American Protestor killed in Gaza
 

You've probably read or heard the news, but here's the gist of it:

23 year old American Rachel Corrie was protesting the demolition of a home in the Gaza strip. The demolition was, apparently, because Israel is creating a buffer zone (in other words, not because the home owner, who is a doctor, is a militant).

She's standing in front of the house and the bulldozer runs her over. She has, apparently, been there for some three hours, so it's not as if they didn't know she was there. You can read descriptions of it elsewhere.

Because I think it's important to remember these things, I've saved a picture of her, but it wouldn't be right to mislead you. It's not just a picture of her; it's a picture of her crushed head.

Here is a link to the picture.

I've noticed a rather calm reaction to her death. One wrote, and I agree, that if she had been killed by Iraqi soldiers, we would be at war already. Yet she was killed by an Israeli bulldozer, and while we've demanded a "full investigation" into the incident - whatever that means - we are not nearly as heated in this issue as we most certainly would be if the perpetrator were Iraqi.

What do you all think?

Here's a shot of here while she was alive.

http://cellar.org/2003/rachelcorrie.jpg

I read about her on foxnews.com this morning, as well as on another news site (reuters perhaps? )

Anyway, what drew me to the story was the headline describing her as a "martyr" ... I initially wondered if she had put on a set of DuPont undies and blew something up ... then I realized that "martyr" is SOOO much nicer to say about someone than "fatally clumsy".

No matter how she actually died, it's a shame, shouldn't have happened, etc. etc. ... but she's the one that was fucking around in front of the bulldozer. I can't bring myself to 1) care or 2) see what statement against the war (or any war) that she really made in death.

I knew someone who'd gone to the middle east on one fo these "peace witness" missions. Stupid, IMHO, but I suppose it has just that much more cachet than spending the same money to go as a plain old tourist to somewhere ...

If folks are going to do crap like that, why don't they try "peace witnessing" in a crack neighborhood near home?

Re: American Protestor killed in Gaza
 

I'm a bad human being, but my first thought upon reading this was a brief Hitchhiker's Guide flashback.

PROSSER: Mr. Dent, have you any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if I just let it roll straight over you?

ARTHUR: How much?

PROSSER: None at all.

Yes, I'm ill.

Well, she wasn't trying to send a message or make a statement BY DYING. That's sort of the point here, that the driver was either careless enough or callous enough to run her over. Whether the intent was there on the part of the driver is something I can't answer.

I doubt she meant to die, it did have the effect of bringing the issue back into the news here though which can only be a good thing. My guess? they'll scapegoat the driver and keep running over ordinary palastinians instead.

Re: American Protestor killed in Gaza
 

If you feel the need to risk your life to bring light to some event, be prepared to lose it.

As heartless as you may consider this, I would have run her over too. If you are bold enough to stand in front of the bulldozer, I am bold enough to run you over with it. Bulldozers are not quick moving vehicles, you have time to run away. If you insist on doing something you know will injure or kill you, you are foolish or totally committed.

If you are foolish, too bad. If you are committed, I will run you over "with respect" (if there is such a thing) but someone or many someones will not stop the event by standing in the way. If this type of action is effective, nothing will ever happen. Some asshat will be putting themself in the way of the action every day.

It's rather sad that it takes an American dying in this way for us to feel like it matters. I guess if a Palestinian dies in this way, who cares, right?

I can't believe that none of you assign any blame in this case to Israel. Or did I just misread you? Let's clarify: Do you think it's okay for Israel to just run over people with bulldozers? Are they justified? Does it make them evil?

Jeez, is that what happened? An entire country ran somebody over with a bulldozer? Just ran her over for no purpose?

I would be against that.

Re: Re: American Protestor killed in Gaza
 

I think the people who use this technique are gambling on the driver's ethics. They assume that life is more precious than land. Perhaps they also assume the country has laws that enact a hefty punishment on those who take life. It appears this woman was wrong on both parts.

Dammit! I hate it when I mess up. :)

I blame Israel, however, anyone who is in the least aware of world situations knows that *you do not fuck with Israel*. They *will* run you over with a bulldozer, blow up your house, shoot rockets from helicopters into your compound, etc. They simply do not care who happens to be in the path of the bulldozer/bomb/rockets, because, in their minds, it is Israel or everyone else, and they have chosen Israel.

Israel doesn't back down, they don't apologize, and they pretty much put out an "our way or death" attitude. I think the woman's death is tragic, but it is tragically stupid.

Whether I agree or disagree with Israel is immaterial, because if I get in the way of what they decide to do, I'm gonna die. I know this, but apparently the young woman either overlooked that fact or failed to allow the knowledge to stay her from martyrdom.

The world is a fucked up place these days. I hope it gets better.

They probably also assumed their own nation would do more than just bend over.

Not only that El, but she sympathized with and perhaps even embraced a culture that celebrates martyrdom.

To truly mourn her may be disrespectful to her own wishes.

While I applaud those that seek to fight oppression non-violently, anyone who gets involved in that sort of thing should be well-aware of the risks involved. One needs only to look to MLK or Gandhi for evidence.

Having said that, if it is shown that the operator of the bulldozer acted with careless disregard, then he/she should most certainly be punished.

Unfortunately, I think our close relationship with Israel could interfere with any justice due. To me, it's like the American pilot that killed the Canadians...I don't think anything serious or severe will come out of either case.

If you mean that the USA kowtows to Israel, I'd have to pretty much agree. I've always wondered why that is.

I'd like to apologize in advance for my insensitivity and ignorance in this matter.

The God's honest truth is , I dont really give a fuck about Pals or Jews outside this country. ( Until and unless they disrupt my American lifestyle, then I want them *all* dead) Once any race or group is here in the US (legally), I pay attention. I may like them or not, that doesn't matter, they are Americans. There isn't one single minority I don't disagree strongly with on some point. There also isn't one single minority (group) that doesn't bring something here that I like or agree with.

Ok. So back to the question. Do you think it's okay for Israel to just run over people with bulldozers? I think that they have so many people that hated the Jews even *before* they even had Israel, that they cannot afford to be flexible. If they run some Pal or US girl down with a dozer the world hates them. If they wake up in the morning millions of people are going to hate them, so if I were them I'd say fuck it. This is the way it shall be through our might.

I have had the chance to talk to both Israelis and Palastinians in the US while they were working here. Again I say I really don't give a fuck but if I had to choose a side it would be the Israelis. They also make some of the finest battle proven rifles and pistols which earns them bonus points with me.

It's funny that these 2 seem to be able to get along here while working. Maybe we should just clear out Utah and bring them all here. The American way has a way of allowing people to work together so they can *all* afford good beer, cable TV, the new sexy cars, and a good college education for the kids.

The question isn't really about Israel vs. Palestine or however you want to frame it. The question is, a girl not much older than myself got (what appears to be) knowingly run over by a bulldozer - twice - and killed.

Of course there is some danger to what she was doing (obviously, or she wouldn't have been killed). Normally, however, peaceful public protest is not dealt with via lethal force.

For those of you who were in your late teens or early twenties in 1970: how did you feel about Kent State?

How do you like the idea that you could be killed for a peaceful protest?

If this happened in the United States, everyone would throw a shit fit. Everyone would be up in arms, demanding that the person or persons responsible be brought to justice.

But it wouldn't happen here. At the very most, she would have been arrested for interfering with government business and forcibly removed from the premesis.

Nah. They ran her over with a fucking bulldozer.

Whether or not Israel has to be on the defensive most of the time is irrelevant. What happened was wrong. The person or persons responsible (it is standard Israeli practice to drive the bulldozer at least up to the protestors, sometimes swerving away at the last moment) need to be brought to justice, and the government has to issue something a little better than "the protestors were acting irresponsibly."

That won't happen because no one gives a shit.

The thing is Israel didn't run anyone over oops Toad said that already. An individual human being drove the dozer. I'm sure it was an intense situation where bad decisions are made quickly but you can't just check your humanity when you punch the clock. The scarey part to me is that folks can get comfortable ordering, participating, and justifying acts like this in the name of security. This could be our future.

Is anybody else here thinking about that scene from Soylent Green?

And didn't the article indicate that she may have fallen down in front of the dozer? From the Fox News version:

"She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said."

CNN's version:
"Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her. "

The other witness version of the story indicates that the bulldozer operator knocked her down and THEN rolled over her. What is not clear is if the bulldozer driver had any awareness that she was in front of the damn thing. Visibility is quite limited on a big dozer.

I'm sure he knew she was there. She was there for some three hours before and had previously been talking to the driver. Before it knocked her over, as it lifted her up, witnesses said it was very clear that she made eye contact with the driver.

The most consistent reports that I have read have her being scooped up by the bulldozer, being dumped on the ground and then being run over.

The accident accounts would tend to reinforce my thinking that it was just plain stupid to be jerking off doing *anything* in that area. If you want to protest, protest from across the street where you stand a good chance of outrunning even a maniacal, homicidal bulldozer driver.

Screwing around in the vicinity of a multiton piece of earthmoving equipment is just tempting the laws of physics to prove themselves.

A similar event did happen in the US about a decade ago. A protester sat on train tracks in front of a train, I think an industrial train supporting a company building war stuff. And the guy refused to move. And trains can't just stop, which the guy probably didn't understand. So when the train did eventually reach the dude it just ran over his legs, cutting them off.

The progressive community was really pissed when the train driver sued the legless protester.

Ignorance of the laws of physics is no excuse.

Nuclear power plant protest, if memory serves.

I don't think she was ignorant of the laws of physics, I think she simply flouted them and was duly ticketed.

In many cases, the penalty for violating the laws of physics is death, and there is no more dispassionate court than that of the universe.

Someone on LGF said:

Rage against the machine!

Rage 0
Machine 1


That may be a bit too cold even for my taste.

The other thing is that unfortunately you have to pretty much discount anything the witnesses say.

LGF points to this page with photos:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml

The third photo on that page shows the woman shouting at a bulldozer with a megaphone. The shadows thrown by the dozer in question are from behind it. The shadow thrown by Ms. Corrie is three feet long and suggests a sun to her right, while her buddy throws no shadow at all.

Note how the dozers in images 4 and 5 are different ones, but placed so that you feel it's a "before" and "after".

I feel bad about a death, but bulldozers go 5 MPH. This woman wanted to die.

No offense, but I don't think you're qualified to say whether or not she wanted to die.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that she wanted to stand her ground, ended up getting trapped under a bunch of shit and couldn't get away. Incidentally, I think that's far more likely.

It would be a little different if she jumped under the tracks or wheels and hadn't been there for three hours.

And I still don't see anything wrong with nonviolent protest.

<delurk>

This is a bit of a bugbear of mine; idiots who manage, by virtue of being stupid enough to get dead, to become martyrs of a sort.

As well as the "flouted the laws of physics and was duly ticketed" (kudos Elspode - VERY funny) guy, there were a bunch of Greenpeace people who handcuffed themselves to bits of an oil rig due to be sunk not so very long ago.

I'm all in favour, somewhere in my mind, of the right to protest - but I'm completely anti the right to impede me in my day-to-day "minding my own business" going about of life.

I used to have the [good~/mis~] fortune to live in London; my daily commute was a nightmare every time anyone decided they wanted to protest globalisation, taxation, traffic, oxygen, or any of the other myriad of things that they chose to parade up and down the road chanting about. A particular favourite was foreign residents coming over to protest (I couldn't give a damn what nationality they are - if they don't pay tax here, they shouldn't be entitled to get in the way of people who do).

This woman was very clearly in the way of the - very specific, individual - guy bulldozing, and had gone out of her way to be in. The guy bulldozing wasn't going out of his way to make her life difficult, in particular.

I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling my desire to simply run over the protesters currently marching around waving banners protesting the war in Iraq in the middle of the road, with my desire to let them use their democratic right to make themselves heard - I sure as hell wouldn't listen to 99.999999% of protests if they didn't force it upon me by standing right in my way.

Hypocrisy makes my head hurt.

Kev

PS - Hi, everyone!

Sounds like today's protestors are as beloved as telemarketers or street mimes. Our defenses are up. As in all attempts at idea marketing, maybe these messagers need more creative campaigns. - remember the Columbian who buried himself?- that got me curious.

I dont like seeing anyone's skull crushed, regardless of ideology.
I respect nonviolent protest and think its an essential part of democracy.

Gandhi's tip was "to make the injustice visable" then you can touch the conscience- photograpy and the media are essential. It seems this protestor's images are not passive enough to touch us. Not like Tiananmin square or a monk on fire.

I met a guy recently who participated in the lunch counter sit-ins in the 60s. He talked about his training and the stress on nonviolent reaction.it was practiced. If one picture was snapped of a black student yelling, in anyway fighting back or even looking angry as they were being yelled at or beaten, the action would be ruined. Anyone looking at the image would feel they deserved it. And early on SNCC hired their own photographer Danny Lyon, to cover actions.

Dave, you mentioned Kent, I went there (80s) and remember going on the orientation tour. In our group were a few students from Asia. As the guide showed us around, noting the commons where the National Guard opened fire on the students killing 4 and wounding 9, not only those protesting, but those passing to class, I remember the foreign students' repectful but confused reaction. "So only 4 were killed?" Like "that's nothin'". That was an early lesson in relativism.

Welcome, Kev!

I have the current good fortune to live and work in the suburbs, and for the most part not to be troubled by protests, actions, or even moderately sized groups of people milling around for any reason (although I have, on occasion, driven past the abortion clinic on protest days, but the police appear to have made it very clear that the protest is not allowed to spill out onto the roadway and bother anyone else, except for the predictable gaper-block, which is usually less messy than the regular evening traffic pattern).

I'm not really big on protesting in general. Doesn't seem to accomplish much. Last one I was actually present for was in college (entirely too long ago) and that was a "food fight to protest how bad the cafeteria food was". I only went to watch. The caf was packed, and to this day I wish I had a picture of the campus police who were in full riot gear ... one had creamed corn running down his face shield. Priceless. The food, however, continued to suck for my remaining four years.

http://free.freespeech.org/americans...helCorrie.html

Amazing the tendency to blame the victim. I seriously doubt this young girl was suicidal for her cause. Bursting with righteous indignation stemming from youthful idealism, yes.

As with all contemporary thought, Isreali/American/British relations are worth questioning. Anti-Zionist is not equivelant to anti-Jew, although the ADL would certainly disagree and does so quite frequently. As for why we are so deeply involved with the Zionist's, I'll leave that up to inquiring minds to draw their own conclusions.

I certainly do blame the victim in this case. She made a number of choices that I know, if I were to make them, I would be placing my life in danger.

I'm very safe, sitting here in my comfy home. What choices do I make?

If I were to travel to the middle east, I would assume that I was increasing my chance of death by about double. Still a pretty low rate.

If I were to engage in Palestinian street protests, knowing that the non-government of the area summarily executes people without any trial for being suspected of helping the enemy, I would assume that I was increasing my chance of death by about 100 times.

If I were to become part of an organization that celebrates thuggery by helping to hide the thugs: another 100 times.

If I were to walk around a construction site in the US: around 50 times.

If I were to walk around a construction site I was unfamiliar with in another country: about 100 times.

Tw posted a story about a year ago, about a friend of his who was killed accidentally at a construction site. THAT is a tragedy. I was terribly saddened by it, because although the gentleman in question had chosen to work in construction, he had made many choices to increase his safety and nevertheless died in a freak accident.

This broad made her own choices. I find them to be ridiculously stupid and dangerous. I'm not surprised she's gone. My biggest outrage is how people like yourself try to spin this nine different ways. You're so certain of the facts that you *know* she was *murdered*.

What do you really know? Here's a hint. Look at the shots on your page sold to us as the "before" and "after":

BEFORE
http://cellar.org/2003/dozer1.jpg
AFTER
http://cellar.org/2003/dozer2.jpg

Look at the lights on top of the dozer. Look at the blade. These are two different bulldozers.

So what happened? You don't know, yet you're so convinced that you know the truth that you're crying at the top of your voice.

Did you actually bother to read the eyewitness accounts or were you simply all too eager to share your theory? I'm not disputing your observation regarding the bulldozer but your logic that this discredits the story is flawed and a straw man argument. The story never claims these are sequential images but rather points out that she was visible to the drivers of the bulldozer being that she was wearing a bright orange safety jacket and carrying a bullhorn.

I never said I agreed with her actions but I definately admire her determination and will. I never criticized your post, why do you attack mine when all I did was provide information for people to determine the facts for themselves? I thought it a pity that people might form a decision based on this scant thread.

The fact is, the girl was young with a life ahead of her. Someone in a bulldozer had enough hate within them to destroy her life. That kind of hatred is foreign to me. Before you call it an accident you should read the account.

I also fail to understand your hostility towards me or this dead girl. Perhaps it is the very fact that you are "sitting comfy in your safe home" in inaction that you attempt to justify her murder. You say that I am so sure of the facts in the case but my understanding of the facts comes from reading depositions taken from eyewitnesses which I was attempting to share here. Your view is based on flawed logic and an apparent disdain of idealists.

Even if I were wrong and it was an accident, is it still not a tragedy? Does she not deserve some respect?

As for my "crying at the top of your voice", that hardly is a fair characterization of my post. I feel for the loss of life and potential. I think it a pity she died acting against futility but I also think its a crime she was killed out of hatred and with impunity.

-Cf

And perhaps she felt that she was not wasting it ...

I think she was a fool, but, that's my opinion. It's also my opinion that folks who do that kind of thing should check their American Citizenship at the door. Yah, it's not quite like she formally signed up to fight under a foreign flag, but it's close enough, IMHO. You don't like America or what America's doing? You are welcome to leave. Good luck finding any other nation willing to take you, however.

I acknowledge this incident as a tragedy in every way, but there is no reasonable way that this woman could have been run over if she'd been trying to get out of the way. If she stood her ground, it was an intentional self-sacrifice. If she stumbled and fell and was run over, it was a horrible accident based on the fact that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was still her choice to be there.

Now, if the guy in the bulldozer drove insanely after her and ran her down despite her best efforts to escape, it is murder. However, it would have to have been the most high-performance bulldozer in the world to accomplish this, perhaps one of those special drag-racing bulldozers I've heard so much about.

I reiterate my original statement about this...don't fuck with the Israelis, they'll take you out and not look back. They feel it is a means to their own survival. Ask the Palestinians who blow themselves up every other day to kill Israelis...betcha they feel the same way.

It all sucks, and either the girl willingly sacrificed herself or was just plain stupid or unlucky. Murder on the part of the bulldozer driver is simply not a reasonable conclusion.

Perhaps it is the very fact that you are "sitting comfy in your safe home" in inaction that you attempt to justify her murder.

Perhaps, but I find it hard to make that connection. Could you expand? Tks.

I'd like to hear that explained, too...are we to assume that if UT was somewhere less comfy than his home he would view what happened to the woman as murder?

I suppose that point of view is dependant on circumstances to some extent, but I'm not sure that if UT was a protesting college student or a third-world peasant he'd see what happened to her as homicide. And even if he did, that would not necessarily make it so.

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I had no choice once I saw this.

http://cellar.org/2003/duke-corrie.jpg

It doesn't say anything about justice or injustice. It doesn't change the death at all. It doesn't give meaning to it.

It's just interesting to see little parts of the US far left holding ideological hands with little parts of the US far right.

The word "martyr" is so dirty now, I shudder to think it's used to describe her.

The difficulty with trying to sell me an idea like this one is that an active antizionist who is also anything like pro-Jew is a creature altogether outside of my experience. I mean it -- every last single solitary one I've ever met was a bigot and easily exposed as such.

I find myself wondering if Ms. Corrie would be horrified to find herself lauded on David Duke's website ...

Probably, but you never know ...

Should say - attempt to understand her suicide

It's getting better now they shot one who was wearing a large fluro orange vest helping a woman and child to safety in the head. Of course that was the protesters fault too.

With your view of the world i'm not too shocked, hell i know jews who are anti-zionist. Of course they're clearly anti-jewish bigots too.

[quote]helping a woman and child to safety in the head. /QUOTE]

They use the restrooms for shelters?

I'm sorry Jag. I couldn't help myself.:D

Quote:

Though anti-war and pro-Palestinian activists have called the 23-year-old American peace activist's death "murder," accusing the Israeli government of deliberately killing her, eyewitnesses sympathetic to Corrie later admitted that it was an accident, brought on by her attempt to jump on to the approaching bulldozer.

Found this as I was reading an article on the recent suicide bombing.

Told yah so ... victim of her own stupidity.

And other people said other things. We're each going to believe what we want to believe. Hardly warrants a "Told yah so", because the fact of the matter is that neither you or I will ever know exactly what happened there.