What's wrong with my knee?
 

The dwellar community has proven to be very adept at identifying medical conditions, so I'm hoping the body of orthopedic knowledge is just as extensive.

I've had knee problems ever since I was maybe 10. It took very little for me to overexert them and have general pain or soreness for a few days. But it always cleared up. At one point my mother actually took me to an orthopedist, and he told me I just needed to correct my walk (I had apparently been pointing my toes slightly outward.) I did, and it seemed to help at the time, but they were still weak and easy-to-injure.

Nowadays, the tendons in my right knee pop and snap every time I go up or down stairs. I guess it started sometime around when I was having the initial problems as a teen, but I really can't remember when, they've just always done it. There are times when it's better or worse, but with every step you can literally hear the gooey joint noises in my right knee. (At one place I used to work, a coworker was unable to be in the stairwell with me, because she was grossed out by that sort of thing.) It definitely doesn't hurt, but I guess you could say it's uncomfortable. I do feel like I have to favor that knee and take stairs carefully.

We used to joke about how I was so creaky I would be in a wheelchair by the time I was 30, but it was never bad enough to bother seeing a doctor. But a year ago, we moved into a two-story house, and then I started carrying an extra 35 pounds up and down while I was pregnant, and now I'm still carrying a 14-lb. baby most of the time, which is actually the worst because it's on one side and I'm unbalanced. And... my left knee tendons have started snapping. Not as bad as the right knee yet, but it's not going away either.

I'm pretty sure it's going to require surgery someday, but the question is how soon? I've heard of torn ACLs, and a torn miniscus, but this doesn't hurt like either of those are supposed to. I guess it's possible that was what the pain was way back as a teen, and now it's sort of healed-but-not-really. I'm inclined to keep ignoring it--I suppose I may be making it worse by waiting, but at the same time it's been like this for over a decade, and I can't take care of four kids if I'm laid-up in bed recovering from knee surgery. I guess I might be able to schedule it over the holidays or something when Mr. Clod could take time off work, but we also really can't afford 20% of another surgical procedure right now anyway.

Any idea what the malady is, so I can at least research what kind of risks I'm taking by waiting?

Interested to hear the answer. My knees pop & click on the stairs, although it is mostly downstairs for me. And yes I had a colleague who was disgusted by it and would only walk with me if there was loud conversation.

I used to find that if I tried to run from walking or standing I would get a blinding pain in one or both knees. I still get it now but I run less... On cold mornings I can get it if I just start to walk a little faster, like to hurry across a road.

I went to see my doctor when I was about 17 and he suggested it was something to do with not warming up properly. I couldn't get him to understand that I wasn't trying to start jogging - I was just running for a bus, and no-one else around me pulled up short with a gasp of pain.

I was much MUCH smaller and fitter then. But my knees are about the same now.

Is it only your knees, or do you have other joint weirdness? Like can you do double jointed finger tricks and things like that?

Clodfobble, do you have flat feet, fallen arches or heel pain?

pretty normal for your joints to be affected during pregnancy. I think I would first consult with a chiropractor, to address gait or unbalancing problems.

Maybe I should, too.

I pop all my knuckles, toes, and my neck compulsively, and on rare occasions my elbows too. But I can "pop" my knees in the traditional fashion too. None of my other joints make noises without my impetus. I have pulled my elbow joint or made it sore on a few occasions, but those are always connected with specific actions--like, I had to quick pull a toddler up and into the car with one arm before he tried to run off into the street--and I don't think I strain them any more than the average person would.

I think I have abnormally tall arches, actually. Standing flat on my feet it looks like I have a good 1 to 1.5 centimeters of clearance underneath. When my feet are propped up and totally relaxed, the toes are still drawn back a bit as if I'm flexing them. They've always been like that. I do walk as if I were flat-footed--I tend to put the whole foot down, rather than rolling forward from my heel, and sometimes I even put the toe down first. I've had some heel pain in the past (first thing in the morning like plantar fasciitis,) but it was mostly during pregnancy and always went away after a few days.

Do you bruise easily?

...Yes.

Hmm.

Odds are you don't have this, because it's very rare, but Ehlers Danlos is a genetic disorder where the collagen is defective. "Symptoms can include easy bruising, velvety-smooth skin, mildly hyperextensible skin, and loose, unstable joints."

My mom has it. For her, the symptoms are easy bruising and crooked fingers. It's genetic. Do any of your blood relatives have similar symptoms?

I didn't read any of this thread, but the solution is apple cider vinegar.

Interesting. By crooked fingers, do you mean little stuff like this, or more severe?

http://cellar.org/2008/fingers1.JPG
http://cellar.org/2008/fingers2.JPG

As a side note, it is really freaking hard to take a picture of your own hands.

Also, from your link:

I had big old ganglion cysts on my wrists as a kid.

Check and check. I have little broken blood vessels everywhere, and we joke about my "lightning bolts" on my chest. Very interesting. On the other hand, the wiki article doesn't mention any treatment options other than pain medication for the painful joints. So it's not like they could do anything about it even if it turned out I had it, right?

yep. pretty much exactly like that. Well, one of her fingers is a little more severe, but close enough. And she bruises really easy. She also has the soft skin. She never had knee problems though.

Yeah, the deal with Ehlers-Danlos is that you just realize that you are more susceptible to certain types of injuries because your connective tissue is messed up, so you learn to be aware of your joints and don't stress them. There is no cure.

My mom doesn't have it too bad, but there are really severe cases of it out there.

The key though is that it's hereditary, so you should think about if any relatives have similar symptoms. And it's quite rare, so statistically speaking, your chances of having it are slim. You may just have something similar.

CF prob best to go ahead and get to the doc. I thought I just had a weak, tender knee but finally the issue got bad enough I went and had it checked out, turned out I have a loose chunk of bone rolling around there. Your issue sounds like it could be much more serious. I google reviews for docs on my insurance list until I find one I like or ask friends/family for reference when I need a dif doc than my normal one.

Plus, apple cider vinegar

Check
CHECK!
Check

As it's rare I very much doubt I have it - also the bruising comes down my Mum's side and the crokedness and cracking come down my Dad's. No special diseases for me, just clicking, popping and bruising.

BTW Clod, I crack my knees and ankles when I'm in meetings, by respectively twisting my calves and streching my feet. I am aware that it is grim to other people, so I'll often try to disguise the noise. And to think all some people have to worry about is farting!

I have one on my wrist. The kind you're supposed to pitch a book at.

fixed for you

Clodfobble, try this experiment: stand comfortably, balanced on both feet, with someone nearby to monitor. Now close your eyes and relax. Have your monitor note whether or not you remain still or must make constant adjustments to stay vertical. My brother, who is deaf, had years of inner ear issues before he lost his hearing. Turns out many Deaf folk have bad knees from many years of making those constant adjustments as the brain was informed by visual information given by the eyes, but we never learned of the relationship prior to his experiences - we thought bad knees were a family thing. If it's an inner ear thing with you then finding out now won't help your knees recover, but attending to your inner ears may help prevent further damage. And you can inform the other family members and ease your worries. It's an easy test. Best wishes.

Yea. My knees have always popped and I've always wondered what that is going to lead to. It's actually never bothered me, but I always have been sure that it wasn't going to lead to anything good late in life. Then again, I never was sure I was going to make it to a late life.

have you tried the apple cider vinegar (the good kind, with the "mother" in it) and honey tonic?

We are on an apple ranch. There isn't much that I haven't tried with apples.
:D

um . . . like Plasticman?

:lol:

Sweetwater, I have hearing issues, as does my Dad.

I've always associated it with my terrible balance, I used to show myself up in Drama workshops and at yoga all the time. In fact when I had long hair I used to toss my head to get it out of my eyes and nearly fall over.

In my case I think it's more to do with having over-extended joints, but it's an interesting point.

That's an interesting connection, from poor hearing to poor balance to bad knees. I never would have thought of it. But my balance is usually pretty good (unless my knee or ankle gives out unexpectedly) and my hearing is excellent, audio is kind of my livelihood. :) I did rhe test out of curiosity, and I don't sway to keep balance, but I do lock and unlock my knees fairly frequently.

I may not have been very clear. It's an inner ear and therefore balance issue that forces one to rely on visual clues to maintain balance, and that forces knees to constantly make adjustments, and that excess wear and tear on the knees causes problems. One can hear fine and have inner ear problems. It's just fairly common to have sore knees when the balance is off, and that test (standing with eyes closed) deprives the brain of visual cues making the problem easier to pinpoint.

I sway like a drunkard with my eyes closed.
I'll have to try it sober.

Have you been screened for kneasles?

Just a thought.

You insensitive motherfucker! My sister 911'ed of kneasles in the Chinese earthquake.

You bastard Flint!

I drank three litres of apple cider vinegar before I worked out its your answer foe everything!

See? The apple cider vinegar helped to clear your mind and provide unique insight.


In other news, I have an appointment with an orthopedist on Wednesday. X-rays on both knees are on the agenda, so I guess we'll see what kind of chaff I have floating around in there. It has since occurred to me: if they can inject collagen into porn stars' lips, how come they can't just inject a little into my knee and make it nice and cushioned again?

Then you should be thanking me. You're cured!
Gonna get some DSKs, huh? Sweet.

are you crazy? who knows what kind of diseases you'd catch putting porn star lips in your knees?

Friend of mine had some sort of stuff injected into her knees. I forget what it was called but it was made from the combs of roosters and there is a low limit on the number of injections one may get over a lifetime. Something like 2 or 3 treatments, and then it's on to other treatments.

So my appointment with the orthopedist was vaguely disappointing, but not really surprising. He messed around with my knee a bunch and (somehow) determined that my ligaments are fine, it's completely a disintegrating cartilage issue. Which on the one hand is good, because ligament problems are a much bigger deal, but on the other hand they can actually do something about ligaments, whereas with ragged cartilage there are basically no effective treatments at all. They can do surgery to trim the ragged edge clean, but the problem will always recreate itself, sometimes within a month or less.

He said if I start having sudden severe pain, then a piece of cartilage has actually torn off, and they can do surgery to pull that out, but otherwise the only option is physical therapy, which will have limited benefits for me, if any. I'm not inclined to have to go anywhere twice a week for six weeks anyway.

He did say that once I stop being either pregnant or breastfeeding all the damn time, it should get somewhat better, because the crazy hormones make all your cartilage softer and stretchier on purpose, in order to allow your pelvis to widen. Of course in theory by that point I won't be carrying a child up and down the stairs all the time either, so that will also help. He also allowed as how it was entirely possible that I had Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, but as mentioned, it didn't really matter if I did or didn't--the symptoms were going to be whatever they were, and the treatment of them would be the same. I'm obviously not a severe case, and apparently that means I definitely don't have to worry about the rare/severe symptoms. I mentioned how it might be useful to know if my kids had the gene, and he said he could refer me to a geneticist if I really really wanted, but it would be a waste of money, since even knowing they were positive for the gene would still just mean waiting and seeing if any troublesome symptoms ever came up, which we can do anyway.

One funny thing, when he was rotating my leg all around, I kept grimacing at a certain point and he frowned and asked, "is THAT when your knee is hurting?" I said no, my knee hurts when you get to THIS point, THAT point is where my hip hurts, because you're popping it in and out of the socket when you rotate it like that. He said, "Huh... well, we'll probably be seeing you again for your hip in another ten years or so, then."

Clod, I really hesitate to get all nutritional on you, esp since I am not currently walking the walk, but I, and many people I know, have had really astounding results from Standard Process nutritional supplements. You should check out their website, I can't really explain well enough.

Bone health (includes cartilage and ligaments)http://www.standardprocess.com/displ...letalL1003.pdf

http://www.standardprocess.com/display/router.aspx

Unfortunately you have to be a doctor to order these, some pharmacies carry them, a lot of chiroquackters carry them as well. There are a bunch of online places who will sell them to you after you fill out a health survey, which may actually be good. You can read their literature and figure out what oyu may need, but some folks who do this all the time, may know what is better.

The markup form wholesale to retail is only 100%, so don't go too crazy trying to find the cheapest stuff. They aren't too bad, price wise, but after my car accident 12 years ago, they were the onl thing that made me able to sleep at night after a year of 3x week chiro treatments and various osteopaths.

The doc I finally went to was a chiro and he stopped doing adjustments after 25 years because he felt no one ever improved form them. He introduced me to these supplements.

Sorry for sounding like an infomercial, but I have had great luck with them.

Cha-Ching!!!

Which supplement were you taking? (Obviously it probably won't be appropriate for me, I'm just curious.) For back/neck pain, I assume? Conveniently, I'm about to go by the local hippie mart next week to stock up on Snapea Crisps for the kids, and I bet they'll carry some if not all of the supplements listed. I'll take a look.

Clod, I had the same problem with stairs. there were times when I had to crawl upstairs. Funny thing about it is, after my marriage broke up, the problem went away. I've decided on 3 possible reasons.
1. Stress
2. Wife and I both used Sweet and Low(artificial sweetener), which I stopped after moving out.
3. Wife was slowly poisoning me.
The above info probably won't help you, but every little bit of info could help.

spudcon, isn't 3 a repeat of 2?

Yeah, back and neck. He gave me something to promote circulation and said something to me about I could get adjsutments for the rest of my life and they'd do no good. The problem was that blood circulation to that area was inadequate to remove the build up of lactic acid and other whatevers i don't recall. Anyway, within a week I was able to sleep again and it is only rarely that I have a flare up of that problem. Conversely, the orthopedist or osteopath, IDR, wrote down something on a little pad of paper and then asked me how long I had been seeing a chiro and when that treatment stopped making me feel any better. I said one year and then six weeks. He held up the pad and it said "six weeks." He, on the other hand said I was as good as I was going to get and I should just suck it up...

So now I am taking Ligaplex for my shoulder.

My hip hurts already, I'm so fooked....

What? Flint said to soak it in cider? Ahem, clodfobble is NOT from the Island of Lesbos!

Buzzkill

Hmm that supplement and chiro thing is interesting. I was rear-ended about 2yrs ago and had chiro treatments until the settlement ended. Seemed to help but I still have a lot of problems, I was told I need to go every month, but I didn't have these problems before the wreck, and the point of goin to the chiro was to get fixed. I don't have the time or money to go every month. Also I had a friend that ran into a lot of bad luck, she was rear ended and the person drove off. Never caught. Her car insurance would only pay at the end of treatment (she couldn't afford it out of pocket though), and her dad (for no real reason) had just removed her from his health insurance. Needless to say she never got any treatment for her whiplash and she had back problems before that. It might be a good thing to recommend and try myself.