Limey..........? We're Brassed Off....
 

Thor's baritone he has at home (on loan from the school) is a piece of shit. he's also not very good at taking care of it and we're not very good at reminding him to...... so we decided he should finally clean the damn thing (he's had it at home about two months....:o) ...and the valves and slides are all stuck. the brass coloring is flaking off all over revealing a reddish color and beest suspects this has happened inside the valves and they have corroded. We must assume that they were able to take them apart and clean them sometime during the summer when the instrument was handed in by the last student.

We'd rather not draw the teacher's attention to the fact that it hasn't been cleaned in two months ....do you have any suggestions?

(please and thank you)

.....WD40 is usually our answer to all such problems, beest has found a few discussions suggesting that and no-one saying "oh no no no nonoooooo! but we're still wary in case there are any rubber seals or anything we might not know about.....


/amateurville

You could try a graphite spray.

Beest is skeptical -he thinks that wouldn't help loosen it. Is this from experience?

There are a lot of YouTube videos like this that
Might help:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pQJR2CxeOAc

I'm afraid to click..... (no offence but really ....Sheldon posting a video about lubricating sticky valves and sliders.... :headshake :eek:)

But in reality, we've (read beest, professional engineer) tried a few things (hairdryer etc) and have a few more drastic ones on the list, but we thought seeing as there was an expert on board.....


(isn't youtube a marvelous resource, though? beest and hector used it last month to change the clutch on the washing machine and it's like new now!)

I assume you've tried to take them out and clean them in warm water etc?

You might try immersing the whole thing in warm slightly soapy water. I just re-read your op so assume you just can't get them out at all.

eta: I am no expert, but did play brass and woodwind instruments throughout school so am just trying to remember the things we used to try when we fucked up our instruments. (not that we ever did that of course. haha)

yup, tried heat and wet........ just very afraid of effing up the whole thing b/c replacement cost is way greater than value.....

also tried innertube/swim cap for friction, light tapping with wooden spoon or similar......

No hurry, It plays fine as well as we can tell, but we'll need to fix it at some point....

thanks all, sorry to sound like an ingrate. it's late here and I'm pissed off that I didn't really register that he still hadn't ever cleaned it. I read him and his duet partner the riot act about cleaning their instruments just 10 days ago and the little shit had the nerve to chime in about how important it was when his partner fessed up to rarely cleaning his trumpet. then they went through the motions of doing that. grr...

I assume you've tried to pry the valves out using a kitchen knife or something similar? Chances are they're just gummed up with left over saliva etc. If the actual instrument is corroding, there's not a lot you can do about it from home though. Maybe it's just dying?

Hopefully Limey will have some more helpful advice. To me it seems you've tried most of the likely home cures.

oh it's way past dead. it's the original Zombie baritone. he has a better one that he keeps at school to play in band class, this is a spare they let him have for practice. but his teacher is all about fleecing parents for 'repairs'. last year, she tried to charge us for a dodgy trumpet valve that we'd been complaining about all year til we offered video proof it had always been like that

Hi, sorry, I was asleep/working/playing a brass instrument ... I'm back now. Sounds like you've tried it all. You should see the shit state-of-repair of instruments Mr Limey is sent to teach on :eek:
Leave it in a bath of warm water and dishwashing soap for a good few hours, like Ali says, but it seems you've done that. If the school is going to fleece you for repairs/a new instrument it might be worth seeking out a repair shop and paying them to do it (they have Ways©), which'd probably work out cheaper.

A lot of the advice I found on the internet said hitting the valve caps with a hide mallet is the magic trick, a wooden spoon was a home alternative, i haven't tried that yet, I'm very reluctant to go bashing it.

Another suggestion was a jar opener, a mini strap wrench, this looks like a fairly safe option. I couldn't find my scrap bycicle inner tube last night to try that or go buy one somewhere.

Haven't really tried soaking the whole thing in the bath

Ali - the valves aren't stuck, it's the caps that you unscrew to even get to the valves.

Thanks to all, will keep trying.

Yup - mini strap wrench is good (friends report success with rubber gloves, too!). Give the thing a soak for an hour or two, that won't hurt it at all. I'd not bash it with anything, leave that to the professionals.

thanks :) bashing it is a frightening idea, we've heard how much dent removal costs....


see, beest, I said rubber gloves....


so no to WD40 then?

No to WD40. A music repair shop should charge perhaps up to $100 to sort it for you. They may say it's not worth it, but you can say you're conscientious parents trying to return school property in good nick (or dodge a punitive charge).

Sent by thought transference

I tried rubber gloves, mini strap wrench is definitely worth picking up, I knew I needed to go to harbor freight for something.

it's serious bath time for the baritone...... how'd you think it'd feel about a dip in the pool? Chlorine's a cleaning product, right? ;)

thanks all :)




muttermutterlazyboysandinattentiveparentsmuttermutter

Last resort, make it disappear and call your insurance company. :lol2:

Fraud! I mean FORD! Did you see that Ford???!

It's only fraud if you break the 11th or 12th Commandments
*
(What? You didn't know about those? Why yes, for sure, Moses actually came down the mountain with three tablets (iPad, Android and WindowsRT) but dropped the Microsoft one which had Commandments #11 - #15 on it which is why 99.9% of the population only know the first Ten Commandments.
*
11th Commandment:
Thou Shalt Not Get Caught
*
12th Commandment:
Thou Shalt Not Get Found Out
*
So basically, and with God's full approval obviously, it's like speeding, unless Smokey (US) or Plod (UK) pulls you over and gives you a ticket for doing it, it never happened.
*
Here endeth the first lesson.

Oh, unless you actually hit someone on a zebra crossing. Or put a child in hospital.
And no, that's not Daily Maily speak. I was hit on a zebra crossing and my nephew-by-marriage also hit when crossing the road. We both got away with soft tissue damage because the drivers weren't speeding.

So a bad choice of analogy on my part.
Note how restrained I am being in not bringing any sort of abuse into the discussion :rolleyes:

yes, no, what I was meaning is that getting caught for speeding alone is fantastically difficult, and officially unless you got caught (by police) or found out (speed cameras) then there's no record of you speeding so officially you didn't.
road traffic collisions or any other incidents are not "speeding" even if speeding was a factor in that other incident.

likewise unless someone can catch a fraudster or find one out after investigation (or one of us grasses the offender up) then there is no record of fraud so officially it didn't occur.
(yet!)

and I do appreciate the lack of abuse, thank you.

You know what?
I did read that completely wrong.
I thought you were saying that speeding was fine as long as you weren't caught.

And apart from being hard of understanding, I do admit it's one of my buttons.
Please accept a genuine apology.

If the hot bath doesn't work, I'd personally try WD40 or even PB Blaster. I know they both tend to break down rubber seals, etc., but if you can get it apart, you can clean the innards off afterwards.

are we not straying off the point?
(EDIT: yes mea culpa for going off-topic, don't tell me I already know and apologise.)

the objective is to return it so that it passes an inspection at school.

the objective is not necessarily that we return it in good condition, only that it passes the test of perception of good order for one day only and that is the day the youngster hands it back and the parent gets a receipt for an instrument returned in good order.

the effect of this is that for all we care the bloody thing can turn to dust over the school holiday, it was in the school's care then, so if it happens it's their fuck up.

WD40 may for all I know dissolve the rubber (never heard of that but I'll take it on trust) but it'll take months to do it, so any deterioration will not be noticeable in just a couple of weeks.

my plan of campaign would be, not nore than a week or two before handing it back, to to strip it with WD40, then wash in soapy water a couple of times, then rinse a few times, then reassemble and go over the outer metalwork with the recommended metal polish.
the polish will cover up any residual smell of WD40.

job done, box ticked.

No, we'd actually like it clean and not to seize up before the big duet next month, but we want to get it done without asking teacher for help/revealing the neglect ;)

gotcha, hadn't picked up on the "needing it for the duet" bit.

what about methylated or surgical spirit (or whatever denatured non-potable undiluted alcohol is called in your country)?
alcohol to dissolve the organics from spit and sweat that are clogging stuff up, plus is miscible with water to rinse away fully and easily.

There is the small point, Molasar, that in the UK (and I doubt the US is any different) the school/education authority doesn't have a budget to service. overhaul or even inspect instruments between pupils and it'd be nice if the instrument were playable for the next user ... [/rant] :tuba:

good point well made limey.

in that case my useful contribution is #33 and you can forget anything before that.

there is also the counter argument which is that the lack of budget is made up for by the punitive fines levied.
so, if there's no need to spend on repairs then it doesn't matter there's no budget, and if there is need for repairs then the income from fines covers it.
no need for a budget either way !

unless anyone knows what the effect of alcohol is on the artificial/natural rubbers used as seals
?

and now I feel even guiltier :( Even though we would never return it in worse condition than we got it if humanly possible

despair not, unless someone has given you a right answer then start at Defcon-5 warm soapy water and then escalate through the other answers to Defcon-1 WD40 if the previous stage didn't work.

my son used to have a school trumpet, I'll ask him tonight if he has any answers and post them if he has.

As far as I am aware the instrument is in at least as good condition as when we recieved it, which is to say visually awful it's obviously the nasty one they lend out last, it's perfectly playable.

This is the first time he has tried to clean it, so these bits may have been stuck when we received it.
Do they they tear them down and inspect them between users, don't know.
I don't know anything about brass instruments, but something about corrosion, I don't think it got so bad in time we have had it, it's not just one, 5 of 6 valve caps and 2 of 6 (?) slides are stuck.

I'd prefer to be supportative of the schools budget and unstick and clean them and return it in better condition than when we got it.

Are there even any rubber seals in Brass instrumnet, I suspect not, brass instruments have been around longer than rubber, but they may have traditionally used leather or other materials?

I've tried WD40, and an improvised strap wrench with bicycle inner tub, no luck.

I'll get my hands on a proper strap wrench, plus bath time.

have you tried heating the metal? not a torch, but maybe a heat gun? the expansion may be enough to loosen the caps

When trying to loosen the stuck tuning slide of my daughter's trombone, I just held it under scalding running water. That loosened it up enough to wiggle it off, and I saw that there was lots of green corrosion that had been locking it solid. I used a scotch brite pad to clean off that corrosion, and then applied the special grease.

Anyway, the point is that hot water did wonders.

a hair dryer would do the same as hot water and avoid water adding to corrosion?

...read back :rolleyes:

Limey..........? We're Brassed Off....
 

Beest, there are rubber or plastic seals inside. What you'll find inside are felt washers (left), springs and rubber washers (right).Attachment 46617. As well as the pistons. MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT MIX UP THE PISTONS when you take them out. They are likely not numbered and are NOT identical, but easy to mix up. Follow best practice as in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.


Sent by thought transference

Thanks, good to know, won't go spraying WD40 in there willy nilly.

Limey..........? We're Brassed Off....
 

You can buy replacement kits. That's what this photo is of, for my tuba. Cost around £25.


Sent by thought transference

Hector, you man now.

*snort* poor lamb still 5foot 80lb but now a headliner for the Varsity Hockey team :) ("Freshman Goaltender saves the day....") It's a bewildering age....

HURRAH!
 

After seveal hot, dish-soapy baths and a little brute force, all slides and valves are free! :D

Thanks, Ali, Limey et al.

(It's clear this was not properly clean when we inherited it :::eeewwww:::: but it darn well will be when we return it. Watch them decide to scrap it! :lol:)

Congratulations on beating the odds. :thumb:

Sweet!

Well done! (that reminds me, I was meant to bath my tuba today ...) :tuba:

Do you ever take a bubble bath with your tuba?

In your dreams, Sarge! ;)

Sent by thought transference

yet to put the fucker back together......

Now we've lost the trumpet snake. :eek:

but at least we have the snake oil.

The trumpet snake? Is that what you kids are calling it these days?

Excellent!

A little TLC will keep it going for a few more years. It's probably better now (or at least once you reassemble it) than it has been in a year or two.

Just remember, when you put it all back together, there shouldn't be any pieces left over...

I can tell you now that a tuba full of water weighs a LOT.


Sent by thought transference

... Into which we don't pass solids.

now you tell me.......


we are now the proud owners of a baritone snake. :eek: Notes have been played, the first practice is just starting...... can you hear it? :lol: