it was not just 1 person selling all, there were multiple people laying their wealth at the feet of the apostles, which was then distributed to all IN the church, and they ALL worked to make money, so that when ONE part of the body of Christ was in lack, it could be supplemented by ANOTHER (richer in material wealth) part which lacked not.

Thus leading the church into greater unity, as Jesus intended, and causing the people in that church to have a vested interest in the church and in one another. They, having stored their treasures in heaven through GIVING (giving is like putting your money into an eternal bank), then focus their thoughts on Jesus and the less fortunate among them, loving one another AS themselves.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Do you wish men would give you $5 if they have lots of extra money? Then the law, according to God here in v7:12, is that you give to others. Whatsoever you would have men do unto you. Would you have someone compliment you on your clothing or whatever? Do it to someone else first. That's the essence of love, and that's why giving everything away isn't as preposterous of an idea as it sounds. I'll address some of your other replies in an upcoming post.

But consider, if you see some preacher on tv, and he's filthy rich, do you really think the love of God dwells in him?? when there are so many poor there? that is why the power of God has left large portions of the church and healings no longer occur, because God is very irritated at the "prosperity" movement as some call it.

What is the VERY FIRST part of the sermon on the mount??

(Mat 5:3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Luk 6:20) And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

The poor are blessed. But the rich? who have everything they need in this life, all the comfort, all that consolation?

Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

You can either have it here or there. Here lasts 120y or so max, there lasts an eternity. So, --- GIVE --- and put your treasures in heaven. Help those in need. Is that such a foreign concept to you all?

> It just bothers me that these guys get rich as shit from typically poor uneducated people.

You and God both... but God will repay them for their own lack of charity and their hypocrisy. He knows who belongs to him.

Giving, and helping those in need is not a foreign concept to most people on this forum. I give and I try to help those in need, as best I am able. I do not do this because I have hopes of investing in some mythical, eternal, afterlife.

Luke!... you quote Luke where Jesus tells us to hate our parents and kids?
LOL!!!

> Luke!... you quote Luke where Jesus tells us to hate our parents and kids?

In comparison to our love for God, who MADE us [and our parents and kids], it should be far greater than our love for any other being. Even if we can't see God, we know he made us, and he made everything we enjoy, see, touch, etc, so as such our love for our parents (etc) should be, in comparison, hate, compared to how much we love God. However we're equally commanded to love others as Jesus has loved us. You understand the teaching method of exaggeration yes? That's what Jesus was using in Luke. Much like he talked about cutting off one's own hand rather than ever sin with that hand again, it is a style of teaching used to emphasize the dire importance and necessity of a given doctrine (i.e. loving God, or in the latter case, stopping sinning/repenting).

> Giving, and helping those in need is not a foreign concept to most people on this forum. I give and I try to help those in need, as best I am able. I do not do this because I have hopes of investing in some mythical, eternal, afterlife.

So, what, do you just suppose that anyone who has ever committed a crime, but was never caught by police for it, will simply die and stop existing and just get away with it? There is a final day of judgment, and the afterlife is no more mythical than I am.

.

Yip. That's pretty much how I see it. I mean, I don't know, they may spend a few years of life tormented by guilt and the fear that they'll burn in Hell for all eternity....depends on how great the crime and what faith they follow, but other than that, yip.

Yes.

Nicely done HM.