What does being a man mean to you?
 

How would you describe the best virtues of modern manhood? What would you try to teach your son about being a man? Has your viewpoint changed over the years?

I ask because I have no clue (not being a man nor having a son). I'm serious, and curious as to what you think.

Being a man means never having to say you're sorry.

Wait, no, that's love.

Umm being a man means never having to admit you are wrong. If you are single.

It means nothing to me (Vienna).

End of thread, really.

Honestly, we usually play the "in this family we do X" card rather than "a real man does X," because we have yet to come across a quality that we didn't want to have apply to the girls as well. It's ultimately a pride thing--teaching them to take pride in doing the right thing, whatever that may be at the time.

Hector's the one on the right....

It applies to both, but I tried to teach my sons to do the right thing even if no one else was around.

Not having to sit down to take a leak.


Seriously, though, you ask a good question and I am slowly brewing up a proper answer. Gimme a few hours.

Killing the spiders.

Or, preferably, catching them and taking them outside.

And always being wrong if you are married.

Real men don't have to define themselves for anyone ...

... and they don't eat quiche!

Wow this is a loaded question! There is probably no completely right or completely wrong answer due to every person's needs and desires are different which leads women to seek men with different traits. While some women seek the 'bad boys' others seek the men with a softer approach to life. I'm very fortunate to have finally found a man whose core is made of both traits. He is both the 'bad boy' and the 'gentle giant'.

Heavy thread Cloud. Filled with many possibilities. I will have to think on this to give you a proper answer.

I'm with these guys. My angle is identifying what qualities should my daughters look for.

Surely, what qualities/traits they would look for that they wouldn't expect to find in both men and women...

well, I'm getting a lot responses commenting what women look for in a man or relating the question to man/woman relationships; but that's not really what I'm looking for. And I agree, there should be parity of desirable traits for people of both genders. But that's not really what I'm hoping to hear.

You can't tell me that men don't think about "manly" stuff, regardless of whether it's pc to say males and females should have the same virtues. (And by stuff, I do not mean pron!) Expected male behavior has changed so much in the last 50 years, thanks in part to a great deal of hard work by women, that I'm thinking it must be a very hard idea to pin down.

What do modern men think is proper male behavior? Do you still believe it's important to support the family and protect the women and children? To be aggressive and stick up for your friends on the playground? To be a champion burper? What?

Well, I know you're fed up from hearing from me, but it strikes me that it's not an uncommon belief that public introspection is not a manly trait, so you maybe be starting on an uneven keel here.....

an even keel . . . that's a boat thing, so that's manly!

I'm the champion belcher in our house (and I'm a gurl).

1. I don't think there is such a thing as proper male behavior. It's defined by every man himself.

2. Everyone has to contribute to a family. Everyone contributes what they can. There are no gender boundaries on contributions. In my relationship I make more money, prepare more meals, fix things around the apartment and do a good share of the cleaning. My girlfriend does more cleaning, takes care of the cat, and washes more dishes.

A man protects anyone he can if necessary and possible. Especially if they are less able to protect themselves.

3. Physical aggression is almost always inappropriate, except in sports. Intellectual and professional aggression is necessary, especially when it is paired with teamwork and cooperation. It's a balance.

4. I think I hit on it in 3. Balance. A modern man is more a balance of traditional, stereotypical and psychological gender traits. This has long been the case in the upperclasses. Now all but the lowliest motherfuckers are a blend of masculine and feminine.

I am sensitive, gentle and share my feelings. I am also aggressive in competition, and can push further and faster when caught up in testosterone-fueled brotherhood. I love babies and puppies. I sometimes break things by misjudging my strength.

Cloud, you said you were serious and I've been mulling on this for a little bit now, I have some more mulling to do.

Initially I'd like to say that I don't like the push to be equal in all things male and female. I think that is just, well, not what I like. Sure men and women should have the same character traits of honesty and fair play. Men and Women are different in many ways and I think the modern man in many ways is allowing himself to be bowled over by the PC horse hockey machine, which in my opinion would make our society a genderless homogenous, we are all the same blah blah blah.

Truth #1

only by a man posting truth #2 can we lay this belief down.


( mostly I thought it was just very funny )

I call bs on that. Can you name a female philosopher? I'm sure there are some (thinks).

There are no right or wrong answers, I don't think; and I'm not trying to make men justify their relationships or their sensitivity. I don't care if you wash the dishes or if your wife changes the oil in your car. I'm just looking for some simple wisdom about what you think it means to be a man, a father, a brother . . .

take your time, gents.

Simone de Beauvoir and Ayn Rand to name two. Wikepedia has a big old long list of them.

My actions are going to be viewed as good and normal by my daughters, setting the bar for their relationships. That means I have a say in the world my Grandchildren will inhabit. I cannot then engage in activities that are corrosive to the family or not be present for my kids. This also has the positive effect of being good for me. Right actions would include treating my love well and exclude being a typical Irish drunk.

I still need to engage my primitive side if I'm going to feel whole, that means building stuff, having guy/nature time, and engaging in something competitive. There is a fuzzy line between being too engaged in self stuff and not doing enough. It takes some reflection and will always be imperfectly executed.

Cloud, have you seen the poem by Rudyard Kipling about being a man? Someone posted it here awhile back. It's got some nice pithy bits.

I'm guessing this is something for your impending grandsons?

yes, it got me thinking. At least one grandson--and the possibility of one more. I'll look for the poem.

@ Griff.great response.

Thanks!

Well, that is because women at the time were not permitted to 'think' and so .....we still attempt to overcome the squashing down of of any independent thought. sometimes

Haven't you noticed that the perceived smart females of the day can spit cuss and talk like a man ?

Now you have me thinking cloud. Were there any female philosophers before the 1900's?

yes, I know there are female philosophers, really. There were a few, particularly religious women. There was one in the middle ages . . . Isabel? Santa Teresa? Nevermind! Irrelevant! the point is that there are a lot more male philosophers, so men can be introspective.

What does it mean to be a man?

That I have a penis, and women do not.

Beyond that, there is no answer to this question.

Physically, genetically, biologically, we are different from women.

Beyond that, nothing else matters, because we are all completely different, with different thoughts, different abilities, different desires, etc... not one of these, however, defining us as "men," or being "what makes a man, to us."

The only thing that makes us men, that defines us as men, would be the physical differences inherent in all males.

Since when was philosophy purely introspection?

This will probably change as I get older but my generalizing separation is a man will respond to situations logically and not emotionally.


I meant that as man versus boy BTW. It also applies to woman versus girl.

I think your Man Vs Boy rather than Man Vs Woman point is an excellent one, and really helps.

If your point about responding rationally rather than emotionally is correct, then I know lots of very big boys and girls.

On philosophy - female philosophers have been very rare until recently and are still only a small minority - probably less than 25% of tenured academics, at a guess based on personal experience.

Perhaps the earlist female philosopher (in the modern sense) was Harriet Taylor, colleage and later wife of John Stuart Mill. In the 20th century, De Beauvoir and Hillary Putnam were among the earliest to be significant, and even now it is hard to think of "prominent" female philosophers. I can name several who are a little better-known than average - Cynthia Macdonald and Rae Langton - but even for this I am straining.

My observations of this topic are both for professional and personal :doit: reasons. And no, there isn't much :doit: going on in philosophy departments.

Oh and while some philosophy is introspective - Hume, Kant, much modern European philosophy - quite a lot is dialectical - sit around a table and argue. Perhaps a kind of collective introspection. Facts and empirical research do occasionally make an appearance, but are not always required.

Welcome to the Cellar, Emma. :D We love comedians.

A*n R*nd

Hey just because you don't believe doesn't mean she wasn't prominent

I, along with probably everyone else here, does as well. Personally, I felt that one of the biggest change for me in the past few years is that I am starting to act in a more rational "what is the best response to this situation" from my previously impulsive reaction. I fully admit I still act emotionally and I'm sure everyone will to a point but this is more of a generalization then a clear cut rule.

So I wrote a list of required best friend virtues and required man virtues and this was the only one that wasn't on both:

Must have a willy.

"Required" by you? What the hell does what you require, have to do with what we require, how we define, ourselves?

Women will never be equal to men..
until they can walk down the street with a bald head and a beer gut, and still think they are sexy.

Good point, I wasn't thinking of her as a philosopher though. In a broad reading of the term I guess she has to count. [/begrudgingly].

Pssst... post #24.

Psst.... hush now, don't highlight my stupidity.

So I see a Newb has decided to :stickpoke Bruce.

:corn:

High school attention whore with a penny on her hip.:rolleyes:

Penny on her hip?

Is that like a chip on her shoulder? No seriously, I've never heard that expression before.

Well there was Christine de Pizan for a kick off, in the middle ages :P Not to mention the later Mary Wollstonecraft. Worth recalling though, that when Wollstonecraft was writing in the 18th century, she was referred to by some as 'a female politician', an 'Amazonian' and 'an Unsex'd Female'.

Somehow men managed to carve themselves the twin roles of introspection and silence, philospher and plain minded speaker, sensitive romantic and unfrilled defender.

Men can be introspective and still retain a sense of manliness which relies on a lack of the same. There is little about our sense of gender that is not problematic in some way.

The mods and the admins here pretty much want to be treated like everyone else, so they don't advertise the fact that they are mods. If you are worried about it, you should assume that everyone is a mod or that nobody is.

What being a man means to me
 

To answer your question more directly, it means embracing his differences, emphasizing chivalry, courage, honor and trustworthiness.

There are few if any role models left these days and it is up to fathers to teach and inculcate these values in America's youth. The Boy Scouts try, but fail.

On the other hand, you asked what manhood means to ME.

To ME, it means a lifetime of enslavement, repression, misery, loneliness, sadness and tears. A prison from which I will in all likelihood never escape.

Manhood is as much a societal construct as it is a state of being.

Defining manhood is a difficult thing, any more than defining womanhood is. Manhood means more than the mere possession of a penis and testicles. It is a state of mind as well as being.

Ask any veteran who has lost his to a land mine if HE'S still a man or not. Cancer causes many men every year to lose their testicles. Are they any less a man than an intact one is? What about accident victims? Burn victims?

For that matter, is a woman any less a woman for undergoing a hysterectomy? Or Bilateral masectomy?

Is it the package, which can be altered? Or the state of mind, the personal identity that defines one's gender?

No. I'm not a moderator.

Welcome to the Cellar, by the way.

A man's true greatness lies in the consciousness of an honest purpose in life, founded on a just estimate of himself and everything else, on frequent self-examination, and a steady obedience to the rule which he knows to be right, without troubling himself, as the emperor says he should not, about what others may think or say, or whether they do or do not do that which he thinks and says and does.

-Marcus Aurelius Antoninus.

Ole Marcus said it much better then I, and he said it first.

What should being a man mean to you (one woman's perspective):

Being honest, being gentle but not a pushover, being strong but not a bully, being caring but not a pansy-ass. Oh, and honest. And, honest.

(Did I mention honesty? You know, it's hardly ever heard.) ;)

Because that construct is a moving target, that's the rub... balancing what's currently expected, what's politically correct, with what I feel is right.
State of mind defines me, gender is only one of the things affecting that state of mind.

The package can definitely be altered, from the external events you described, to simply aging, and the contents also changes. ;)
While my perception of right and wrong, my "core values", probably remain pretty much steady, my behavior will change. Behavior in relation to society, is more reaction, than action.

Being true to One's self whether male or female is the ultimate beginning of shaping a person into who they are.