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Great, now they're making targets out of honest surveyors. :( I prefer it when the aggression is justified. " It was awful nice of you to build a garage for your neighbor..."

This tastes bad. I'm not sure why but it just seems sneaky and of dubious legality. I think it's because it's a guy that is dressed like a civilian who is helping hand out speeding tickets. I wish I could hand out tickets to jackass cops who speed, run red lights, and slap my friends around. grrrrrrr.

I can't say I'm really disappointed in this. I was, at first. Until I realized that <b>speeding is illegal</b>. And thousands of people die in car accidents each year that could have been avoided if someone wasn't speeding.

The law's the law. If you break it, you might be punished. Don't be pissed off because you got caught when it wasn't made abundantly clear that a cop was around. Don't want the ticket, don't break the law.

Agreed.

As I see it, these are merely undercover cops in a different role than we generally assume. And it's out in public, so no one's privacy is being violated.

Besides...big brother is always watching you anyway. :)

Next time I go out surveying, I'm gonna wear a state trooper costume. It will make my job easier since nobody will question my right to be there or give me any crap.

But then you could get busted for impersonating an officer. ;)

Two things: not my personal opinion, merely cultural observations. In the US, some people seem to hold the belief that speeding is a God-given right, or some sort of privilege that smart people simply get away with. Populist state laws, intended to appeal to drivers, and thus favour incumbent politicians, seek to restrict the amount of speed checking done by the police, and to impose limitations on how it can be done. Often, signs have to point out where radar checking is done, or where speed is monitored by aircraft. Automatized radar traps seem to be rare. In conversation with drivers, many seem upset and annoyed that the police would employ 'sneaky' (see the above wording) methods to catch speeding drivers. And, as dhamsaic said, I am always speechless, since it's a method of checking illegality without causing any harm to anyone in the process. Whilst spying on everyone's phone conversations to find out if you are a criminal has serious repercussions, checking everybody's speed does not. Questioning the legality of such checks is particularly strange, since it implies that there is some sort of social contract going on between law enforcement and the people: apparently you can only catch illegal actions if you make sure beforehand that the people committing those actions know that you're there.

Nonetheless, those methods are nothing compared to what is done in Europe. Automatic radar traps are the norm, your speed is measured, a photograph immediately/automatically taken, then processed, and your fine sent to your home address via mail. Simple and effective. Radar traps are not usually announced in advance ("slow down here, then continue speeding"), and often they are ingeniously hidden. The best I've ever seen looked like a trash can standing by the roadside next to a highway exit in Germany, where people were likely to speed up to enter traffic. For obvious reasons, there is a speed limit on such an onramp, to avoid crashing into highway traffic that may not see you in time. The trashcan was big and grey, and looked a bit out of whack. On very close inspection, it had a grille of some sort on its side. It had a radar trap built into it, and was chained to the ground.

X.

First off, I'm not a speeder. I drive small Nissan pickup that just isn't built for speed. I take great pleasure in seeing dangerous drivers busted. However, I like my police up front and in uniform. Playing surveyor is probably a great revenue enhancer, but I doubt it slows anyone down. Put a trooper in a marked car somewhere near the work area and people will slow down. I regard this seemingly victimless affair as part of an overall change in policing from an open know your local cop methodology, built on trust, to a far more sinister, you never know when you are being watched methodology, built on deceit. It blurs the line between the good guys and the bad. Is it a big step from here to undercover cops in sports cars challenging drivers to race them, when cops already sell drugs and prostitutes?


Nonetheless, those methods are nothing compared to what is done in Europe. Automatic radar traps are the norm, your speed is measured, a photograph immediately/automatically taken, then processed, and your fine sent to your home address via mail. Simple and effective. I'm not real comfortable with the next logical step, tracking citizens movements, which in post 9/11 America is not too far fetched.

just one paranoids opinion Griff

It's true, I deal with this every day. I'm one of those "weird" people who actually try to go the speed limit. I don't go slow; I stay within 1-3 mph over or under the speed limit. In my country, I am a freak and a reject because of this.

People are constantly tailgating me or passing me going 10 miles an hour over the speed limit. I'm very vengeful, too. If someone tailgates me I slow down to like 20-30 mph below the speed limit. It really pisses them off, but I think they deserve it for not passing me.

I'm sure if I lived in a big city, i'd be forced to speed on a daily basis just to keep up with the flow of the traffic. My city is fairly small, though.

Where's russotto dammit?

Part of the problem is that Europe is on average about 10 times as densely populated as the US.

When the US instituted a national speed limit, it was about as ridiculous a concept as could be imagined, for certain states. Like Nevada, where you could drive for 4 hours in a straight line and not see anyone else. The defacto limit was probably twice the actual lmit on some of those roads.

The people rejected the national speed limit via civil disobedience. In places like Nevada, only about 5% of the cars drove 55. In places like northern Jersey, where the population is as dense as, say, Belgium, the compliance level was closer to 20%.

The people spoke loudly with their form of civil disobedience, and when they speak that loudly, they are sending a strong message. In this case it was more than preference: it was productivity. Cut 10% off the time to truck stuff across a state, and it makes things cheaper, opens up possibilities. Get people to work a little faster, and you can expand your possible employee base a few miles.

The highly individualistic nature of Americans allows them to send messages to the lawmakers through their casual law-breaking.

Lastly, with my W-rated tires and $1000 suspension, I'm going to tool up the road at whatever rate I please, and I'm not going to hurt myself or others. (I only tear out if the road is basically deserted, so get off yer high horse.)

Did anyone else flash on the Village People?

I'm all for slowing down all around.

But what if you weren't speeding? I have been pulled over by the law for no reason other than the car we were driving was profiled- an out of state, obvious rental. We were not speeding, but the cop said we were. It wasn't a road block but a team of two Kansas trooper cars on a sweep. We got the full interior and trunk search. Drug dogs on the front lines of the war. We were too baffled and freaked to be coherent resistent libertarians. "Mind if we look in the back?" "uh, no officer".(with a gun and the ability to totally mess up my life if pissed off) Nothing to find, no ticket, no violation, (whew! even though the initial stop was for speeding) and we were sent on our way after a hour. But the car was a rental, who knew what the hell was in the trunk. And if the gun says we were speeding we were speeding.

In a similar incident some friends driving a van (of course) were stopped in New Mexico for a drug sniff and the cop kept saying "The dog is indicating something"...But after a very long, complete search, there were no drugs found. It was finally decided that it was the rather odiferous patchouli oil favored by one of the young male passengers-forever to be razzed about his illegal pimp oil.

Eh, I'm all about speeding in the middle of nowhere with no one around. No problem with that.

But understand that you are taking a risk. You are knowingly breaking a law. So yeah, it sucks if you get caught - but that's <b>your</b> fault.

I got hung up on in a supposed DWI check point when we were in Seneca Falls. Who knows what they were really up to? I may be from the country but I don't think you need 20 odd State Troopers and Local Police to check for drunks nor would the troopers be talking to passengers rather than drivers. We were on the front end of the traffic mess they made so it cost us maybe fifteen minutes, but the line we passed going the other way was a good mile long. So using the DWI check point as an opportunity they got to do an eyeball search of a couple hundred vehicles/passengers. Thats why we can't set aside our rights for ideas even as good as keeping the roads drunk free. If we smelled of patchouli or clove you can bet we'd have been doing the white line dance at least until a K-9 unit happened by.

I have no problem with that as long as you recognize jujus (and everyone elses) right to life. Speed limits are generally too low, especially in the West and most interstates. Difference in speed is where the danger lies, so the state makes roads more dangerous when posted limits cause law abiding drivers to drive far below the average. Dangerous drivers are the ones who piss me off and they cannot be easily identified with traffic cameras and what not. You know the types tailgaters, folks that weave through traffic, kids playing traffic tag... As annoying as tw could be he referred to driving as a team sport, there is some kernal of truth to that.

That is a dangerous game, too. Inducing road rage and contributing to another driver's irrational or impulsive passing behavior that results in an accident in the oncoming lane could cost some innocent driver his life.

If driving below the speed limit deliberately to frustrate another driver gives one a feeling of control, be prepared for responsibility and guilt in case of an accident involving an innocent third party, which might not have happened, otherwise.

That's not necessarily true. First of all, if a cop gives you a ticket, ask to see the radar gun, with your supposed speed locked in. That's your right. If they refuse (often because they didn't actually clock you), you can plead in court that the radar gun evidence is inadmissable.

If they did lock your speed in, before your court date send a certified letter to the police department asking to see the gun's calibration record (they must calibrate it each day or at the beginning of the shift, depending on local regs) and that officer's record of training on how to use it. If they don't reply, bring a copy of the certified letter to court. Case dismissed.

In Louisville, the court date you're assigned is in the evening, and if you wish to plead innocent there, they assign you a "real" court date during the day sometime later. I'm not sure if that's how it is everywhere. Anyhoo, I've never had a ticket that they didn't just dismiss that first night. Since most people don't show up to court, it's not worth it to them to go after the ones that do unless they have a really good case. Again, YMMV.

I once got a ticket in late November, and my night court date was December 23. I show up for court, and the judge is wearing a Santa hat. As court is called to session, he says "Look people, I want to get outta here as much as you do. You can ask for a day court date if you want, but I guarantee you won't get a better deal than you will from the guy wearing the red hat."

As my case is called, I approach the bench. "Mr. Johnson, you've been charged with speeding. You gonna slow down?" "Yes, your honor." "Case dismissed."

I agree that if you get busted, it's your own fault, and you did break the law. But I also think speed limits are ridiculously low in most places, and if they're gonna try to bust me on it, they better dot their i's and cross their t's.

So in your situation where you were a long way from home, you're pretty much stuck. Piss off the cop, and he might write you a baseless ticket, but you can't go to court to contest it. But if you're near home, don't be too afraid to piss 'em off if you know you're not doing anything wrong.

There's not a lot of road rage in Arkansas, and I don't do it in a way that could cause accidents. Anyway, unless I need to be somewhere very soon (e.g., i'm going to work), I don't really feel the need to go faster than the speed limit.

Thought Toad Might Like This
 

lifted from no-treason.com


Rob Robertson
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Requiem For A Mighty MoPar


Traffic was wide-open travelling south on I-95 out of New Hampshire, and the deep breathing, long-legged Sport Satellite settled nicely into into its favorite 100 mile per hour cruising groove. 7.2 liters of displacement coupled with 3.23 highway gears gave it all the low end torque it needed for handling the in-town chores, but where the pavement turned long and straight the top-end was limited only by a somewhat indifferent front suspension,... and nerve. Being young and not overly-bright meant not having the sense to listen to that spark of reason in my head because there was competition to be found out here, and I would have it.

I'd meant no harm when the pretty little IROC Z retreated in my rearview mirror, and frankly I wasn't interested in wasting gas on an anemic ghost of a past champion. The showroom Chevy raced up beside me, young boys crowding its windows, challenging the old MoPar and its driver as they mouthed, "Let's go!" Bored but curious, I let the Camaro pull ahead by half a car length, making sure to keep the nose of the Plymouth right in the corner of the driver's eye. Easing up to 120, the Chevy had run out of air, or gears, or perhaps guts, and I casually gave them a wave as I eased past right before mashing my foot to the floor, leaving them once again (and finally).

Mustangs also fell by the wayside in the same manner, and I'd always resented the emasculated Corvette owners who gave some pretense to racing yet fell back whenever we approached triple digits. Their machine was 'an investment', or 'a statement', or anything but the instrument for which it was designed; to propel a human being at speeds beyond the sanely acceptable. "The car has more balls than you do," I thought to myself, eyeing the middle-aged, executive type behind the wheel of what *should* have been some real competition. 'Cool it down and pack it up' was the plan to which I'd resigned myself as I looped around to pick up 128 North to Cape Ann.

North of Beverly is where the complexion of Route 128 really changes. The malls and industrial parks are left far behind, as well as the clots of commuters and extra lanes. Dense and green, the trees grew right up to the edge of the highway as well as filling the wide median, blocking the view between the north and southbound lanes. Even at 85 the scene was peaceful, and in my reverie I never noticed the bright red Porche 911 bearing down on me. Alone on that two lane stretch of highway, the Porche smoothly negotiated around me and back into the fast lane, checking his rearview to see if I was willing to give chase.

A slight dip of the nose told him all he need to know, and in a heartbeat our speedometers registered the news; each of us had found the challenge we were looking for.

My stock instrument gauge was useless as the needle swung through 120, pinning itself at the (undesignated) speed of 130, leaving only the tachometer and some ungodly sound from under the hood to tell the tale. NASCAR racing was coming to life, and the high-pitched sound of an engine running past six thousand RPM filled me with visions of pistons punching through the hood. Still the Porche maintained the lead, and drafting was no longer just a buzzword from the broadcasting booth. The 911's whale tail opened a pocket for me to slip into, and moving out to pass left me desperately trying to convince the front-end of the Mighty MoPar that my notion of direction was worthy of merit.

The road pulled up into a slight rise with a sweeping right hand turn at its crest, and at 7400 RPM my motor seemed eager for even more fuel. This was my spot, my only chance to break away from the German fury and prove the mettle of American iron. Standing between me and victory was a sedate little commuter car in the right hand travel lane, blithely rolling along at the posted 55 miles per hour. Fortunately for me (and unfortunately for him), the breakdown lane was just wide enough for the Plymouth's bulging rear fenders plus a jelly donut, and with the most careful input to the steering wheel I could muster, I let the beast drift across the lane, sheering off distance as I took a radically inside line, aiming for an apex between gravel and the station wagon's side molding.

I wondered what the unsuspecting commuter felt as the two speed demons passed him on either side at nearly the exact moment, but by the time I'd pulled back into the passing lane in front of the 911 he was nowhere to be seen in the vibrating mirror. A bit of panic seeped into my brain as I realized that we were fast approaching traffic ahead at what must have been 165 mph, but both the Porche pilot and I throttled back and let it go with a friendly wave. Adrenaline rushed through me, my legs rubbery and jangling as I scrubbed off speed to take my exit, leaving me spent but elated as I mused, "there's no replacement for cubic displacement!"

Well I've only been the commuter in that tale.

About ten years back I was on 295 going a stead 60, and one of those 911s passed me at about 140 MPH. It was an amazing sight to see. Well, amazing for the 1.5 seconds that I could see it.

It must've been about 1am, and conditions were clear and safe, so more power to him. But I almost had to stick my foot out the door to see if I was still moving.

Part of the problem is that the US driving test in most states is almost ludicrously easy to pass and requires very little in the way of skill, experience, and patience.

I'd like to point to the uncle of a friend of mine who lived in Britain for 40 years, failed his driving test about seven or eight times, finally moved to the US when he was in his fifties, and instantly passed the NY state driving test.

There is often a minimum amount of hours you need to have taken with a certified driving instructor, with the rule-of-thumb being that you should have taken as many hours as you are years' old. Highway time is required, as well as at least one night-time lesson, and extensive theoretical schooling.

This would pose less of a problem in the US if the driving age wasn't 16, but 18, like it is in most of Europe. I do agree that driving conditions are much more difficult there, as you can't just cruise along for hours at 60mph; similarly, road conditions and skill necessary are an altogether different matter, as well.

Badly-schooled, inexperienced drivers and the low driving age all contribute to car accidents being the number one cause of death in the US for people between the ages of 6 and 27. I'm not saying that all of those could be prevented by sticking to the road rules, but I wonder if the 'stick it to the man' attitude has something to do with it. Another empty statistic: Car Accidents are the leading cause of death among teenagers in the United States, accounting for 36% of all deaths of persons aged 15 to 19 years. The fatal crash rate per million miles for 16-year-old drivers is more than 7 times the rate for drivers aged 30 to 59 years.

X.

I've never seen them here, but back in St. Louis they have "traffic lawyers." You pay them to go to court for you and plea your case down to a parking violation in exchange for a slightly higher fine. You pay the higher fine and your driving record stays clean. I know that the City of Washington, DC allows people caught on the radar cameras to do the same thing, but I've never heard of it being done here in the Philadelphia area.

Griff, Mopar fucking sucks, and that's all I have to say about that. ;) Though I did almost buy a Barracuda once.

I got a speeding ticket when I lived in Austin- (guilty, late for a job, mid-day, little traffic, going 45 in a 30 zone, cop caught going down a hill) And to wipe it off my record I was allowed to take a comedy safe driving course. It was really strange. I guess its a gig for the struggling stand up or actor and so I was re-educated. Not sure if they do that anymore.

I'm right with ya on that one X. We're way too lax on testing drivers. It's true that speed demons and people who weave through lanes are a problem, but a big part of that problem is, for example, people who stay in the left lane or who don't use turn signals.

I am guilty of road rage myself sometimes, I'll admit, and prolly 75% of the time is when some idiot won't get over. Or even worse, when two people are going the same speed. Then you get about a dozen cars stacked behind them who, when the opening occurs, will zip between them to get around.

And then there's older drivers. I've got nothing against senior citizen drivers who are still competent, even if they do drive too slow. But there's no excuse for allowing those few who just aren't in control of their vehicle or are aware of their surroundings to keep driving. We need to have more continual testing every few years, and it should get more frequent as you get older. It'll never happen though.

At the time you posted, probably doing about 80mph up US 422.

I drive a '99 Mazda Miata. My '91 Mazda Miata (which wasn't as capable) could do top speed (somewhere around 120mph) on the St. Gabe's Curve, no problem -- I did the curve flat out at 1am one morning, but got nailed while coasting for my exit. 18 wheelers (CF trucks excluded) do the curve at 55-65mph. A max speed of 55 for the whole thing is just silly.

A local road -- something of a minor arterial, really -- has a speed limit of 25mph. They set up one of those radar signs on it recently, at the bottom of a long, straight hill. I had a set of inline skates with me, so I strapped them on and let fly. 33mph -- yet a car should do 25? And they weren't my racing skates, either. Most of the cars coming over the top of the hill were doing 40ish, though they slowed down when they saw the sign.

I've driven from Florida to here in 13 hours. If I'd stuck to the speed limits, I couldn't have done it in one stretch.

I've been involved in a few accidents. Oddly, though I speed whenever I can, all have occurred at or below the speed limit.

The state passes all sorts of ridiculous laws. They'd be intolerable if I thought I actually had to follow them. And at least in terms of frequency of irritation, speed limits are #1 on that list. Nothing cures "road rage" like a good chance to put the pedal to the metal, be it on interstates or on the twisties.

I thought about this discussion again, when I read about the cause of that accident involving the FedEx truck.

It wasn't me!

I used to drive that section of 270 regularly...I don't recall that sign being particularly low, so...how the hell did he get the trailer caught?

Driving slower and increasing the distance to cars in front is exactly what good drivers do in response to tailgaters. Tailgaters often don't understand that only reason for all that slower traffic is themselves. Since tailgaters will never understand until other pro-humanity people point out to a tailgater his lack of knowledge. Slowing due to a tailgater increases safety of other vehicles. Never criticize anyone who does exactly what one must do in response to tailgating.

One should never talk kindly about those who physically attack or intimidate other people. A bully in school is no different from a tailgater - who causes all traffic to slow down because others must respond - to compensate for the serious degradation of safety.

I had a similar experience once.

I was getting on the PA Turnpike eastbound at Valley Forge (old exit 24). Those who know me know I'm *far* from the world's slowest driver, and this is when I was still driving a Pontiac Grand Prix with the big engine, before I bought my current Saturn SC-2. Plenty of power.

The Exit 24 entrance to eastbound was a route I drove every workday for at least 20 years, it was a spring evening and the sun was still up, so with light traffic and good visibility, I wasn't holding back. Tthe entry ramp there is two lanes wide; I accelerated to a good merge speed--probably got to about 60-65mph--and was checking the outside rearview for traffic to merge into before going faster when a yellow Corvette blew by me in the right-hand entrance lane as if I was standing still. He was doing *at least* 85 when he passed, and was still accelerating at that point.

Figured I wouldn't see *him* again, but I was wrong.

About 8 miles down the road, a set of skid marks left the highway and connected with furrows plowed into the grass off to the side (this part of the Turnpike didn't have close-in guardrails).

Just visible over the crest of the berm was the rear end of a yellow Corvette...

Man... what are the chances of <b>two</b> yellow Corvettes driving recklessly on the same road at the same time? That's unreal that you'd come across two of 'em like that.

US conditions vary all over the place. We have lots of autobahn-like highway, but also have plenty of congested urban areas too.
Yes, those are indeed empty statistics, at least until you control for how much travel in the US is by auto vs. other modes. There's no question tht the US is overall an automotive culture.

Furthermore, nearly half of the 6-27 cohort is below driving age; there are actually very few reckless drivers who want to stick it to the man here who are under 12. :-) I would imagine that auto accidents tend to happen at higher speeds in the US, which is probably a factor in the fatality rates for young children.

Conditions are *so* different between the US and EU that a meaningful comparison is very, very difficult.