The Leader's Debate
 

Grrrrrrrrr. F£$%ing bastard politics.

Why am I watching this? It just pisses me off. I'm not sure what pisses me off more; the leaders themselves, or the public (myself included) and the constant doublethink we play out on what we think we want from them.

Boooo .... schools don;t promote learning for learning's sake; too much management, teachers doing too much paperwork. Booo police should be out ion the streets instead of filling out paper work...

Great. Good points. But we fucking asked for this. Police forces were failing; schools were failing; social services were failing. How do we fix them? Well, first we need to identify the problems. How do we do that? By assessing process and result. How do we assess process and result, without putting an inspector into every classroom and walking the beat next to every police officer? We demand reports and measurements.

We demand that 'failing school's are identified and fixed. How do we do that if we don't have a measurable standard? How do we measure the standard if every school is doing its own thing entirely. If there isn't parity in how they are assessed, how can we be sure any of those assessments are valid?

We, the electorate, have demanded and been bought off by promises of greater 'accountability', 'informed choice', 'measurable standards' and 'quality control'. So, we ripped the control of schools and police from the local councils and put them into the hands of regional boards, local (private) groups and federations. We designed curricula and tied down every measurable standard against which to measure success and failure and built systems of intervention where failure was identified. Lo and behold, that has become the main sway of schooling and police work. So now we are demanding more freedom for teachers, and less paperwork for police. great stuff. But we forget that there was a whole other set of problems associated with lack of reporting and lack of measurability that all this bullshit was designed to counter.

It did counter it. It just brought its own completely different set of problems with it.

I sit here and listen to the three leaders and nobody is willing to admit (and why would they, we'd fucking crucify them if they did) that WE GOT WHAT WE ASKED FOR.

And now the party leaders of the two opposition parties are talking about reducing paperwork, and putting power into the hands of teachers and headmasters...

Great stuff. But one of them is the leader of the conservatives who spent their own administration privatising the fuck out of schools and destroying teachers' working conditions, training, funding and unions, and were the ones who (at OUR request) took schools out of local council governance and also (at OUR request) tied the teachers' and headteachers' hands behind their backs with standardised curricula.

The other, can't be judged on record because they've never had power, but was almost certainly along for the ride when we as a public were demanding clearer indications of school and pupil performance.

Gordon Brown meanwhile, is fighting for his survival and daren't actually say : there ye go! That's what you asked for.

This is what pisses me off about politics. The fuck off big crowd of elephants in the room. The disingenuous nature of any and all questions and answers that don' actually take them into account.

So we have people criticising a system for too much paperwork and too many targets. They say: we need to know this. We need to be sure of this. We demand that all schools are equally good. We demand all hospitals provide equally good care. How do we measure that if there is no paperwork? When there was little or no paperwork, there was little or no accountability and little or no way to measure standards and lo and behold there was no fucking parity whatsoever. And we all cried about post code lotteries and bad teachers being left in post.

£"$%^

I've already rehearsed my speech for when (if? they didn't doorstep for the last election) the Tories come calling; why does David Cameron hate Britain so much? He's always on Five Live when I'm in the shower. And always like the hateful papers the 'rents read - Britain has failed, Britain is shit, Britain is a shitty, cocksucking, awful place etc etc etc.

I'm officially allied with the LibDems this election. Mum paid for me to join the party. She agreed with you - it gets me out of the house. And I'm not against their policies after all. Although working in a school I do wonder what will happen to "20 pupils a class". "My" school has two classes of 30 in Year Two. Where are the other 20 going to go?!

I don't hate Labour. But I don't think they have any chance of winning this election. I don't want the Tories to win, but I suspect they'll get this seat :( I want Steven Lambert to win this seat; at the very least he'll commute (like my bro) and not waste money on a second home.

I'm stuffing envelopes and delivering leaflets for the cause anyway. Colour me yellow.

I think it's brilliant that you've joined the campaign. In truth, politically speaking, a large swathe of Lib Dems and a large swathe of Labour are pretty aligned.

Electioneering is a bloody good way to get fit and active, I found. I haven;t been so involved this time around. I'll maybe do a little leafletting at some point. But most years for quite a few I've been doorstepping and leafletting.

Sounds like the US.

Dana, the thread title confuses me.

There was a debate by the three major leaders of the leading political parties today in the UK.

Feck. That's what happens when I post in an angry frame of mind ...

Should have been Leaders' debate.

Feckity feck, feck, feck, fecking twat.

Feck.

twat.

Is my sense of political dislocation coming through loud and clear yet?

Thanks Dana. That made me laugh.

:P I aim to please !

Dana, you're far too honest for politics.

And you have put your finger on the basic problem with democracy - a substantial proportion of the general population are not actually much good at making governmental decisions. Still, it does at least allow for the occasional change in regime, which seems to do a bit of good.

this thread is rife with words i will never read

Thanks for letting me know that Jim :P


This thread was a form of therapy. Writing it was more important to me than you reading it. It's a rant.

UK does only in five months what is now almost constant in the US.

Is that a real sentence?

don't be sad.

i was just saying that it has my top 3 turn offs

1: it's about politics
2: The OP is really fucking long
3: it's about politics

One great thing about British national elections is the short campaign season.

So. with the election just days away, predictions from the Cellar Brits?

Will the Tories win outright?

Will they win the popular vote but Labour win more seats in Parliament?

Will there be a hung parliament with Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats emerging as king maker?

I guess that the Lib Dems will do better than polls indicate, because voting is not compulsory.
So many people are wholly disillusioned by the Labor / conservative pair, that I suspect many just wont bother. This plays into the hands of minor parties. I hope it goes for the LDs and not the BNP.

All I know is that the nation is drifting to the right and that always worries me.

Hung parliament imo.
And queasy deals done in smoke-free rooms.

I think the more marginal parties will have more of a say. Which I suppose is good politics. But eats into the only real benefit of the first-past-the-post system. Which is that socially advanced policies can be introduced - like votes for women, the abolition of hanging, the legalisation of abortion etc.

Of coutse YMMV depending on your place on the political spectrum.
My Dad says he'd vote for any party that proposed to bring back the Death Penalty.

Thats true of all the parties. That will never change.

Hmm

Well now what?

Hung Parliament.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/p...10/8667938.stm

Er, quite.............

Oh, that's a good one.

That was a nailbiting election night!

How's you do? I heard on the radio that overall, labor didn't do so well.

Well, Labour lost the election essentially. But... the Conservatives (currently the opposition) didn't win a majority. So, now we end up either with a Conservative minority government in conjunction with Lib Dem and unionist support; or, if the Cons and Lib dems can't reach agreement, we may end up with a coalition of the centre left parties, with Labour and Lib Dems running the show, along with support from Welsh or Scottish centre left parties.

Right now, it's impossible to say.

What's intriguing is that despite Brown's unpopularity and despite being 13 years into a labour government, the Conservatives didn't manage to bring in enough gains to give them a majority. That's incredible. A year ago I'd have laid money on a Conservative landslide.

In local terms, my MP is still Labour. The neighbouring seat we lost to the Conservatives, but that was always likely to go no matter what the national picture ended up.

no? I don't understand your surprise.

Usually if a Prime Minister and governing party is deeply unpopular there is a landslide to the other side. This didn't happen. despite Labour and Brown's unpopularity, the Conservatives did not manage to gain a majority.

When the Labour Party took power in 1997 it was with a massive majority; likewise when the Conservatives took power in the 70s it was a wipeout for Labour.

Hung parliaments are incredibly rare. That we've ended up with one at this time, with a Prime Minister who has been dead in the water (seemingly) for months, I'd have expected the Conservatives to have done much better than they did.

I have to admit that despite my disappointment in the poor showing by the LibDems (ANOTHER 4 years of David Liddington in Aylesbury :() I did grin at the same thing you did. The papers have been blaming everything from the Ash Cloud to Wayne Rooney's injuries on Brown all year. But the Tories still weren't able to clinch the deal.

Also, heard a Tory voter on the radio this morning complaining in an honestly shocked voice that the first past the post system was a travesty and in no way reflected the opinion of the country. Yep, try being a LibDem sweetheart, we've been saying it for years.

I was sneakily glad they didn't even manage to scrape enough seats for a minority Government. Har-de-har. Not as good as you thought you were, Dave.

Sorry. I'm allowed to sneer. I had precious little other political pleasure today. I think the best we can hope for is another election very soon. And who in their right mind would really wish for that?

gotcha Dani - I had it backwards.

I did find an interactive map with the results here.

If the Conservatives and Lib dems don't manage to cut a deal; we could end up in a bizarre situation in which the second and third parties (in terms of number of seats and in terms of percentage of the vote) could form a coalition government; leaving the first party (in terms of both seats and percentage of the vote) in opposition.

The whole thing is frightfully un-British. :eyebrow:

Oh god. My eyes are bleeding.

I Sky+d Channel 4's Alternative Election Show last night.
Given the exit polls - and the fact I was in school this morning - I didn't want to stay up to watch it. I learned my lesson in 1992 and you don't always get a Portillo Moment after all.

Just been watching Brian Cox.
Lovely. Must make an effort to be more intersted in particle physics. Not that I'm shallow enough to be swayed by a cheeky face of course.

Must note - I was so disappointed in my accent location.
I thought he sounded just like Jeremy Dyson. But Dyson was born and educated in Leeds and Cox in Oldham/ Manchester.

Still, I think they both went to private schools. I use that thin and tenuous thread to excuse myself from confusing the two accents.

I lurve Brian Cox!

The Alternative Election Show was awesome. David Mitchell and Charlie Brooker? Doing political anorak humour, on election night? Great stuff :)

Our local MP down 'ere in the West was a Tory, and still is, but with a bigger majority which nobody is surprised about except the LibDem candidate who did very seriously fancy his chances. Our result came in at just before 2a.m without a recount which we have always needed in previous years.

I too relish the possibility that Cleggie and Cameron fail to strike a deal and we end up with the two losers running the show. The fact that it is just possible fills me with hope and not a little glee. In reality though - we are headed for another dark period of Conservative rule. (Have just seen Clegg on telly news with a priceless expression on his face, that of a naughty mischievious 16 year old lad wondering if anyone knows quite how filthy he's just been...?!) And how sad (;)) to see Lembit bite the bullet.

The fun's not over and Gordon's still in number 10, but is he packing?

I caught a glimpse of live BBC coverage on CSPAN at midnight last night (5 am UK).

What I found most unusual - all the candidates in the district standing together on stage while the results are announced...from the big three to the littlest independent or nationalist.

Very civil!

Oh, and doesnt Labour get the first crack at forming a govt. Would the LDs join if Labour dumped Browne?

What effect did the war in Afghanistan have on the vote?

@ Redux: yes, constitutionally that is the incumbent's prerogative; however, the Lib dems are talking first to the Conservatives as the largest party and if they cannot find a workable coalition then they will talk to Brown. In theory Brown cuold just refuse to resign and try form a government; but with no mandate and no Lib Dem support it's unlikely. There would just be a vote of no confidence as soon as Parliament opened. If the Conservatives and Lib dems say they can form a government together, Brown will resign as Prime Minister and Cameron will seek permission from the Queen to form a government.

Whatever happens now, it is highly likely that we will go to an election again within a year, or even within 6 months.


@ Bruce: very little I think. It added to some of the negative noise; but mostly in terms of troops not being properly supplied and it mainly affected communities who'd experienced losses. It was not one of the bigger issues. The economy, the deficit, the health service, education, immigration, environmental issues, all seemed to have a higher place on the agenda. Probably the two biggest issues were the economy (including what cuts will be seen in services etc), immigration and the expenses scandal.

I hope in the end it comes down to the one and only Green Party member ever elected to Parliament. A green power broker! :D (green smile)

Green arty? Bah, they'll just roll 'm and smoke 'em.

...while saving animals and stopping war!
:D

Dana and SG, how do you think the parties in the UK compare to the parties in the US. Basically...

In what way?
That's a dissertation, shurely?

In fact I might lazily leave it to Dani anyway, her answer will be more comprehensive than mine.

Basically our three main parties are pretty much to the left of your two main parties. There are some far right politicians, but they are reined in by their Party Head to an extent. That's painting with a very broad brush of course, you must have some left wing politicians which come in at about centre, and some of our right wing politicians would be comfortable in the Republican party.

S*I*G*H*

We're now officially in bed with the enemy.
Nick Clegg has agreed to form a coalition with David Cameron.

Tis true, may be the best thing for the country - the Tories are tempered by the LibDems and neither are tainted with the public and media unhappiness with Brown.

Tis true, it's the most powerful position the LibDems could hope for given the first past the post system.

Tis true a hung Parliament is actually MORE representative than any single party forming a Government.

But Cameron is our Prime Minister.
But we are back under Tory rule.
But we're swinging to the right.
But we ARE in bed with the enemy.

At least my liberal mettle is being tested. All I can say in true liberal stylee is that I can put my personal issues aside if it's best for the country.

Oh - as an aside, I'm so glad the Gordon Brown haters are finally silenced. Churchill these days is a hero, not questioned, statesman of the century, greatest Brit ever lived.... Yeah. He was only elected to office once (1951) and that with a minority Government. He presided over a coaltion government due to coalition.

Brown was not Churchill, I'm just saying knee-jerk public opinion does not always stand the test of time.

And also all the right wing press frothing at the mouth that Brown was still in Number 10 the day after the election?! Whaaaa?! Are they really pretending to have no idea how this country works? There was no-one to replace him until after talks were held. We are a country at war. Would they have a man who does not even have enough seats to form a minority goverment moving into number 10 just for the sake of it? At least Americans have a set handover period.

So. I'm not entirely hapy with the outcome.
But I acknowledge it could have been worse.
And as already stated, I do look forward to the reaction of the right wing press who have been demonising Clegg for months...

She said taint. Heh heh...

[childish] Libs and Cammie, sitting in a treee [/childish]


*grins*

's all good Sundae.

I wonder, will this coalition outlast Mrs Cameron's pregnancy?

Dunno....how long does a human-lizard hybrid take to gestate?

Watch the new version of V... ;)

hhahahahahah. That's exactly what i had in mind ;:P

Candy Cam is an alien. Has to be.


@ Sundae: am I the only one who gets a slight frisson every time the news describes Cameron and his cabinet 'getting down to business' Oh yeah. Sexy Con-Libs ftw.

Eeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwww!
I'd watch the Clegg getting it on, but with Cam?!
Enough to turn me homophobic!

I reckon when the doors are closed all the Lib dems pole dance and the tories stick tenners down their g-strings.

I chuckle a bit when I think that SG and Dana might be among the more conservative Brits I interact with. On a football board a couple of guys I get along great with for the most part spit venom at the thought of a guy who married into WalMart wealth being an owner of Arsenal FC. They literally feel the club is partially owned by satan because of that evil capitalist. nevermind that they want more money for transfers...

lol. Neither Sundae or myself would be considered conservative over here.

I soften my politics somewhat whilst online. I can only assume you are socialising with SWP members if they make me look conservative ;P

i really really try to avoid mixing politics with football so I don't know what they really believe beyond knowing they hyperventilate anytime they think of Stan Kroenke gaining ownership of Arsenal. I don't support a Kroenke take over but that has nothing to do with Walmart - I just like my club to have a multi owner structure.

Most Brit footy fans would throw a clot at the thought of an American businessman owning their team. I suspect it's that, rather than anti-capitalism :P

No, no, it really is the Walmart tie in. Obviously they aren't thrilled at the idea of an american, but they say better an american than a russian or a saudi... unless the american has connections to the great satan that is walmart.

yea. Walmart is pretty hated.

I boycotted Asda stores for several years when Walmart took 'em over ;P

Fucking anti-union employers.