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-   -   I confess! Confessions and admission of horrible things you have done! (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=30392)

chrisinhouston 09-08-2014 11:05 AM

I confess! Confessions and admission of horrible things you have done!
 
When I was 13 or so I lied to one of the priests at our church. I told him I was thinking of becoming a priest which I really wasn't I think I was just trying to make some kind of connection with him. He told me I should pray about that and study my catechism. I also began to make up sins when I went to confession because I really never had much to say.

Am I doomed to languish in Hell for eternity? :eek:

Lola Bunny 09-08-2014 03:49 PM

Make up sins just to confess??!? Hahaha.....Did you eventually confess to that too?

infinite monkey 09-08-2014 08:37 PM

I didn't do my homework.

I got mad at my mom, and sassed her.

I killed hobos.

These are the things I told my priest. Then I said 10 hail marys and 10 our fathers and everyone forgot about the hobos.

Undertoad 09-08-2014 09:50 PM

I can't confess the horrible things I have done. They are too horrible. Although nobody has ever died, or even suffered, or been changed in any much way, or even spent time in anguish,....



....no

Crimson Ghost 09-08-2014 11:05 PM

"Father, I once poked a badger with a spoon."

xoxoxoBruce 09-09-2014 03:26 AM

Quote:

I confess! Confessions and admission of horrible things you have done!
Only after the statute of limitations had run out. :fingerx:

Sundae 09-09-2014 06:16 AM

I have used family crisis as a way of getting out of a number of things: dates; overtime; actual workdays; rental agreements.
I didn't really feel bad about it at the time, but now Dads is genuinely in such bad health I feel a twinge at all the times I pretended.
Actually once it was Mum, because I needed Dad to come and collect me and load up the car.
Calculating much?

Gravdigr 09-09-2014 05:48 PM

I cuntpunched a nun.

chrisinhouston 09-09-2014 10:29 PM

A few years ago when Continental and United were rumored to be working on a merger I had stopped in at Continental's President's Club before a flight and was having a glass of wine and the bartender mentioned that if the merger went through he had been told that United would be changing out all the bar ware with new stuff. Well they served the wine at the bar in Spiegelau stemware which my wife and I also had at home. Very nice glassware, a lot like Riedel.

So for about the next 6 months every time we had a drink at the club while traveling we would just stick our nice glasses in a large carry on bag as we walked out and eventually get them home. Ended up with 8 I think.

Also, I took a lot of the silverware and use it for camping and picnics. I don't care, I hate the new United! :mad:

Aliantha 09-09-2014 10:42 PM

A bar i used to drink at used to have nice glassware. I admit to stealing a few from time to time. I used to justify it to myself by the fact that i was never one to smash glasses at the pub.

it 09-13-2015 02:04 AM

Do the confessions have to be acts? Well this is the closest thread I was able to find, so...

I love Nazi aesthetics. In Israel we have a holocaust memorial day, where all the media gets pretty holocaust-themed, especially at schools, and for as long as I remember my prevailing thought watching those old WW2 horror flicks was...

Look how cool those uniforms are! And even the swastika, and red and black make for such a beautiful combination. Don't get me wrong - The ideology is bullshit, the politics were fucked up, their actions were horrible and their intentions were worst, but god damn it they had a better sense of design then any modern army.


...I am a horrible Jew.

Sundae 09-13-2015 06:17 AM

I got £10 change from a £5 note a couple of weeks back.
I knew as soon as he handed it over that it was wrong, because I know I only had a fiver.
He was talking to a "regular" also in the shop, but he is an independent newsagent, an older man, and has always been perfectly polite and welcoming.

I visit him about twice a month (when I have money!) for the occasional soft drink, chocolate bar. He's open earlier than the supermarkets.
He didn't deserve my dishonesty.

footfootfoot 09-13-2015 09:05 PM

I used to like to steal coffee cups from weddings I'd been to, mostly because I was drunk.

I don't really have any confessions because I'm pretty open about my past, and my present is nothing to write home about.

Maybe I'll go eat sushi and not pay...

xoxoxoBruce 09-13-2015 09:38 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I'm not talking till the statute of limitations is bye bye. :unsure:
I don't want to meet the limiting statue.

it 09-14-2015 12:21 AM

I am not talking either...

Until someone else brings something more heavy weight. I have shit I am actually remorseful about and people are talking about the time they stole from the cookie jar. I want to first see if there are other people in on that so it doesn't kill the thread and turn it into something that might otherwise be completely unrelatable to the community.

Happy Monkey 09-14-2015 06:53 PM

When I was a kid I "salvaged" a toy that was leaning against a trash can... I've since wondered whether a kid had just left it there, and I actually stole it.

Clodfobble 09-14-2015 09:10 PM

I once kind of date-raped a guy.

I mean, obviously it's not like there was physical force, or even a direct "no" on his part. But he expressed uneasiness, and if the genders were switched I think a lot of people would be uncomfortable with it. And of course at the time I would never, ever have assessed the situation in that way. I was buying into the typical model that says of course guys always want to have sex, so his uneasiness must mean there was something wrong with me, and I should therefore try harder to fix it. I was honestly trying really hard to do the right thing.

It's only in recent years that I've thought back on it and really realized how terrified and uncomfortable he was. I wish I hadn't done it.

Gravdigr 09-15-2015 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 939044)
I wish I hadn't done it.

I guarantee you, he does not feel that way.

Unless you were reeeeeally ugly as a teenager, which I doubt.

:p:

lumberjim 09-15-2015 02:06 PM

I peed on Paul Bidez

he was sitting with his back to me with his shirt off, and I peed right on his back on purpose.


he had it coming. I'm not sorry

Clodfobble 09-15-2015 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravdigr
I guarantee you, he does not feel that way.

I am pretty sure he does. Our relationship lasted over a year, and during that whole time we successfully had sex maybe 6 times, and unsuccessfully attempted maybe another dozen. It was an issue we mostly just refused to address. At one point I gently suggested he might be gay, and he pretty vehemently disagreed, and for what it's worth he has since continued dating women to the best of my knowledge. But the girl he dated right after me was still in high school (16 to his 22? 23?) and I am 99% sure they were just holding hands and chastely kissing.

sexobon 09-15-2015 07:04 PM

Think maybe he was saving himself for marriage and you stole his virginity?

Undertoad 09-15-2015 07:10 PM

A M2F TS friend had a girlfriend for five years before switching teams. She told me that they had done the compleat deed five times. Average one per year.

lumberjim 09-16-2015 12:34 AM

Fag

it 09-16-2015 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 939134)
I am pretty sure he does. Our relationship lasted over a year, and during that whole time we successfully had sex maybe 6 times, and unsuccessfully attempted maybe another dozen. It was an issue we mostly just refused to address. At one point I gently suggested he might be gay, and he pretty vehemently disagreed, and for what it's worth he has since continued dating women to the best of my knowledge. But the girl he dated right after me was still in high school (16 to his 22? 23?) and I am 99% sure they were just holding hands and chastely kissing.

That's more or less to be expected - sociologically there's a very limited tool set available to him in terms of understanding what he himself is going through.

For what it's worth, I consider it of a lot more merit that you are able to admit to yourself what happened and see it from a negative light and implications that are less then comfortable. IME the only people who can be trusted to avoid hurting those around them and people they care about are the people who can acknowledge when they hurt others in the first place, and that's something you can't take for granted. My 2 cents.

it 09-16-2015 04:21 AM

In the 2nd Lebanon war they gave us (artillery) the order to secure a large parameter. This in itself was part of the news scandal later of horrible judgement among the generals when the war was investigated.

At one point there was a blue van - if they heard the speakers telling them to stop and identify themselves, they didn't respond. My superior wasn't availble and I took the shot.

They could have been terrorists trying to push a team through, or they could have been refugees who were running away or weren't able to hear properly in the bombing and noise for any number of reasons. There wasn't much a chance to investigate after, and a few days later a friend I've made who normally worked in the medical profiling department of the drafting center was able to make a phone call and help me get a transfer into a non-combatant profile.

Sometimes I liked to rationalize that I had no choice, that's what everyone else was doing... But that's bullshit. Sure, they could have been terrorists, but In my nightmares it's usually a bunch of families running away with their children trying to reach safety. Frankly my intuition leans towards the later.

glatt 09-16-2015 07:31 AM

I know my words will mean nothing, and that it's your own conscience that's haunting you, but I think you did the best you could at the time. You had been trained to behave in a certain way, you had orders to behave in a certain way, they were supposed to stop when they heard the loudspeakers, and they didn't, and you were supposed to shoot if they didn't. You did what you were supposed to do in a fucked up situation. And the fact that you feel badly about it means that you're not a sociopath.

DanaC 09-16-2015 01:50 PM

Wise words, glatt.

Gravdigr 09-16-2015 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 939134)
I am pretty sure he does. Our relationship lasted over a year, and during that whole time we successfully had sex maybe 6 times, and unsuccessfully attempted maybe another dozen. It was an issue we mostly just refused to address. At one point I gently suggested he might be gay, and he pretty vehemently disagreed, and for what it's worth he has since continued dating women to the best of my knowledge. But the girl he dated right after me was still in high school (16 to his 22? 23?) and I am 99% sure they were just holding hands and chastely kissing.

This man is gay, he just may not be aware of it.

fargon 09-16-2015 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim (Post 939091)
I peed on Paul Bidez

he was sitting with his back to me with his shirt off, and I peed right on his back on purpose.


he had it coming. I'm not sorry

Why would you do such a thing?

glatt 09-16-2015 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 939134)
Our relationship lasted over a year, and during that whole time we successfully had sex maybe 6 times, and unsuccessfully attempted maybe another dozen. It was an issue we mostly just refused to address. At one point I gently suggested he might be gay, and he pretty vehemently disagreed, and for what it's worth he has since continued dating women to the best of my knowledge. But the girl he dated right after me was still in high school (16 to his 22? 23?)

Together for a year? That changes everything. I thought you were talking about a one night stand.

So how close were you otherwise? Did you spend a lot of time together and click?

So if he was 22 for the next girlfriend after being with you for a year, then he was 21 for you? Was this all in college? This was college, wasn't it? Was this a hang out together once a week kind of thing, and visit each other's dorm rooms? Or were you a couple who were together a lot?

I'm trying to remember college. It was a lot more casual then and you would be apart for bigger stretches of time and live your own life.

Clodfobble 09-16-2015 04:35 PM

We did a play together in college, I was 18 and he was 20 or 21. We became friends, and after the cast party he gave me a ride home and effectively asked permission to kiss me. In my head, that made us exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend, because I never did the casual date thing. (I did the fuck buddy thing a couple times, but it was VERY clearly spelled out in those cases.) So within a day or two we were hanging out at his apartment, it became night, and I got naked. There was lead-up, obviously, but it was very much what I expected was supposed to happen next. He panicked, I assured him it was okay, we managed. A few nights later was the first time he lost it midway through the process, and frequency dropped radically from there. Everything else was fine, he wasn't my soulmate or anything but we had enough in common, spent most of our nights together. The first big red flag was when he told me flat out that he thought ponytails were unattractive, and tank tops were trashy, both of which I wore a lot. Later he admitted to having issues with my "past," to which my thought was, "dude, what little you know of my past is TAME, guess I won't be sharing any more of it..." And then I broke up with him awhile later.

Undertoad 09-16-2015 05:13 PM

Quote:

did a play
gay

Oh please, the last musical i did was two months ago. But no, yeah, I was in the theater geek clique in college and simply every male was gay. Only me, Joe, and Bill were not gay. And Buddy, who ran lights.

And it being the early 80s, all those gay guys could not come out to save their lives.

Your gent was gay, or damaged goods, which do you think it was?

Clodfobble 09-16-2015 05:26 PM

Both, actually. His mother was devoutly religious, but only got into all that when he was old enough to remember the change in their lifestyle, so he hated it even more. He was a rebellious teen, did a fair amount of sneaking out, pot, and eventually ecstasy. Then when he was a senior in high school his parents broke the big secret that he was adopted, which he'd never known. That fucked him up pretty hard, though he never actually told me, an old friend of his from high school accidentally let it slip in front of me. I met his parents a couple times, they were a pain in the ass (muttered to themselves about how he was going to "have to spend a night in jail before he would learn..." that he couldn't just drive around with an expired registration sticker on his car,) but not abusive or anything. Just normal dumb Midwestern folks who didn't know what to do with their skinny, androgynous, artsy son.

He admitted to potentially being bisexual before we'd started dating, sometimes wore makeup (foundation) and spent way more time on his hair than I did. But I was cool with all that! Because I was a cool girl, who didn't judge, y'know? I was cool enough to date a guy who was bi, you bet I was. On the other hand, all those signs kind of make my aggressive sexuality at the time a little less forgiveable. I should have seen what was going on even if he denied it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad
And it being the early 80s, all those gay guys could not come out to save their lives.

This was in 1999, in Austin. You could definitely be gay.

sexobon 09-16-2015 05:40 PM

Well there you go, Y2K was looming over him, he thought he was gonna die and the pressure of having to make his last few fucks great ones was too much for him.

Case solved.

Undertoad 09-16-2015 05:45 PM

And then the 16 year old, at age 23 - typically that age difference would be super-creepy because the guy is a sexual predator, but here he's doing it because she's not a sexual threat to him. But it's not that you were a threat: you shouldn't feel bad, you were pressing him for a standard heterosexual response and he couldn't get there. You were helping him channel his way to whatever he is. Whatever that is.

AND, AND, you were equally cheated, by not getting any sort of response that would have generated closeness and moving to the next level in a relationship ~ he should feel bad about that!

It's Round two that really says something. Round one, the standard response could be oh man she is really aggressive and i'm not sure i'm ready for all that -- but Round two the standard response is oh man she is really aggressive and this is gonna be super awesome.

sexobon 09-16-2015 06:01 PM

Of course, we'll need to see some late teen Clodfobble ponytail and tank top pics before we can rule that out completely.

footfootfoot 09-16-2015 06:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
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Clodfobble 09-16-2015 06:53 PM

That is absolutely a 100% accurate representation of me in junior high.

xoxoxoBruce 09-16-2015 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 939273)
...and eventually ecstasy.

But only six times. ;)

lumberjim 09-16-2015 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fargon (Post 939240)
Why would you do such a thing?

I was 8

it 09-16-2015 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 939228)
Wise words, glatt.

Thank you, I appreciate the thought, and on that note... Is that a bad time to mention I disagree with what you are attempting to do here - not just you two you but the whole thread you...

Bear with me here:

I know I linked this in the past (That bit is so useful), but...

You know the incident Louie describes here:


I happen to very much agree with him: That friend while trying to support and empower and show how good of allies they make to the person in question by how strongly they side with them on anything... Is also giving horrible advice and reinforces a very distorted one-sided and narrow perspective...
And I find it hard to disagree that walking through life believing to yourself that you are so amazing that anyone who doesn't answer your text messages immediately is a piece of shit who isn't good enough for you... Is a pretty shitty way to live your life.
Now, it's possible that her friend truely believes that, she has anlyzed the situation thoroughly and this is the best hypothesis she was able to come up with... But it's more likely that she just tried making her friend feel better, both out of caring and because better is a lot more enjoyable to empathize with, and then tried finding the best way to rationalize that.

Almost everything in life can have a multitude of perspectives and it's very easy to pick the ones that reflect best on us, the one that tells the story we want to hear... Or in the case of trying to comfort a friend, the one we want to tell.
Underneath all those perspectives though, there is - IMO - a truth, otherwise known as The shit that actually happened, and a common characteristics of The shit that actually happened are that it doesn't exclude the bits that did not fit in the story, doesn't care about how it makes people feel (Even though feelings - events in people's skulls - can certainly be parts of The shit that actually happened), and doesn't need to hide or dodge elements that make it particularly uncomfortable.
In contrast, one thing indicative of a good story is that even though it doesn't actually contradict in the fact it describes opposed perspectives, their meaning and implications contradict, and yet the author will still view it as a contradiction to avoid, because what's under protection isn't a conclusion on reason, it is an intended meaning. Often the shift is not in the variables, but the focus.
To give my own case as an example... Even if I was a good soldier, it does not in itself contradict the plausible possibility that children died from that. Both statements have no trouble been true in the same universe, they just shift the focus to generate one meaning rather then the other. What I did was... Probably both. The same is true for clod's case but I am going to pick that open unless asked.

Just like that "the amazing college girl", I think going through life denying the harm you cause or even could have caused others and filtering it through whichever perspective best suits you, excluding that which is ugly or puts you in a bad light... Is a pretty shitty way to live your life.

I don't know when exactly in history did guilt and remorse became emotions people shouldn't feel, but I think once it's there, you can't show someone understanding by trying to strip away the guilt's legitimacy.

DanaC 09-17-2015 03:14 AM

There is a difference between realsing you have done something wrong and experiencing guilt or remorse for it - and carrying that guilt around with you into the future.

I see no point in carrying around guilt for past deeds, or regrets for things done or not done.

Guilt, regret, remorse - these things are useful in small doses. Realising something you did or failed to do had consequences, accepting your responsibility and learning from that experience is useful. Intermittently beating yourself up for something you did a decade ago is not useful.

There is also a difference between being kind to your younger self, and denying your younger self's wrongs. Recognising that you did what you did because of the entire surrounding context is useful. The you that you are now might not do that, if faced with the same choice today. Undoubtedly, that is because the you that you are today, has learned from the experiences of that time and others. The flipside to that, is that the you of that time had not yet learned those lessons. You cannot look back from your 30s and 40s to yourself at 18 and apply the person you are to the person you were.

This goes for all growth and development, but it is particularly acute I think, when looking back at teens and early 20s. It's so easy to forgive our 6 year old self their ignorance. We seem to struggle to be so kind to our teenage and young adult selves. But they are the ones that need the most understanding and forgiveness.

xoxoxoBruce 09-17-2015 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceur (Post 939305)
Thank you, I appreciate the thought, and on that note... Is that a bad time to mention I disagree with what you are attempting to do here - not just you two you but the whole thread you...

No, you disagree with what you imagine other people are attempting to do here. There's no way you can know the intent of others, unless they tell you. Even if their action fits what you consider the pattern for such and such behavior, that's not intent.

The intent of most people here, most of the time, is have a little fun, kill a little time and occasionally to avoid things of the lawn mowing/cat washing/diaper changing sort.

it 09-17-2015 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 939314)
No, you disagree with what you imagine other people are attempting to do here. There's no way you can know the intent of others, unless they tell you. Even if their action fits what you consider the pattern for such and such behavior, that's not intent.

The intent of most people here, most of the time, is have a little fun, kill a little time and occasionally to avoid things of the lawn mowing/cat washing/diaper changing sort.


I am not talking about what they are doing with the cellar in general. I meant specifically with the "it's not your fault" thing within this thread.

From what I've seen, people come here to joke around but also to talk about various shit in their lives from family members with cancer to troubles at the shop. So while it's true that people come here for a little fun and to kill a little time where everybody knows your other name *insert cheers theme song spoof*, there is also a very strong aspects of people here becoming each other's support networks. Which in itself is actually pretty cool - it takes quite a bit for a community to evolve into that IME.
Trust me when I say that's an achievement - I've seen other places where even someone talking about their mother's cancer would be used as a weapon against them in future arguments. There is some of that kind of thing here, but not much.

It's just a matter that sometimes the most obvious ways to provide support can have unfortunate implications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 939312)
It's so easy to forgive our 6 year old self their ignorance. We seem to struggle to be so kind to our teenage and young adult selves. But they are the ones that need the most understanding and forgiveness.

...So if someone raped you or killed your loved ones or... Just insert some of the worst things you've experienced caused by another human being... and then years later you'd get to talk to them or confront them and bring it up... And they tell you, "well that's ok, I forgave myself"...

I don't know about you but I am not sure my ability to even imagine douchiness can come up with a higher level of it. This seems entirely contingent on the ability to avoid anyone you've ever hurt and create a bubble with which to continue your own life in which you can imagine on a daily basis that they don't exist.

Mind you, I don't think self flagellation is useful either, metaphorical or otherwise, in fact it can be just as much of a self-deception tool. I've known people who believe so strongly that through emotional self-flagellation they can resolve the problem because in their minds how bad they feel for doing something to someone else has to be worst then how bad it felt for the other to have it done to them, thus somehow "balancing it out". That is also IMO utter horseshit, and misses the point for the very same reason - it's not up to you.

DanaC 09-17-2015 12:55 PM

The one thing you absolutely cannot alter, is the past. You are human, and humans make mistakes, they make choices they regret and they hopefully learn from them.


If you told us that a few years ago you decided you wanted to see how it felt to rape or kill someone and so you did that - I would not be suggesting you set that aside and forgive yourself. That is not an error, or a mistake, that is a conscious and deliberate act of harm. But that is not what is being described in this thread.

A young soldier, making a rapid choice when the wrong choice either way could kill an innocent, or get himself or his comrades killed? I think that young soldier deserves forgiveness. Would I think that had my loved one been killed by him? Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to think I would.

We get one go around in this life, Trace, and the world is seldom kind.

glatt 09-17-2015 01:01 PM

I've come to learn that for many (perhaps most) people, we are our own worst critics.

Imagine what you would say to a person who had done what you feel you are guilty of. Would you be as harsh to them as you are being on yourself?

it 09-17-2015 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt (Post 939353)
I've come to learn that for many (perhaps most) people, we are our own worst critics.

Imagine what you would say to a person who had done what you feel you are guilty of. Would you be as harsh to them as you are being on yourself?

That is almost purely positional.

The vast majority of the time, if you are going to talk to someone about anything that makes you feel bad, their instinct is to try to make you feel good.
The Louie c.k. bit is a perfect example of that - the friend giving horrible advice is actually doing what we'd expect most friends to do, she is showing empathy towards the person right in front of her with whom she's closest with, showing how strong of an ally she is by siding with her, empowering and supporting her, doing what she has to do to.. Be nice. And most people do this. to be nice on the most immediate level, to say nice things that people want to hear. She is probably not consciously lying either - that's not really part of the process.
She was given a description of an underlining conflict with the meaning and consequences of exactly one side of it, so describing it as a story with only one side really is acting on all the information that's available to her - it's simply that her position doesn't put her in a situation where she has any motive to ask herself differently and stop to think about it.
And just like her, with a few exceptions - most of which include odd barriers to empathy like gender or religion or a bias stemming from a previous personal narrative - most people are going to do the exact same thing.
So yes, as a result of that very particular position, other people around you - trying to support you - are usually less harsh critiques then you, because they hear only your side of the story.

Except that if the conflicting perspective is mutual, then there are probably plenty of people not around you who are way worst critiques of you because they are trying to support the other person and telling that person a one sided story in which you are the asshole / crazy bitch / villain in a simple black and white story.
So no, people aren't less harsh critiques then you, it just so happens to be that the people whose criticism you are exposed too is less harsh then your own by virtue of those people's position, which is to be exposed to you back.

That is almost never true for the people you've actually hurt, who unlike you or the people who empathize with you, are not in a position to continue life pretending that their own experience doesn't exist. Under some circumstances they might prefer it stay buried under a rug, but that's not exactly forgiving you either.

In my experience, people who - perhaps as a result of the above dynamic - take it to heart and outright believe that they are their own worst critiques, are usually doing so precisely because that is not true, in order to avoid acknowledging criticism that are worst then their own, by virtue of including the perspectives and emotional consideration of those they hurt. Others take is as an excuse to not have to face up to the consequences of their actions towards others, much like the example of the self flagellation I gave above and the resulting delusion of some sort of karmic balance - "I already hate myself for it, and that is punishment enough, why should I try to do anything to make this better or to figure out why I did it to avoid doing so in the future?"

I have met people who truly are worst critiques of themselves, and they have two distinct characteristics:
1. They never believe that - they tend to assume others are secretly hiding the same criticism they have towards themselves but aren't revealing it.
2. The reason the criticism is worst is not because of viewing the actions as worst, it's because the view themselves as static objects, they don't ask "what's wrong with what I did, the choices I made", they ask "what's wrong with me, with who I am". I think this is a result from a very particular way some people experience choice making, as if they never have any other choice but the one they've made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 939352)
We get one go around in this life, Trace, and the world is seldom kind.

To be kind to yourself at other people's expense is pretty much what most horrible actions are made of.

Clodfobble 09-17-2015 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceur
That is almost never true for the people you've actually hurt, who unlike you or the people who empathize with you, are not in a position to continue life pretending that their own experience doesn't exist. Under some circumstances they might prefer it stay buried under a rug, but that's not exactly forgiving you either.

Does it really matter whether the person you've hurt forgives you? If you're attempting to be super objective about quantifying the damage you did, then yes, empathy towards you is irrelevant, but it's equally irrelevant if the victim holds a lifelong furious grudge against you.

We can do our best to make morality objective, but it will never be completely so--maybe you broke the guy's arm, but that kept him away from the vacation where he was going to accidentally fall off a cliff. You helped the old lady across the street, but the short delay in traffic meant that the sports car was speeding around the corner just as the little kid toddled out into the road. Sometimes it's not about getting empathy from others where none is deserved, it's about having empathy for yourself for being a meaningless ape in the vast universe.

DanaC 09-17-2015 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traceur (Post 939390)

To be kind to yourself at other people's expense is pretty much what most horrible actions are made of.



Trace, wtf are you talking about? How is being kind to yourself, and forgiving yourself for the mistakes of the past at someone else's expense?

Ffs, nobody is suggesting you go marching up to the family of someone you killed and tell them everything's fine. It's not at anybody else's expense. This is about what goes on in our own heads. It's about our relationship with ourselves.

Look -you want to hold on to guilt and sorrow - take it out at nights and dust it down to feel it all over again? go for it. It will have exactly the same impact on the people you feel you've wronged as if you spent that night sleeping peacefully.

Clearly you are much better and less selfish person than anyone else here.

I am done with this conversation.

it 09-17-2015 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 939396)
Does it really matter whether the person you've hurt forgives you? If you're attempting to be super objective about quantifying the damage you did, then yes, empathy towards you is irrelevant, but it's equally irrelevant if the victim holds a lifelong furious grudge against you.

It isn't irrelevant because the people been empathetic towards you are subjective, it is wrong because they are not faced with the consequences of your actions that the person you've harmed is - their perspective is biased towards a bubble that excludes them.
That experience of the person you've hurt is part of The shit that actually happened, the consequences are real events - even when they happen on a subjective level within people's skulls - and reaching conclusions on the basis of ignoring or contradicting those is based on ignoring The shit that actually happened, a.k.a. reality.

The person you've effected is unlikely to do that. With the exceptions of extreme cases of abuse, people generally don't exclude their own perspective and experience - they can't pretend it didn't happen. If they forgive you, it's not because of a position that enable them to easily ignore The shit that actually happened.

As far as forgiveness goes...
At the core I think forgiveness is about trust - to hold a grudge is to be on guard, to live expecting that the next time you meet the person your holding a grudge against they are going to give you the same punch your holding a grudge for in the first place. When it's not directed at someone in particular, it usually gets directed in general - at people, at life, at the opposite gender, sometimes at a race or nationality, sometimes it's even towards a more abstract concept, like sexuality or war. A big part of any trauma is the scar it causes and how deeply it can ingrain the fear of it happening again.
To forgive, when it's genuine, it's actually a result of mutual feedback allowing trust to be rebuilt, in which expressing understanding and remorse and trying to repent and make things better to whichever extent you still can - depending on the action - convinced them that you are unlikely to do so again, that they can go to sleep peacefully knowing that the next time they meet you they are not going to get punched again.
I think if you truly accept responsibility for the harm you caused another, you kind of need at least try to fix and heal whichever parts of the harm you can, and this is most often the biggest part of it that you can (If such a part is available to you at all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 939400)
I am done with this conversation.

I am not sure if I should respond to that - generally I think the responsibility to stay out of a conversation is on the person who doesn't want to be part of it though, so I'll go with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 939400)
Look -you want to hold on to guilt and sorrow - take it out at nights and dust it down to feel it all over again?

No, that is exactly what I meant in regards to people using self-flagellation as a strategy to create an illusion of some sort of karmic balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 939400)
Ffs, nobody is suggesting you go marching up to the family of someone you killed and tell them everything's fine. It's not at anybody else's expense. This is about what goes on in our own heads. It's about our relationship with ourselves.

You are just describing the opposite side of the same coin I described - I was saying that the stratagy of forgiving yourself is entirely contingent on never having to actually face up to whoever you've harmed and being able to create a pretend universe in which their experience and consequences don't exist.

It's meaningless because nobody - including yourself - actually exists in that universe. It usually becomes at other people's expense when you then need to go to arms to maintain the illusion that such a universe is real.

Sundae 09-18-2015 11:00 AM

Yeah but, no but. Taking it back to the OP - I just stole a scarf.
No regrets (yet) I love it.

Background:
Small market in Otley today, tomorrow is the biggest market of the week.
I sat in the square, reading my library book, eating a pastry.
Whole time I was there, the market had already been disassembled. But there was a lovely woollen scarf still attached to one of the uprights, which aren't taken down overnight on Fri-Sat, obviously because there are stalls on both days.

Read my book.
Looked and looked.
When I was ready to leave I thought "f*ck it" and liberated the scarf. It's soft and warm and as nicely done as one of Limey's (although without the love)
Is even in my Autumn colours - dark pink and dark green.

Do I feel bad?
A little bit.
But the stallholders weren't coming back at that time of day.
Better I had it than some silly drunkener tonight, who would have taken it as a prank and then discarded it.

Aliantha 09-19-2015 08:53 PM

It's like this thread was created for me.

Yesterday afternoon at 5.30 I received a call from a venue asking where the wedding cake was that was supposed to be delivered. Picture a three tier, white and gold, ruffled, rosed, tall pretty thing meant to feed 130 people for dessert. Malteser, raspberry white choc and lemon flavoured tiers.

Where was I? At a tupperware party.

Where was the cake?

Written in the diary for the wrong date!

Completely my fault. cake had been fully paid for months ago. In the normal course of events I receive calls or messages from at least the bride, and normally the venue too, during the week before just to confirm. For whatever reason, this didn't happen this time, and because I had it written in the wrong date, I of course didn't phone to confirm with them.

My first emotion? Sheer incrudulousness. How could I be so stupid? I just could not even imagine how I could manage to be in a situation so terrible.

In the end, the venue sorted something out. Still don't know what. Haven't spoken to the bride or her respresentative, so the suspense of the impending smack down is driving me nuts. I keep wanting to open the conversation, but then I tell myself that hopefully they had such a wonderful day that they are able to laugh off the series of events leading to this error, so why should I spoil it. Just happily refund the money and try to brush it off and move on.

I feel so awful though. I hope she doesn't go crazy and say bad stuff to me. The worst part is I was really looking forward to doing this cake, and it was to be a statement piece. Something that would generate a lot of business for me because of the size of the wedding etc. Just so unhappy with myself. Can't believe what a douche I am.

Sundae 09-19-2015 10:12 PM

Oh sweetheart. I feel your pain.
Breathe. Breathe through it.

If you're like me (and I think you are) this will surface in dreams years later.
But you know what?
I didn't get my flowers on my wedding day. My G-D FLOWERS! T'internet was still in it's infancy in this country, so I went to the nearest town by train to find the best florist. Narrowed it down to three, and chose the one which had the ideas which best matched mine.

On the day?
No flowers.
I'm not writing their name or even the town because it was a horrible series of events which caused it, and I had to accept their apologies. But aside from mentioning it here, it really didn't matter. What do I dream about? My missing flowers? No, I dream about being late for school and not studying for exams.

Be kind to yourself.
You'll worry about this far longer than the bride. She's just had the best day of her life.

Aliantha 09-19-2015 11:48 PM

Thanks sundae. I still haven't heard anything from the wedding party. I hope they contact me soon.

it 09-20-2015 12:54 AM

https://www.bakerdays.com/assets/sit.../large/889.jpg

edit: I was looking for an "I am sorry I ate your cake" cake. Google pics has failed me.

footfootfoot 09-21-2015 09:24 AM

Oh Ali, I know the feeling.

I once completely spaced out a really prestigious photography job. I called and apologized profusely and re-scheduled and then spaced out a second time. Eventually, I did the job but lost what would have been an extremely valuable client and god knows how many recommendations.

xoxoxoBruce 09-27-2015 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha (Post 939627)
Thanks sundae. I still haven't heard anything from the wedding party. I hope they contact me soon.

Make the cake, take it and two or three kids to the junkyard, find a really smashed up car, smash the cake, sprinkle the kids with ketchup, snap a couple pictures. Piece of cake. ;)

Aliantha 09-27-2015 11:05 PM

Update. I heard from the bride. She was ok, then I explained the sequence of events that lead up to the event and she thought I was blaming her because I said that one thing that normally happens is the bride rings to confirm delivery times etc, but she didn't do that. Then she got shitty. Left a bad review on my page. Said she'd be in touch again after her honeymoon about compensation. I have given a full refund of money paid. Hopefully she's not going to go insane about the compensation. Pretty sure it'll be hard for her to get blood out of this stone anyway.

sexobon 09-28-2015 12:26 AM

At least you've got some lead time to make yourself a few cakes with contraband in them should you wind up in debtor's prison.

Aliantha 09-28-2015 01:27 AM

Haha...yeah.

Seriously though, if she's lucky, she can make a claim through my business insurance. I still haven't checked if that sort of thing is covered, but I suspect so.


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