Does Anyone feel like Bailing
 

AIG and Lehman out?

Because I don't.


I. Do. Not.

Don't tell me it's all for the greater good, it will be worse if we don't,etc. Let the CEO's and CFO's bail their companies out. Mohterf******rs!!!

Am I the only one who feels this way?

and another thing: The Chinese get away with selling toxic lounge chairs?


:blah:


ok. Sunday late afternoon ennui, I suppose. But, still.

All you need to know is that rich people will stay rich and poor people will stay poor, and that's how its going to be. Period.

you mean the Dream of the Middle class is truly over?


And to kill my spirit even more---McCain is leading here in Ohio. Holy shite I cannot believe my neighbors. I really, really cannot. I shake my head in complete disbelief.

Oh great, do we have to bail Lehman out now? I thought they getting all split up.

I agree. Whenever this sort of thing happens, all the C_O's--present and especially most recent past--should have to pony up first. Seems like the guys who leave right before the shit hits the fan are the ones who are the most responsible for the mess.

What's wrong with you people in Ohio?

You mean because they are all voting McCain? I can answer this if this is your question.

The Middle Class was an aberration...was never supposed to happen. That little sociological blip is rapidly being corrected.

First, we lose the investment in our homes by having had the values artificially inflated so that we would borrow against nonexistent money, then having the values lowered so that we are, effectively being returned to being rental tenants for the next decade or so. Second, any jobs which one can actually make a decent living at are shipped overseas where impoverished people jump at the chance to make 1/10th the wages that were paid in this country. Third, the retirement investments we have all labored to build are consumed by market crashes and negative yields. Finally, inflation consumes any of the expendable income we might have as employers in a slumping economy are unwillng or unable to provide raises to even allow us to stay even with inflation.

The rich will still be rich, because the gap between the wealthy and even the middlest of the Middle class is so enormous.

Anyone taking bets on who will step up to shoot down my thesis?

I bet UG.

I was making a reference to this thread. No offense intended.

No offense taken.

I just cannot believe the nutjobs around here, supporting McCain. I USED to like him ok enough, but once he pulled that Cheap Trick, the scales fell from my eyes. He's too old and Sarah is a complete right wing saleswoman, courting the Evangelical crowd....blah,blah, you've heard it all before. I just CANNOT believe that, even NOW, people in Ohio support Bush (!!!) and want his clone in office.

I fondly look back on the days of Slick Willie. Blowjobs don't bother me, but blowing up other people---now that does bother me.

OMG! Maybe I'm becoming a socialist?! Cool! Then me and Dana can hang out more. ;)

Dash my hopes again why don't you. I thought the title of this thread was "Does anyone feel like balling?"

To quote Ms. Potter "...there was no end to the rage and disappointment..."

As for the topic, I didn't feel like bailing out Neil and Jeb, et al either, and I still feel it is a bad idea to foster and condone irresponsibility.

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/bu..._and_the_s.htm

Got this clip from Lehrer on pbs, 12 minutes of reasonable deabte on the subject.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/video/mo...17092008&seg=2

Problem is I don't BELIEVE Obama. I don't believe in him. I don't understand the vague ambiguities that come out of his mouth. I can't stand his smirky face.His finger flipping, lipstick poking politics. Congress is Democratic! and I am a democrat but I wanted Hillary as Pres. I am protesting but it won't be a protest vote, nor a color of the skin vote. It's a look at the facts about whom has done what.

Who will maybe actually do what they say?

As for bail-outs. It's better that we bail out our country than to hock it to China. What's left anyway.

We may or may not need to bail them out. I certainly don't want to do it with a) $700 billion that b) will be spent entirely at the discretion of the Secretary of the Treasury with c) absolutely no oversight whatsoever.

And bailing out offshore companies, that moved offshore to avoid paying US taxes. :eyebrow:

I don't want to gamble with the future. What if there would be another depression if we did not? How can we know the truth? We can only really know it in hindsight. I don't want to have to look back and say we should have.

I understand who is to blame and those who did it. I think deregulation is wrong. I always thought so. I can even say, "I told you so" to those who bashed me for bashing Bush' Waay back when but anyway, I didn't like Bush then and I still don't. I still am democratic in my basic philosophy but these parties are so in the pockets of special interests on both sides.

I am all for cleaning up our government. I hope the two nominees can clean it up without running us into the ground any further.

that's all

The "government" is three branches. Congress needs "cleaning up" the most. The Executive branch can supply leadership, and block some mismanagement, but congress is where the most damage is done.

That's one of the reasons the candidates don't get into specifics. It's that not only would the campaigns get bogged down in the details, that most people don't understand anyway, but the congress is the only one that can deal with this. The executive branch can only try to herd the cats.

Then you must also hate McCain for same reasons.

Your emotions should never be reason for such decisions. Making a decision on how you 'feel' makes one the perfect patsy for Rush Limbaugh logic. How to get the naive to vote for you? Get them to think using emotion - decisions only based in first impressions. And yes, that is racism. Racism is not about race. Racism is also judging people only on first impressions.

McCain campaign has absorbed the George Jr wackos who, for example, got the VP selection changed to someone who represents wacko extremist agendas. Do you want someone who promotes the party agenda only because you feel?

George Sr had the same problem. He very much disliked the wacko extremists who eventually took major positions in his administration. He, like McCain, had no choice. Party power is located mostly among wackos which is why moderates (such as Sen Collins of Maine) survive with so little party support.

Do you want George Jr people in power? You get them when voting for McCain. Same people who cause George Sr so much aggravation. Same people who George Sr would not have had if given the choice.

I think it's interesting that 5-10 years ago, it was the banks and credit card companies that lobbied for changes to the bankruptcy laws so that individuals would find it much harder to file for bankruptcy and gain protection from their creditors. These lenders were engaging in predatory lending and wanted to be able to keep the thumbscrews on their debtors to collect every last cent.

Now it's the banks who need the protecting, and they are coming to the tax payers to ask for the handout.

They didn't want us to have protection, and now they are begging for protection.

Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. I say we string each and every one of them up in a public square, then shoot killer bees at them.


The French had a way with dealing with people like these assholes. It's called the Guillotine and they only had to use it ONCE to show the people meant business.

And these CEO's, CFO's? Why, they get to Yacht away into the sunset with a gaggle of giggling girl-mistresses and all OUR cash. VENDETTA!!! I just can't keep living like this! I want a revolution.

Heh... what's a middle class?

I don't know, Bri. I look around and I just have to shake my head in disbelief. I mean, WTF? The only thing I can come up with is that there was a secret little place where you used a secret password to get in. Once in, you signed a secret little paper that said if you kept everything on the down low, you would get some kind of kickback from all the hell the middle class has had to bear, some monetary kickback from the fat oilcats and fat bankcats. The other side of that was that, if you ran your mouth, you were killed, or sent to Iraq. Either or.


Because otherwise...WTF?

I dislike both of them for pretty much the same reasons. First of all they are politicians and secondly, since getting the "nod" the extremists in both parties are now involved in their respective campaigns exponentially more than at the beginning. The leftist extremists are just as bad as the righty tighties.

What is your opinion of the top leftist whackos? I hate to assume this, but it seems as though you only shoot at the right and not both.

Da right has done me wrong.

Wackos from either side get the contempt they earn. However the lefty wackos were not sending corporate welfare to their chosen companies and religious groups, were not subverting any effort to avert 11 September, were not assigning White House lawyers to rewrite science to properly reflect their political agenda, were not hyping a pathetic man to Mars program only for the glory of their administration, did not try to kill the Hubble Space Telescope, did not stifle fundamental medical science (ie stem cells) only to impose their religion on mankind, did not lower the income of Americans while massively enriching the few richest, were not inventing myths (ie Saddam's involvement on 11 Sept) only to promote more war, did not lie about the massive debts and the resulting recession that must result, did not keep spending massively on 'rebate' programs to only make themselves look good, did not subvert education with "more children left behind" nonsense, did not endorse interference with Terry Schiavo, did not keep American drug prices 40% higher and impose a cost on Medicaid that will only massively increase more entitlements (measured in $trillions over ten years), did not routinely wiretap everyone in some mythical fear that we all conspire to perform terrorism, did not subvert mileage standards so that engineers in the auto industry are further stifled by the bean counters, did not openly conduct torture and international kidnapping - and deny it, did not impose illegal tariffs to protect anti-American big steel while destroying jobs in the productive steel reprocessing industry, did not go to California for a campaign fund raiser when everyone knew a category five hurricane would strike New Orleans, subverted the HAVA standards for electronic voting machines, denied damage to New Orleans for over five days while people had no food or water in the SuperDome and Convention Center (and while the USS Bataan sat only miles away forbidden to offer assistance), did not subvert writ of Habeas Corpus, did not unilaterally subvert numerous international treaties as to all but restart the cold war, did not subvert anti-aids programs in Africa so at to impose wacko extremists Christian beliefs, did not stifle American aid to tsunami victims even with the USS Abraham Lincoln sitting nearby in Hong Kong and unable to provide assistance for five days, did not try to create a shooting war with China over a silly spy plane, did not alienate every American ally including Mexico, Canada and even the 90% approval rating in Turkey smashed to single digits, did not subvert the Carter plan to bring N Korea back into the world on some myth called 'axis of evil', did not earn contempt from virtually the entire JAG, did not increase pork barrel legislation by a factor of ten, did not virtually destroy readiness of American arm forces including the elimination of the once always considered essential Division Ready Brigade, ...

Just a few of the reasons off the top as to why right wing wacko extremists are so dumb and so anti-American.

My complaint with wacko extremist left? They remained mute while all this was ongoing.

Why should Bush and Cheney get to have all the fun tapping the public femoral cash artery? The American public has plenty of blood left for all of the vampires.

I've been saying this throughout the entire second term...the sole reason for this administration has been to drain as much money out of the public pockets as possible, probably to sink into hard commodities to ride out the coming global financial upheaval in style.

Back to work, if you can find it, serfs.

Exactly.

There is 10% of us who will vote based on who makes their hand shake less when attempting to check their box on Nov.4th.

Well tw, given a blank canvas to work with you found virtually no fault with any of the democratic leadership. None whatsoever, in fact. If that is all you have to say, it says a great deal about how firmly entrenched in the left you are. I asked a specific question and you seem to have done nothing but turned it around again onto the right.

Its very telling that you said not one thing about congress.

Perhaps you missed this tw, I think it warrants repeating.

As AIG was crashing, McCain read directly from the script written by his new staff. "Our economy is sound" - a direct quote from what his new staff had written for George Jr. Well McCain realized his mistake later in that day and stopped reading that speech. But the speech was written by those who now run his campaign - the same people who designed political strategy for George Jr.

"Our economy was not sound" according to those who were trying to avoid an economic meltdown. But McCain was quoting the exact same phrase - word for word - that George Jr said. Does that sound like change - or that McCain's staff is now subverted with George Jr wacko extremists?

I simply don't understand positions like yours. In the political spectrum, Hillary is much closer to Obama than to McCain. Did you support Hillary because of her politics, or for some other reason?

The republicans are the party that has pushed deregulation, and much of what they have deregulated has turned to piles of stinking poo because greedy robber barons end up thriving and screwing us. The Savings and Loans in the 80s, the the rolling blackouts in California and the fall of Enron, and now the banks.

What about the Savings and Loans debacle in the 80's? McCain was one of the Keating Five who took campaign contributions in exchange for obstructing the investigation into one of the failed Savings and Loans. Do you really want a member of the Keating Five to try to lead us out of this mess?

Obama on the other hand, has no such skeletons in his closet. And he is tapping a lot of the top economic advisers who worked under Bill Clinton. I miss the Clinton years. The economy was very strong then, we had peace, and the government even had a surplus.

Looking at both campaigns this past week, it seems that Obama is better. Neither candidate has much more information that what they read in the paper, so they can't really say what they can do to lead us out of this mess. Obama has basically said that he's in no position to second guess the Fed and Treasury and has kept his mouth shut, and McCain is running around saying he'll fire people, no wait, he'll just see about getting rid of them, he'll appoint a 9/11 commission. He opposes, no wait, he now supports the bailout of AIG and then finally settles down and takes the same position as Obama to just let the Fed and Treasury do their jobs.


As far as the topic of this thread goes, I think we have no choice but to bail out these banks, but I don't like it. I'd like to see some sort of strings attached, like increased regulation. And maybe putting the CEOs in pillories on Wall Street for a day or two so we can all go by and kick them in the ass.

That means each would be paid about $100,000 per ass kick. That is a solution?

Chance are a member of his entourage will take his place anyway.

While I agree with you on an emotional level, the pedant in me feels obliged to point out that the French didn't just use the guillotine once. They used it again and again and again, and for more and more spurious reasons. By no means everyone who ended up sans une tête was rich, aristocratic or otherwise guilty. Once mob takes the reins everyone is in danger.

Agreed glatt, McCain has been feckless all last week.

Deregulation is excellent when done correctly, even other bank deregulation. The problem is that doing it correctly is difficult, especially when every little special interest is trying to get paid or to preserve their phoney baloney jobs.

Sure, I understand the theory that a free market is best. And I agree with it in theory. It just seems like in practice, the end result is always that a couple of huge and powerful entities end up screwing everyone else. I don't like being screwed. I think a middle ground is needed.

I supported her for the issues and I believed she could actually deliver and get something done.

Other than that I don't know. It's a conundrum and I am probably not the best person to dispel a mystery. I can tell you I have done some soul searching for deep seated feminist issues to see if I have a crooked need for a tangerine pantsuit :P


I did like Obama's interview with reporters today. I have been waiting for the debates.I wish we could have had an oportunity to see townhall debates so the remaining fence sitters would know for sure who to vote for. Things could change for me during the debates. We shall see.

I want to see them both off the cuff because these political soundbites, gaffs and talking heads don't tell me anything.

I like the prudence I saw today during the bailout hearings on both political parties.
That's all I know.


TW- Im not ignoring you. It's just that your responses to me are way over what I want to get into. Thanks tho.

[on rant] Bush lost all the debates to Kerry - They only take the main point from the typically BS question and go off on their own pre-prepared tangent stock answer anyway.

My type of "debate" would start with about 50 YES or NO only questions followed by, based upon their answers - HOW?, specifically!
It seems that we are way too accepting of this farce of an election process. It's simply all a bunch of crap. They all lie and typically the better liar wins. Non of these people truly give a shit about you, me or anyone else other than those who can get them elected. The are only interested in getting more power, position and money.

Another thought - maybe these guys could donate some of their campaign money towards the bailout. That would mean a hell of a lot more to me and show some real character and leadership than anything else they've been doing so far. [off rant]

I've read a lot of rants on this board. Rarely to I find one that so adequately sums up the feelings I have. Thanks for posting that, Classic.

Supposedly the FBI is now investigating for fraud. I would like to see just once people get their just desserts for what happened. That would be a really long list.

...and an interesting one too, I'm sure.

An email I got
 

:lol2:

That's a funny e-mail, and it's probably a mistake to look at it seriously, but if you do, the major flaw is that the proposed banking bailout isn't so much a gift of free money as it is buying up a bunch of risky loans that actually have a fair chance of being paid off. Much of the $800 Billion (or whatever the figure is) stands a chance of coming back down the road. There's even a small chance that the government would eventually make money on the deal.

..and an even smaller chance that the American public would know about it.

Money coming in? Oh goody, lets think of something to spend it on... like we did with the surplus. ;)


But if there's a good chance of it being paid off, why the hell do we have to buy it?

Apparently it's not good enough to be inviting to anyone else in the market.

All I know is the impact this is having on my 401k, and if I look at the hit that it has taken and calculate my share of what this bailout will cost, the bailout is cheaper. Assuming it works.

So I'm in grudgingly in favor of the bailout. The alternative is a possible repeat of the 1930s.

But there's a problem with the math.

$85 billion / 200 million = $425/person, not $425,000.

Picky, picky, picky... ya notice that, huh? :lol2:

Possible repeat?
Why should I have to pony up, to save your 401k, that I had no decision in planning and get no benefit from? Redistribution of wealth?

I can see it from your point of view. Your job is safe if we go into a depression because the government is probably your number one customer. The rest of the country faces some serious uncertainty.

My comments about my 401k were just from a purely selfish perspective looking at easily tangible figures. Potential loss of jobs is harder to calculate because nobody has a crystal ball.

Are you playing devil's advocate here, or do you really not understand that allowing our banks to crash will be bad for the economy?

Yes, I am.
These are questions people are throwing at me, everyday. They know I'm a smartass, and in times like this, the forget the ass part.

Hey, my job is secure... the gumint will need helicopters to help put down the insurrections of the great unwashed.
Besides, in another year or so, I'll be retired, and a good depression would keep prices down. :D

Hopefully I won't be one of them. I can always bathe in the Potomac to keep clean. In the summer anyway.

The Great Miami River, though not that great, is pretty clear and clean where I live. Just a hop, step, and a jump! :)

Hey, I've heard of the University of Miami in Ohio, is that on the banks of the river?

To be honest, I don't know if it's on the banks. Miami River does run down through Dayton and Cincinnati (and Miami U is in Cincy) but there are a lot of miami named things around here presumbly due to the Miami Indians who were very "big" in the Ohio area. The Miami have close relation to the Shawnee.

btw, Miami University in Ohio is a wonderful school.

My son says the girls there are "extremely Hawt"

Hawt/high maintenance stuck up hoes who demand to be treated like princesses 24/7. You are merely the red carpet upon which they walk, nothing more.



So says my brother who went there anyway.

Hmmm, it does have a high population of well-to-do people, from all I've heard...so that's where the princess thing comes in I guess. It does have a good rep academically though, for sure. My friend who I worked with every summer at the farm market went there as I was going to my school, and she was pretty down to earth, and talked about the air of snobbery she ran into from time to time. But she loved it!

Given this, why hasn't anyone created a thread, "Does anyone feel like Balling?"

The Game Changer

By Bill O'Reilly for BillOReilly.com
Thursday, September 25, 2008

The financial meltdown will change many things in America, and we can start with campaign promises. You can say goodbye to universal health care, a cornerstone of Barack Obama's campaign strategy. Massive medical benefits are now impossible because the bailout will take all the money.

Also, sayonara to John McCain's across-the-board tax cuts. The Democrats will likely control Congress again and, in the face of a $750 billion expenditure, there is little chance taxes will decline in any significant way.

So, both candidates find themselves losing a major core issue because of the greedy, stupid mortgage scandal.

Polls show that the folks are angry, as they should be. A Fox News survey puts President Bush's approval rating at 26%. Shortly after 9/11, the President had an approval rating of 88%, so you can clearly see how the once-mighty have fallen.

Just two weeks ago, the Palin bounce had John McCain leading Barack Obama in just about every national poll. Now McCain has fallen behind Senator Obama, and it's directly because of the economic madness.

Some Americans object to the feds bailing out companies that trafficked in risky mortgages. But if the government does not allocate taxpayer money to stop the economic bleeding, then what? Do you let the United States slide into a depression? The American economy is greatly dependent on foreign investment—oil sheiks and Chinese entrepreneurs buying our stocks and bonds. If overseas investors believe the U.S. economy is fundamentally unstable, they will pull their money out. That would be catastrophic for America.

Basically, the feds are playing a confidence game right now. They are assuring the world that our economy will not collapse. That assurance is vital.

But, once again, it is the folks who have to pay the bills, and pay we will. For the next four years, our tax dollars will be basically used for two things—fighting terrorists abroad and bailing out greedheads on Wall Street.

The FBI is investigating some corporate managers who made big money while their companies burned. People like former Merrill Lynch CEO Stanley O'Neal who allowed his company to buy bad mortgage paper and then, when things went south, walked away with a reported $150 million severance package. Meanwhile, millions of Merrill stockholders got hammered.

In any federal bailout, two things have to happen. First, the companies involved must pay back any "loans" after they get back on their feet. Secondly, the government must control the pay of the managers. That is non-negotiable. No more tax dollars for greedhead incompetents like O'Neal.

In the end, the American working person will pull the country out of this mess, just like we always do. But no longer can we the people trust the government to look out for us. The covenant between the folks and Washington has been badly damaged, there's no question about it.
And that may take a longer time to repair than the stupid mortgage mess.

From Wikipedia:

Oh yeah...I see the trick now.