Body Language
 

So, I found myself in a rather heated argument last night with my partner (sexual, romantic, personal, not professional that is) regarding body language. Specifically his. More specifically him turning away from me entirely, in public, when we are talking (I am referring to more than brief view finding, but rather completely facing away for more than a few minutes at a time).

He seemed rather shocked that this bothered me or that I took it personally (in his head the reason we are out in public, so, ya know, natural to look around).

In my head, I thought, hell, when I see two people at a table with eachother and one is not only avoiding eye contact, but actually turned away, I think they are angry or aren't that fond of eachother. I might even think that he/she is trying to let everyone know they are not together.

I pose this situation, this overshare if you will, to obtain feedback on two levels:

1. How much attention or lack thereof is "normal" ? and at what point does lack thereof become rude or unkind. There is a fine line between personal preference and responding to cues any normal person might take poorly. Addressing the former is personal preference, the latter might be considered more of a public service.

2. Is there a way to really effectively approach issues of innate body communication? I mean, it strikes me people manifest rude non verbal cues that are not intended as such out of habit...thus you are tackling, directly, subconscious issues... a difficult task. circuitous at best.

Personal questions that can only be addressed by the individual. Whatever your "tolerance" is for such behavior coupled with his exhibited behavior are not on par. Whether he needs to alter his or you need to be less sensitive... dunno. My initial guess is that if it bothers you then you both need to move toward each other and meet somewhere in the middle - compromise.

I agree 100% with classicman on this.

The opinions of a bunch of people outside your relationship have virtually nothing to do with it. It's between the two of you. Either you can reach an agreement, or you can't. Either you stand your position, or you meet him somewhere in the middle. Depends on what you value most. It's up to you.

clarification
 

thank you, but I guess I was also being unclear

I understand the interpersonal nature of relationships and am not looking for validation of my needs vs. his.
I also realize my needs and his need to find a common ground. Thus the issue, thus the argument.

I was actually more looking for feedback on what y'all, in general consider a respectful level (or not) of interpersonal "attention" (informal polling if you will).

I was also, seriously, curious, if anyone had ever found kind and effective ways of addressing subconscious body language issues.


But I get it. Nevermind.

I thought I understood what you were asking and I think its extremely difficult to answer. Everyone's needs/tolerance levels are very different.

i think body language speaks louder than justifications made after the fact.

If this is a habitual thing for him.....he might be trying to shut you out.

does he do that with everyone?

well, the thing is, how would I know: I mean he doesn't do it to other people when I'm there, but...

I think part of it for me is: would your average person find turning completely away (especially in public) a sign of disinterest. I mean, if I am being hypersensitive that is fine. I can live with that and still advocate for myself (needs and needs and they are pesonal, i get it).

But I found myself wondering if my presumption that such body language sent a pat message was off. This matters to me for two reasons

1. If it's something people frequently do to eachother and don't mean to send that message, then I am probably, across the board reading people wrong, presuming dismissal or rudeness not actually generally intended.

2. The subtle nuances of body language are just that: subtle. But if someone transcends from subtle (ie, averting eyes) to not subtle (ie. punching someone in the face) then we are in a different ballpark, generally with an already existing history of rewards and punishments. Obviously there is a big grey continuum surrounding this. But it's one thing to be dealing with a subtle body language issue that will be hard to address, another to say "look, stop punching people in the face. they think it means you don't like them" and not expect ...understanding.

Perhaps you could ask a friend to tactfully observe the two of you together and see what she thinks. I'd suspect that body language isn't something you can learn to "do better," but rather, a subconscious indicator of his feelings.

My DH gets after me all the time for mine - I tend to cross my arms, which is sort of a "closed off" sign. He says I appear unfriendly that way. And he's right, I think. The issue is that he has a problem with my unsocial behavior, and I don't. :)

his body language is saying, "get thee behind me, devil woman, for thou art evil in the most part."

well, that's only prudent.

scores of books have been written on interpreting body language, and they would all agree with you. there is a point at which inattentive "turning away", besides being a sign of either problems within him or problems between you two, becomes simply rude (especially if he is conscious of it). when? i think the only answer to that is the very one you pointed out --"cues any normal person would take badly".
but what about the context of his behavior? if he habitually 'turns away' from everyone then the meaning is a lot less you-specific. i once had a roomate who had a hard time looking anyone in the eyes for long, and would, habitually, physically face away from people he was talking with. over the long run it became obvious he had deep problems and he ended up being institutionalised. the inability to face people was probably a manifestation of this.
then again your bf's 'turning away' may indeed be you-specific. even then there are a number of possible 'meanings'. and again, context might tell you something. does he turn away when you start talking about 'relationship stuff'? does it coincide with criticism or jealous questions?
then there's the possibility that the body language is part of a larger pattern of manipulation that could be considered emotionally abusive. dysfunctional people like leaving things in doubt, and other dysfunctional people assume the worst and react with clinginess. (they make grrrreat couples lol.)
there are simply a lot of possibilities, and they all depend on Context.

only you are actually privy to that context. it would be illogical for any of us to conclude anything based on slim information, and irrational for you to trust the conclusions of persons willing to make conclusions on slim information.

anyway... what i don't recall ever seeing is a book on how to modify another's body language. there are only two things i can think of trying. the first is to just to use open language yourself and see if he eventually follows. the second is to mirror him, but without letting it turn into an exercise in passive-agressive bullshit.
but as you pointed out yourself, body language is only a reflection of something in someone's head, so only addressing body language is unlikely to open things up. it is simply a necessary condition, but not sufficient of itself.
and here we reach a territory i won't enter, both because the number of possible paths is huge, and because they are not paths i travel. perhaps you should be trying to create desire, or trying to assuage some unspoken fear, or balance some mental account left in the red by a previous gf. whatever the answer is, body language will be only one of your tools. and whatever the answer is, it's a question of sales psychology, and not one i ever bother with. when i find myself dealing with a consistently 'closed' person, i just accept that as the limit of the relationship, and if i want more i look elsewhere. yeah, that can be disappointing, but there are tons more fish in this sea.

so, um, sorry if this isnt much help. but it cant be lol. good luck tho

oh, umm, certainly I am not going to run with advice ...well, really, from anyone

I was more trying to make a public gage for perspective

I mean, he's a great guy, and I'm not going fishing elsewhere blah blah blah

But among a forum of strangers while I would never ask for direct advice (ie, what should I do) I would ask for generalized "what would you do, what is your reaction, what has been your experience"

I am realizing now I should have not added the personal context and just asked a vaguer question.
but also, useful response, thank you

Honestly, I'm having a hard time picturing what he's doing. I mean, if you're sitting at a table, he's still mostly facing the table, right? Or is he turning his legs outward entirely? If you're both walking in the same direction, is he ending up walking in front of you, or just turning his head away while you walk side-by-side? To answer your question, yes, I would personally find it very weird to interact with someone like that, but I also can't imagine someone really doing it, so I keep thinking maybe I don't understand what you're describing.

Here's my 1.63 cents (converted from 2 Australian cents):

positive spin:
I note that he mainly does this in public. I recall reading psychological studies that found when a man and woman are together in a public place, the woman spends much more time (70-80% or even more) looking directly at the man and the man spends much less time (25-50%) looking directly at the woman. When not looking at the man, the woman generally looks at other nearby things - food and drink, etc), but the man will frequently glance around at the surroundings.
This was the observations they made. There are various tempting interpretations to put on it, of the hunter-warrior-always-on-alert-to-defend-the-clan theory, but this is a bit of a leap and not needed for today's point, which is:
It is normal for there to be a substantial difference in looking at your partner.

A positive interpretation of it is that he trusts you more than anything else, and is comfortable with you, and is naturally disposed to protect you and have you protecting him (since we are vulnerable from the back).

But, negative spin:
He's not just looking around, but turning away. That's different. The interpretation that he wants more distance between you is tempting. But even if that is correct, that doesn't mean he wants to leave. He just likes a bit more space.

Confused spin. Does he do it much more in public than in private? Interesting, not consistent with the negative theory above.

Practical suggestion: flash your boobs at him occasionally. That'll stop his eyes wandering.

oh yeah, in public
I can't actually imagine how he would do that in private, honestly

and yep, you've got it, like at a table and he's at a 90 degree or more angle from me...and occasionally from that angle total back of head action..still responding and such, but...you get it.

and this isn't all the time (that would totally freak me out, I mean, we've been together years) but frequently enough that I feel like "hey, this is odd body language to feel okay about..."

It could mean many things. I would maybe start paying attention to other indicators since judging a person solely based on a single body language could easily backfire.

Maybe watch how enthusiastic he is with your conversations. That is the main indicator that I look at when talking to someone to see if they are interested or not, but also keep in mind that this is not a guarantee either and my personal judgments with this have backfired on me in the past as well.

Or you could just live with it. Men just aren't as well atuned to this stuff (or something ;) ). beest and I will celebrate our 15th wedding anniversary in a couple of weeks, we've been together for nearly 20 years, but I still often think he's pissed or not paying attention when he isn't/is..... I've just leaned to ask him if he's pissed or just exercising his eybrows/right to silence/right to be off with the fairies....

Maybe he has ADD and just gets distracted? ;)

I'd probably just raise the subject if it were me. In fact, not specifically body language, but due to my husbands difficult childhood, he missed out on learning quite a lot of the normal social cues most people pick up naturally. They're mostly the sort of cues that occur in a relationship between two people so we regularly talk about stuff that he just doesn't get. Not so much these days, but earlier on in our relationship.

Anyway, that's my 1.63 cents worth too.

I think its great that you can communicate about those types of things as (a) couple(s). Its awesome that you both can share in that and work together towards a resolution without it getting bloody :)

It might get bloody tonight if I don't hurry up and think of something nice to say. lol

Try - "have you been workin out? You're lookin awfully sexy." Then give him a wink or two before falling asleep. lol

lol...although I can see the humour in that one, I don't think it'll work in this instance. I'm thinking something simple like, "I'm sorry I was a bitch" might be the best way to go. I just really hate having to admit it was my fault. *sighs*

Ali, go for "When he was all cleaned up he looked just like you."..... you won't need to bother with anything after that

Good! go with that. Its much better than my suggestion anyway.

Hmmm...that has some merit too. lol But kind of missing the point of making up for being a trog. Maybe I could do both. :)

you could always "accidentally" call Max - lil dazza... it'll be all forg....what?

Body language... language... does everybody speak the same language? Probably not.

If you feel he's not paying attention, maybe it's because he's secure enough in the relationship to not act like it's the first date all the time.

eh
I've just decided to turn the other way myself


and take my shirt off.

I would make a game of seeing how far I away I could get before he noticed. His challenge could be figuring out how to get home once you've left with the car...

lmao. you're all heart jinx.

ali: there's never any substitute for a straight-up acknowledgement of bad behavior imo. if i'v only been a little out of line i may make fun of myself if i recognise it immediately, and if i only get around to it later i like to apologise seriously and directly, say thanks for any acceptance, and then move directly on to something cheerful. i try to accept apologies totally and immediately too(tho not if it's over something that's been clogging the air between us for a month, or something that's been apologised for before and then repeated --in this sort of case their willingness to let it fester detracts from any perception of sincerity for me). i find it troublesome if someone wants to re-hash every little thing after getting an apology, but never as troublesome as seeing someone want to either a) act like nothing happened, or b) try to buy their way out of an acknowledgement with favors. this last thing leaves mental detritus behind to trip over later, to become the foundation of resentments. consistent non-acknowledgement makes me think i'm dealing with a fearful and dishonest person eventually, and pretty much ruins a relationship for me.
of course, ideally, there's rarely any wrong to acknowledge.

just another person's 2 cents.....

pics or it never happened

I say we call Click and Clack and let them tell us what is broken and how to fix it.

I've read that women prefer to communicated face to face and the men prefer to communicate while facing in the same direction. Dunno if that has anything to do with this.

I'm with the people here who say that what matters here is how you two resolve this, not what other people think is "normal".
Try to discuss it with your partner when you're not upset, and try not to use confrontational language. I'm all for communication between a couple when there's something bothering one or other of them.

Don't sweat the small stuff. If you like him, like HIM. Not what you think he ought to be.

:lol: This was my exact suggestion... great minds think alike!

I would not personally be OK with the turning away/ignoring in public.

Hey daff0dil,

Would you favor us with an update please? I followed this thread with equal parts silence and interest. And now my interest exceeds my silence.

So? Spill!

You mean Kobe Bryant should have just apologized and not bought her a $4million diamond ring? :haha:

classic and zen seem very wise in their response. lol @ the practical suggestion tho. Took me off guard.

I would probably ask if I was doing anything that would cause him to turn away from me and not include me in the conversation.Even if I didn't believe I was I would state it in a non confrontational way.

Of course that would be a digression and probably viewed as weak and probably why I am single.

My natural impulse would be to excuse myself if it made me too uncomfortable. THEN veiw how my re-entrance was recieved or noticed. Bet you anything there would be a smile and a hi.


I actually haven't had that happen though. Not after I spilled the beer in his lap. anyho. Accdentally I assure you.

You spilled beer in his lap?
That's alcohol abuse!

No it's not, it's Redneck Foreplay.

I think I saw that in a movie once. I think it worked.

How can you spot a redneck woman? She has a hickey and a black eye at the same time.

LOL - a young lad in one of my classes is currently sporting at least five major love-bites around his neck. I'm not sure if he is dating a gummy vampire or a lamprey.

I hope he's not dating a tick!

You'll never forget about that goddamn tick, will you??? :lol:

Actually, this lad is very tall (by Chinese standards) so his neck was probably as high as the girl could reach.

I just overheard a couple of tradesmen chatting in the lift.

I missed the start of the conversation, but apparently applying single malt whiskey to the scrotum is very painful. :eek: :rolleyes:

Ha!

oucH I would never actually intentionally dump a drink in my partners lap.

or head for that matter. I always wonder at how when watching shows the man never gets upset at having the cocktail thrown in his face. I am not even sure that is something that happens in reality anyway.

Oh it happens. I threw a drink in my ex's face once when I caught him canoodling with another woman on the dance floor.

Our relationship was more or less over bar the shouting by this point anyway. He didn't seem to care much either way. Knowing him, he was probably happy to absorb a drink through his pores.

Many years ago I tipped a Carlsberg Special Brew all over my best friend as I'd told her I did NOT need another one when she went to the bar.
Someone else bought the round and she was just the messenger.
A very sticky one after this incident ...