Atheists Unite
 

Not really, the poll is anon, but I gotta say, once I got over the general culture shock, being an atheist has been one of the hardest things about living here ...and I live in a gay-friendly college town. I really, really don't believe in any form of higher being/whatever, despite having superstitious tendancies (which I generally keep in check). But I find even the people closest to my way of thinking do the church thing as some form of insurance.....

this thing:

believe/there is a god -WIN
believe/there is no god -no loss
don't believe/there is a god -BIG LOSE
don't believe/there is no god -no victory


So I would be interested to know how many here truly don't believe. You won't be named, God/G-d/Allah won't know. ;)

Based on the thread title, I think you will end up with a skewered pole.

Funny.

I question things. Like: why is there even a question of taking into account or not taking into account something that there is no way of knowing, AND that I would never have thought of on my own/doesn't make sense to me. Why would I even question that? OF FUCKING COURSE I wouldn't.

is why it's in nothingland despite being rly frkn srs

I went "not atheist" because I'm agnostic. I don't really believe that the possibility of a higher being is very high, but I'm not gonna deny there is a possibility. I think we (people) just have no way of truly knowing either way and those that claim to know are just kinda being egotistical.

You mean skewered hebrew right?

I'm going to Hell
Im going to Hell
I'm going to Hell

Oh wait


No Nirvana for me at this time
No Nirvana for me at this time
No Nirvana for me at this time

Total atheist here. No doubts, no questions, no hedging, no need.

You think those who believe will ignore?

No doubts, questions, hedging or need here either. I'm completely sure that I'm not sure.

I used to though. I used to say that I don't believe in man's god, but how on earth could I possible know that there isn't some kind of creator? Now I just don't care. If my mind cant go there, then whats the point.

I am polytheistic. I believe in lots and lots o' gods. As many as I can.

I don't mind religious people so long as they don't expect everyone else to take their make-believe game as seriously as they do.

Atheists can relate to agnostics and believers, without being hypocritical, by substituting both the past and the future for God while People form the present giving them free will. Atheists can devote time (i.e. do the church thing) to be sociable and reflect on past lessons related to future concerns; but, I wouldn't think very highly of people who did the church thing simply as some form of ritualistic insurance payment.

Agree.
I don't judge them on what they believe but I am allowed an opinion on the way they behave. The road to hell is not paved with tolerance, no matter what the magic book says.

This.
Which I think is best described by agnostic?

I've been an atheist since I was 14 years old.

Initially I think I was probably an agnostic. I held out the notion that there might be a god of some sort.

Then I started reading science books and decided I am a total atheist. 100%



[eta] when I was working at the MYCCI doing literacy tutoring, I was surprised by how many of my work colleagues believed in God. I'd say probably 70% of the people working there held some kind of belief, either as an out and out Christian, or in a more tentative form.

Really surprised me. Not an environment I am used to. In my life generally, I have found that far fewer believe. Over here, we tend to see church and Jesus as something for kidlings and grannies.

We've talked about it before on here, but there is a definate imbalance between how much religion we are exposed to as children and how many of us then go on to be religious. Unlike the States, over here all state-funded schools are by law organised 'along broadly Christian principles' and, our kids are given Christian assemblies and take part in collective acts of worhsip. Many of our state schools are in fact 'Faith' schools. My primary school was nominally a Church of England school. But probably less than 25% of the intake were from church-going families. Just as many muslims and non-religious children attend the local Catholic school. In fact faith schools are obligated to take a certain amount of children not attached to the church. Everything about our state is intertwined with religion. Both the BBC, and ITV, the biggest independant broadcaster are obliged as part of their licence agreements to provide a certain amount of faith-based programming on radio and tv. Though religious organizations are not allowed, by law, to own and operate national terrestrial stations. Most people in Britain of my age will have spent at least some portion of their Sundays, growing up, watching religious programmes (probably as a way of avoiding homework for Monday) like Songs of Praise.

As a primary school child (kindergarten/elementary) the last thing we did every day before leaving school, was to pray as a class:

'Hands together,
Eyes shut tight
I pray the lord
keep me safe tonight'

Our education is steeped in it, even in schools that only pay lipservice to the legal requirements for christian prayer and gathering.

Yet, we are a very irreligious bunch.

Over in the States, your children are protected from religion in schools. State and church are not intertwined. Yet you are a far more religious society all in all.

This is very interesting. And I missed the skewered/skewed pole/poll last night (and I'm not entirely sure I get it), but do people think the way I worded the question will lead to biased results?

And yes, MTP, I wanted agnostic to go in the "not atheist" category. I wanted to know how many are totally and utterly sure there is no god.

Last night I learned my friend -who I was pretty sure was atheist- told me she had three weddings -one in front of a JP and then one in each of their respective churches. I commented/assumed it was to keep the relatives happy, but apparently no, it was so their kids could be baptized in the respective churches. Just in case. She says atheist, but to me that's agnostic. Not that there's anything wrong with being agnostic, it's just that I'm not.

She said just in case in regards to their souls or maybe just their social standing later on? I remember going to a few Sunday school sessions when I was very young yet my Mom was an atheist. She said she did it so that I wouldn't be socially ostracized. (This was back in the 60's)

I think it's the thread title rather than the actual poll that might skewer the results.

I call myself agnostic but it's not without a wince when I say the word. It seems so fence-sitting, to not even have conviction that you have no conviction. Also, I never believed that "believing just in case" was any kind of real belief at all.

I like to believe we are all energy. When we die, that energy goes back into the natural world, not into some spiritual realm. I may lean on my heritage when I say that 'nature' is our god.

I liked what foot says about believing in as many gods as he can. ;)

I went to a Catholic elementary school. I remember being a kid lying awake at night trying to process 'eternity' and not just eternity but our role in it. Like, if you lied to your mom you would burn in eternal hellfire. No, you are done. That is it. You effed up and now you will suffer for 'all of eternity.' When we were in Jr Hi we had to go to CCD classes. In HS, it was up to us. I didn't go back.

I'd love to believe there is some kind of magical paradise we get to go to, a place where our loved ones are. But hoping for that belief does not make me a believer.

However, for the purpose of this poll, I will have to say "not atheist."

Maybe the poll would be better if it offered more options:

Definately believe in God
Believe in some kind of higher spirit
Don't believe in God, but open to the idea/undecided
Definately believe there is no God

@ Infi: sounds to me like you are an agnostic atheist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheists


Maybe you should have selected atheist after all :P

But the fence is already digging into my ass! :lol:

I think I defined the word agnostic too loosely. I had no idea there were branches of that, even.

I wish I could just make up my mind! I can't even buy any of the bumper stickers, I'm so wishy washy where these things are concerned!

Logically, if I consider how the belief in god(s) originated in the first place, there is just no way to continually carry on with it. Its a total shut down of the rational mind otherwise. Once its concluded that any (supernatural/supreme) god man has come up with is suspect, then any other thinking along those lines is too.

ETA: And yet, there was a time in my life that I was really into astrology and how it defines personalities...so go figure. We are always searching for definitions/explanations of some sort.

Beautifully put.


One of the things I find frustrating about the God/No God debate is that anybody who is sure in their own mind that God does not exist is characterised as arrogant in that surety. How can we possibly know for sure that there is no God? Well, by the same token how can we possibly know for sure that there isn't a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow, or that unicorns don't exist?

If I say I am absolutely sure in my own mind that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, or the Toothfairy, nobody takes me to task for my arrogance.

My more cynical self (naw, not YOU, you say) thinks it was all (by all I mean religion in all its forms) conjured up so that no one ever had to think that when you're done, you're done. You're not a special entity. You are matter, and there isn't a higher matter existing within you that gets to go on to keep acting in the great play of life: Scene 2, Take 1.

And this is when my head blew up.

Nah. It all makes sense as a part of human development. If you look at the way faith and religions first began to manifest in things like cremation and stone tombs. Each generation builds on what went before. Religion makes perfect sense in that context.

The correlation between social power and religiosity then makes for some more cynical applications. But even those quite often produced socially useful strictures.

If I *think* about it, then I tend towards being atheist.

If I just follow my feelings, then I tend towards being agnostic. It *feels* right that there would be a God, but of course there is absolutely no evidence of one. That's why it's called faith.

I was raised Catholic, so I got a pretty serious indoctrination. It takes some effort to undo that. My Episcopalian wife is fairly religious, and out of deference to her, we go pretty regularly as a family to church almost every Sunday. My kids like church, and I think it's good for them. They both have a lot of responsibility and have a community there that supports them and genuinely cares about them. They are also being indoctrinated, but I think that's ok because the philosophy being taught is a good one overall.

During the service, there's a part where everyone recites what they believe in. Kind of like kids in school reciting the pledge of allegiance. I cringe during that part, because it sounds like such a load of BS. Some days I mumble along too. Some days I just keep my mouth shut.

At home, we say grace before eating dinner as a family. I also think this is good, because it reminds us that we are fortunate to have food. Some people don't. And we shouldn't take it for granted. Did God give us the food? Not really. I paid for it. But it's just pure dumb luck that I was born into my position in society in an educated family with good role models for being responsible. It's OK to acknowledge that there are some things that are just outside of our control and attribute that to God.

I think the danger there though, is that it is not much of a leap to thinking that we are where we are because that's where God wants us to be. A dangerous lie that sits at the heart of the so-called prosperity gospel.


Being grateful for God for putting food on our tables (in a roundabout way as you suggest) and placing us in a life that allows for happiness and prosperity, carries with it an assumption that God also put those unfortunate people who have less into their positions in life. If we are blessed, then they are cursed. Quite aside from the implied judgement on those who are not blessed, it also risks letting the rest of us (society and government) off the hook for the inequity in our society.


[eta] not suggesting that's what you are teaching your kids of course :p Nowt wrong with a little recognition of one's good fortune as a kid.

I don't define "God" as the bearded man in the sky, and many religious people I know don't either. If anything, my concept of a God is of a more scientific, concept-of-infinity, origin-of-energy-in-the-system kind of thing. God's not remotely human-like, and I don't think he's watching, doing, changing, or caring about us in the sense that we use those words. Kind of a "oneness of the whole" is the farthest I'll go, I guess. Maybe that's more in the realm of Zen, I don't know, I've never felt compelled to study any of it.

When couched in human terms like that, then I can definitely go along with a concept of 'god'...but I think there is a much better name for it. There's nothing wrong with having a 'collective group think'. We are social creatures first after all. But that is not a god in the way humans have created it.

ETA: Ummm, I think I may have distorted your meaning a bit, Clod.

I guess that that pun will be my cross to bear.

I figured you were responding to glatt, not me. But I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm in favor of most any convention that ultimately leads to people helping other people and building a healthy community, even if the stories justifying those conventions are a little silly when you start to examine them.

Martyr

Posted before but seems appropriate here :p

eheh...that was good.

@ Pico: was it the bad vicar one, or the Dawkins one, because I edited and changed the video?

When there is some kind of disaster or tragedy and someone says, "god saved me", there's this implied, "and he killed all those other losers."

Or "you are so beautiful to me" implies "I don't care if everyone else thinks you're a butt ugly slag." :p:

You changed the Dawkins one? Ah man.

Exactly.

I'll re-post it here then :p

See, if I *think* about it, then I have to go in the atheist direction.

But I suppose the religious response to you could be that yes we are blessed, and it's our responsibility to help the less fortunate. We can't help them all, but we can help a little. And we do.

But,but... why hasn't god already blessed them too?

I don't know. It sure looks like he's a jerk though, doesn't it?

I've felt for a long time that religion is 98% social and 2% mental illness.

I like the Neville Brothers version of this song:

Oh my name it means nothing, and my age it means less.
For the country I come from, is called the Midwest.
I was taught and brought up, to the laws to abide.
That the land that I live in,has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it,they tell it so well.
The Cavalries charged,and the Indians fell.
The cavalries charged,and the Indians died.
Oh The Country was young then, with God on its side.

The Spanish-American, War had its day.
And the civil war to us, was soon laid away.
And the names of the heroes, I was made to memorize.
With guns in their hands, and God on their side.

The First World War,it came and it went.
And the reason for fighting,I never did get.
But I learned to accept it, accept it with pride.
For you don't count the dead, when God's on your side.

In the nineteen-sixties,came the Vietnam war.
Can someone tell me, what we were fighting for?
So many young men died, so many mothers cried.
No I ask the question, was God on our side?

I learned to hate the russians, all through my whole life.
If another war comes, it's them must fight.
And to hate them and fear, to run and to hide.
And accept it all bravely, with God on my side.

Through many dark hours, I've been thinkin' bout' this.
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss.
But I can't think for you, you'll have to decide.
Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side.

Now that I'm leaving, I'm weary as hell.
The confusion I"m feeling, ain't no tongue cna tell.
The words fill my head, and they fall to the floor.
That if God's on our side, he'll stop the next war.
Jesus loves me, this I know.

I am somewhere in between what IM and Clodfobble think.

I think that nature is as close to god as I am going to get. I think that there is an energy that causes life, that makes this natural world so beautiful. I think that must be god.

Then I become contrary. On one hand I do not think there is a god personally involved with my life, but If something good to me happens, I do not think I have been separated for special treatment, because thinking that feels weird, and I feel bad for those who are suffering, but all the same, I AM thankful. I wonder about this need to be thankful.

What is the difference between a Buddhist and everyone else?



Nothing

no, that would have made it more wishy-washy. I wanted to know if I was alone in my absolute, positive, arrogant belief that there is no higher spirit whatsoever. I don't care how vague anyone's uncertainty is, I was interested in the certainty. :D

apathy
 

Me: I don't care if 'god' exists or not.


If 'god' exists then I can only (off the top of my head) conclude...

(1) It's 'all powerful' but (for some reason) chooses not to involve itself in the world (I see no evidence of divine intervention in the world...do you?).

Since 'god' is not involved: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who sits back and does nothing but play voyeur (or, maybe, is off doing something else entirely).


(2) It's not 'all powerful' and -- for that reason -- can't do anything in the world.

Since 'god' is limited: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who may want to intervene but is incapable.


(3) It's so alien in the way it thinks (in agenda, goal, purpose, etc.) its action in the world is incomprehensible and indistinguishable from natural occurrence.

Since 'god' is an alien: I'm on my own. Can't see a good reason to spend a lot of time thinking about, or seeking the attention of, a 'god' who is so far removed from me I can't hope to frame an entreaty it could even understand.


(4) It's a tricksy, manipulative, prick playing with the world like my nephew does a June bug.

Since 'god' is a fucker: I'm on my own. Only good reason to spend time thinking about 'god' (in this case) is to figure out how to fly under its radar.


Of course: there may be no 'god'...in which case: I'm on my own...*shrug*

#

"you are so beautiful to me" implies "I don't care if everyone else thinks you're a butt ugly slag."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Is apathetic the same as agnostic? I think they go hand in hand, in your case. You don't know, you don't care.

You've covered the options except for maybe 'god' is a benevolent loving being who really only does these things to us for our good. Yeah, I don't see that either. ;)

I believe god(s) explained things that ancient humans did not understand. Thor makes thunder kind of thing. There are very few things in our obervable environment we can't answer. What were before we were born, what will we be after we die, what created matter/energy, what caused the big bang? gods provide answers to these questions. If that's what gods are, I won't and can't dispute it. But that's the most that god might be, so, in essence, I believe there is no god.

Monster you made the point I was going to make on your behalf.
I know how shy & retiring you can be.
You call a poll Atheists United because you want to know you're not alone.

I'm sometimes quite cross about the feeble flapping of "something out there but I don't need to do anything about it" or the assertion that the deceased "has gone to a better place" even if said person was a nasty piece of work. But this may be a hangover from my Catholic upbringing - I always felt that if people wanted the reassurance of God then they should bloody well work for it. An hour a week isn't too much set against eternity, surely?

I often wonder what true believers think God would have made of things like the Crusades, the annihilation of the Cathars, race riots, bombing of abortion clinics, families starving children because they had the devil in them. Maybe not spewing vitriol against children of God with different coloured skin might help open those pearly gates? I mean you'd think the God that issued Moses the commandment Thou Shalt Not Kill would be pretty cross. But then he wasn't averse to killing in those days either. Even Jesus blasted a fig tree for not havng fruit. I mean I get pretty cross when things are out of stock in Sainsbury's, but I try to refrain from blasting.

Mankind's current favourite Gods are desert dwellars. Vengeful, full of talk about blood and swords and overcoming. Full of miracles than have not happened since. They are xenophobic, clannish and misogynist.

Why did God make a woman? Wasn't he happy with asexual reproduction?
But then he made females for all the other sexual creatures to allow them to be bountiful.
Why wait to give his starring creation a partner? And why make her subservient when some other creatures have a matriarchal society? And why make man - in his image! - so horribly lustful that he is out of control if he glimpses hair, or ankles or face?

If the idea was to populate the earth, why not set some natural boundary? Because the countries that reproduce without any check are full of starving and dying and diseased and mutated babies.

Suffer the little children indeed...
(I do know that suffer also means allow and is used this way in the text quoted. I was raised Catholic after all)
My mind spins.

In this thread I guess I am preaching to the unconverted :)

When God reads this you are going to be in big trouble!!!!

or....
you better hope he doesn't see this till after the rapture.

Like GAWD couldn't google for rapture knockers and atheists.

God is like most people over 70 - they are still using aol and dial-up.
It'll take about that long just for them to get online, let alone use that devil program google.