Depressing/ Suicide
 

Cyanide and Happiness (Explosm.net) has done some depressing cartoons.
Man, he hit the bulls eye with this one.
I hope anyone contemplating suicide sees this and takes it to heart.

ouch

Why does our society stigmatize suicide? Does a person not have the right to make a decision about when they want to die and how? Society supports a woman's right to terminate a fetus. A portion of our society endorses executions. It is justified and even heroic to kill the enemy during war. It seems to meet our society condones the right to take the life of another, but if a person decides to take his own he is suddenly deemed selfish.

If I was to commit suicide, Keryx would be emotionally and financially destroyed. And because the life insurance would not pay off she would be stuck with a lot of bills. Suicide is selfish.

A QUESTION: Why does our society stigmatize suicide?
 

Only within a certain time frame. After that it's murder.

Only for certain crimes. After that it's vigilantism.

Only under certain conditions. After that it's war crimes.

Not if they meet society's criteria for euthanasia. After that it's selfish.

Yes and society has the right to label them selfish, cowardly; or, both. Freedom of expression you know.

I guess if you have suicidal urges, you could always go to a movie theater.

;

You're not going to guilt trip someone who feels bad out of committing suicide. That'll just make them feel worse. Although the cartoon is true. It's a "lose, lose" scenario, I fear ...


Sent by thought transference

You may be right Limey, people come to that decision for a variety of reasons. But anyone contemplating it isn't thinking straight anyway. I tend to contemplate murder, rather than suicide. ;)

As someone who was unwillingly saved (but I owe him my very life), I concur.
There are as many reasons to want to die as there are people. But mine was the pressure of inflicting constant pain on those who loved me.
Get it out of the way in one big dollop. Better for the few (I thought, though it turned out to be more) to have a big cut, than a million little paper cuts, day after day, as I failed them again and again.

I'm not out of those woods yet, either.
But I am more cognisant of the fallout. and aware how many people care.

Then this "cartoon" would be aimed at you. Don't be selfish, we don't need the pain. You'd be surprised how people who handle paper for a living get used to paper cuts... comes with the territory. ;)

I guess what I'm saying is that if you feel so worthless that the world is better off without you, then the only choice left is how to remove yourself.

Losing Brianna hurt dreadfully. But last December, no-one could have convinced me that I was worth anything compared to her. So even though I knew suicides hurt other people, I couldn't apply it to me. Because I didn't matter. If I thought I did, I wouldn't be trying it.

It's been five months since I last tried (poor Dr Dana had to call the ambulance that time - I'm working through the Dwellars).
I think I'm almost stable now.

I am on the receiving end of that pain. More than once. It changes you. And it doesn't go away.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Anyone who hasn't been on the receiving end of that pain is extremely lucky.

Or very alone.

You know what's interesting? The social reflex that when something feels bad we explain it as bad by attaching another more reasonably bad thing to it.

For instance here the message is "suicide is bad because it abandons loved ones". That doesn't make suicide bad, it makes abandoning loved ones bad, which you can do without committing suicide, and depending on circumstances you might be able to commit suicide without abandoning loved ones - by not letting yourself have any.
Even then, it would depend on the nature of the relationships - not every relationship has a responsibility that can be compared to a father and son. If you are truly suffering from being alive, would your co-workers or acquaintances be as entitled for your continues suffering just so they won't experience that little moment of sadness? Can anyone truly be entitled to your continuous suffering?

I don't think it's question of worth either, though feeling worthless is probably a big cause of suffering, as can many other things be. Even if the world would in some ways be better when you are alive, even if you can be a contributing member of society or have a job that solves problems or improves people's lives, even if you can make friends laugh and feel inspired and entertained, and have people who's lives are a bit better because your around... Does that mean you have to stick around and continue to live in pain?
A lot of pain doesn't go away - you either adapt to live with it or don't. If you aren't responsible for anyone else, or if the people you do feel responsible for are better off not having you in their lives, or you might not even have any right to be in their lives, then... All that is left is yourself, and if we hold adults responsible for their lives, then staying alive has to be a choice they make, a real choice, and that can only exist when they also have the choice not too.

The message here is that the relief of pain through suicide often comes at the expense of causing pain to others, thinking that it won't cause pain to others may be a delusional rationalization, and that the delusion may be transient unless the suicide is accomplished. The message also provided for exceptions. The overview is that good people can have bad ideas and it's OK for others who care to challenge those ideas.

I am surprised: Wasn't it you that preached at one point that entitlement is in the eye of the beholden? I feel like previously we were on somewhat opposite ends in regards to much of the same principles here.

I agree that it can be a delusional rationalization - people who kill themselves because they feel worthless so they assume nobody would really care or be hurt by it. The reverse illusion probably happens as well - you hear about people who try to kill themselves with suicide notes drenched in defiance, a "this will show them!" kind sentiment, when often by the time they reach that point there is no "them" to show anything too. Likewise, you could also be delusional in regards to your motivations in life and reasons to live.
Again though, that is an attached negative - delusions in general can be rather negative and often make for bad judgement calls, and this would also apply to suicides, as it would apply to driving and career decisions and extreme sports - that's not an attribute of any of those, it's an attribute of delusions.

Apples and oranges.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


There's a distinction between matters of life or death and matters of happiness in that the former is an outcome while the latter is a pursuit. Social propriety changes with the gravity of the situation. You have the right to kill yourself and others have the right to pursue changing your mind if that would make them happy. You have the right not to kill yourself to keep them happy; but, no right to entitlement for it, only to the pursuit of entitlement (if that's what makes you happy) which would be at the others' discretion.

I can see how that might surprise someone honing talking the talk without walking the walk. I'm sure it could be surprising for other reasons too.

One of the things many people don't realize about depression is that is can completely change your reality. Just as you now think and feel and know to be true that suicide isn't the answer (for the sake of argument) depression makes an entirely different reality true. As true as your name and address. You are worthless. No one cares if you live or die. There is absolutely no future for you.

These thoughts are the reality for many depressed people. Reality as in un-assailably true, not a mood or a feeling. As true as your name and address and the sky being blue. People telling you that you are loved and worthy mean as much as someone telling you that if you wish hard enough you'll win the lottery without a ticket.

I've never been one to walk out of a movie before it's overm but I am lucky to have a mind that is able to know the thoughts aren't true and that like a bad case of food poisoning they will pass and I just have to ride them out. They are there along with all their shitty friends; shame, judgement, and ridicule.

A big motivator for me is that I don't want You Know Who being the sole author of my kids' lives.

:facepalm: Actually they would probably apply a false-consensus bias and thus expect you to do exactly as you did, so they wouldn't be likely to be surprised at all. I was surprised because the talk was not only not applied but outright contradicted in the walk... probably because of the same bias on my end, and good faith in people.

We... Are not going to get along very well.

To answer what you are trying to rationalize: Yes, you can intervene when someone tries to kill themselves. It depends on extent of the intervention though (You do not have a right to forcefully prevent or stop an adult from killing themselves).
Then there's paying attention to the whys, and as important, your own limitations: You don't know how they truly feel or how much pain they are in, you can empathize and sympathize but its inherently outside of your qualia - it's in theirs - and chances are if you were their friend you don't know how to actually help them heal in a way they'd agree with or that would have being under way already - and even if you and possibly other people would be hurt by their death, they don't owe you to keep suffering and stay alive for the sake of you feeling peppy. If you'd truly cared about them, would you even want them too?

Suicide is the single most selfish act a person can commit. Period.

^WHS^

I don't know, I am currently frying eggrolls, entirely for myself, in an apartment I am renting for my self-serving egoistical purposes paid with a job I have for the sole purpose of making myself moneyz for my own purposes... Feels rather egoistical.

Look, a couple of months ago my uncle died from parkinson. It was a slow and painful death, there was no dignity, towards the end he didn't even have the benefit of being able to experience much of his identity or relationships - his own children, grandchildren and wife were foreign for him, they might have been there but at that moment his life in his mind's eye had no loved ones. He is a religious man, so thoughts of suicide never really really came up intiialyl and later he was all too lost most of the time, except for in a few lucid moments towards the end, but in them he begged to end it. And he was dismissed. His wife begged him not to talk like that, his children - all grown men - told him he is talking nonsense... And a few months later he died with no control of his bowls or idea of his loved ones and sometimes loosing grasp of speech and who he was. While I understand where they were coming from, they were still in practice demanding that he'd stay alive and suffer little bit longer so they can procrastinate their suffering. Frankly, I don't think his was the most egoistical side of that argument.

A rather broad brush there, Grav.

Consider traceur's post ^^^

Your loss

and

I wasn't asking;

because,

You like to hear yourself talk too much. ;)

Well, it is a slippery slope...

:rotflol:

I say it is a personal decision. No one should try to make you feel guilty if you decide your quality of life is no longer worth it.

And if your daughter was thinking of making such a decision?


Sent by thought transference

It's my job as a parent to give her a guilt trip

Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1895

Then you go oh noes that's unthinkable and she learns the space with which she can communicate her thoughts isn't by you. A more problematic question is: Could she be right? What if she is suffering so much that her quality of life really isn't worth while living and she truly has no reasonable cause for hope to improve it to a point where it would be? If you loved someone, and they where really in that state of suffering, would you want them too continue living just for you?

IMO The key word which makes this such a difficult line is what counts as "reasonable"....

To the example I gave before - sure, it's possible they would have invented the cure for parkinsons right on time and my uncle would have been in the first test batch - or... Aliens.. But it's not likely - it's not a reasonable cause for hope.
On the opposite extreme, If his daughter is 16yo and just had her heart broken for the first time, the chances she'll recover are pretty close to 100%, if she doesn't it's more likely to be because an asteroid has hit earth then because of the heartbreak itself.
Those examples are pretty black and white, but there' a whole spectrum in between, and the closer it is to the middle the harder it would be to make sense of it.

Christ, I see this with dog and cat owners all the freaking time. The fucking animal is miserable but they don't want to kill it because they will feel sad when it's dead, even though the grass hasn't grown over it's grave before they get a new one.

If they can't let go of a pet, they sure as shit aren't giving a pass to their family.

This is where a good medical staff and counsellors earn their keep,
... helping family members let go and giving the dying permission.

Yes, the "Death Panels" was a provision for doctors to spend time with elderly and terminally ill patients, explaining the possible end of life options. From do not resituate, to refusing life extending drugs/procedures, while they still are of sound mind. It's important because relatives will always choose save Uncle Willy, no matter how much Willy is suffering. Looking at the choices doctors choose for themselves, shows yes to pain killers and no to most everything else.

You mean they should sit/lay in the same position all the time??? They can't move? Not even a little?

:p:

That's right, leave 'em in the gutter with the pigs and night soil. http://cellar.org/2012/bwekk.gif

Mum had "the conversation" with Grandad when he was still well enough to make the decision.
He was a typical, stoic old Cockney of his generation. Didn't want to be a bother to anyone. Don't hook me up to any of those pipes.

In the end he slipped off peacefully in the nursing home and Mum, Dad, Laura and I were there - Stevo was on his way back from London. The home called to say he was near the end - we were all expecting it. No bother to anyone, it was between teatime and Coronation Street.

I am such a selfish witch that losing Diz hit me harder than losing Grandad.
But I do miss him. Proper old school, was Grandad.

I don't know how I missed this, but somehow - until I noticed you calling these "death panels" - It never clicked in my mind that this was what the republicans were complaining about with the whole US public health policy thing a few years back.

It's not selfishness. Diz was embedded in your day-to-day existence at a much more fundamental level.

It hit me much harder when I lost Pilau than when I lost my Dad. Just because - every second of the day was a reminder that I no longer had Pilau - whereas missing Dad came in waves. Dad was Dad - but Pilau was my everything.

from...

Oregon sometimes gets national publicity over it's "Death With Dignity Act"

But after it's passage, the whole issue has settled down.
There are even comments among the public health professionals
that the numbers may be leveling off after an initial rise.

Of course, some people will always have trouble with the concept,
but those who come to have personal knowledge of life situations
see the benefits to the person and their family.

This graph shows the difference between Rx's and actual deaths is increasing
... thereby giving the individual choice and control over their own life.

Saying goodbye

I like patheos. I liked that article, though it was very sad.

Thanks Happy Monkey.

Just had this (these) conversation(s) with my 81 year old father, who lives with us and who is having surgery tomorrow. We've talked before and I know his general thoughts and wishes, but he hadn't previously put his wishes in writing. There are plenty of articles about doctors choosing to die 'differently' than their patients, i.e. without much fuss or medical intervention, at home. I suspect that's what many people would prefer. The tricky part lies in being able to say fairly accurately when further treatment/intervention really won't make any difference. If medical staff could clearly communicate that, and people felt enough trust to believe it, would the last few weeks/days of life go better for more people? I think and hope so.

Calling conversations about compassionate and dignified care at the end of life 'Death Panels' in order to create fear and visions of involuntary euthanasia was a truly despicable political lie. Unworthy of any party.

I agree with you, 100%. I just listened to a friend this week telling me about the shit his father... and the whole family, went through before he died this year. Most of it for lack of clear communication between the patient, family and several doctors. Heartbreaking.