04/28/03: The Cult-like Mindset
 

In this thread, I want to enumerate all the various characteristics of cult-like behavior.

There's a certain mindset that people often fall into, and it seems to be a very common and dangerous thing. Often people who fall into this way of thinking have a reality and logic all their own. The process by which people are converted to this mindset often equates to mind control. I feel like I have a certain insight into this process because I've experienced it for myself. I've never written it all down before though, so I don't have all the points in my head right now. I always find myself recognizing certain ways of thinking whenever I see them, but I usually forget the point a short time afterward.

So, this thread will be a work in progress, and I'll add to it whenever I come across something that I recognize from my past.


Point #1: You have all the answers.

Many cults have a leader that seems to know everything. The all-inspiring divine entity. He's a prophet, blessed by God with eternal knowledge. Maybe he actually is Jesus himself. Maybe he or she has just had a near-death experience whereby they "crossed over to the other side", and that experience granted them great insight and a newfound zest for life. Or maybe they've just figured some really cool shit out, and noone else will admit that they have the answer. Yeah, that's it! It's a conspiracy! Those naysayers will eventually realize that we were right, when that 10-mile wide asteroid smacks them in the face!!

My point is that in all cults, there's a sense that they have all the answers on a certain topic. In many cases, this feeling is so strong that there is an actual person who is actually purported to possess irrefutable knowledge.

It's comforting to know that someone in an organization or group that you've just joined has all the answers. If someone's just becoming interested in a certain philosophy or way of thinking, they'll no doubt have a lot of questions. Most likely the very reason they sought out the group is because they had unanswered questions on a certain topic.

Curiosity seems to be one of the driving forces of humankind. It's almost as strong as hunger in some cases. We <i>want</i> to know what's going on, how things work. It kills us not to know. I think that's why we've come so far as race. The industrial revolution, the microchip revolution, science, religion. Or how about the search for a shorter route to India? Hell, even the mass migration out of Africa is an example of this. Who knows why Man decided to leave his home 2 million years ago? 4 million years ago, our ancestors developed the ability to walk upright. But then it took them 2 million years before they just up and decided to leave Africa. What, suddenly your home's not good enough? Did something happen in our brain? Was some sort of curious drive spawned just then? What was there 4 million years ago that wasn't there 2 million years ago?

I guess they were probably just chasing after food, but I like to think there was also certain sense of adventure and curiosity about the whole thing, too. Maybe they wanted to see what was out there?

Getting back to the hypothetical person joining the group, they're seeking answers. In some people's cases, it's not so much a quest for the truth as it is an attempt to get rid of that annoying feeling of doubt and uncertainty. Then, they pop their new friends all the big questions, and the answer comes back, "It's <i>this</i> way. No question about it. I <i>know</i> for sure".

This indoctrination process takes some time, as the student has to become convinced that their new friends' philosophy really is irrefutable. There's a certain euphoria that comes with being content in your knowledge. It's just like eating a big steak -- you don't have that terrible, aching hunger anymore, and it's <i>so</i> wonderful. Can't everyone have this feeling? But was what I just learned right? <i>Stop asking questions!</i> You don't want that aching feeling to come back, do you? Besides, <i>we have all the answers</i>, because it's ordained by God/I spoke to Jesus personally/the other scientists won't admit it/the bible isn't open to interpretation.

Undertoad and I both have a high regard for the philosophy of "sometimes I'm wrong". It's a very important thing to remember, because sometimes you <i>are</i> wrong, even when you're sure you're right. But this philosophy is important for more than just avoiding mistakes. Believing that there is an irrefutable source of knowledge somewhere can be very dangerous. It will suck you up, and encompass you in a world all your own. You'll live in the same world everyone else lives in, but you'll interpret everything you see through a thick reality filter. You'll only see your own reality, and it will reach the point where you'll develop blind spots around the truth just to protect your imaginary truth. The brain reaches this desperate state where it'll do anything to maintain the illusion of the world it's built up around itself. Drugs pale by comparison, because you can get so far gone that the brains' defense mechanisms are like second nature. It becomes more than a philosophy -- it's a way of constructing your thoughts. Once you're that far gone, the only way out of it is to completely re-do the skeletal architecture of your brain and re-think how to interpret reality. And that is a difficult task indeed.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What about "The Enemy"? It just seems that every cult has it's devil, so to speak. Some big bad that only it's members can protect people from or be safe from. For instance, for the Manson 'Family' it was the 'political piggies'.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It just seems like every cult I've ever read about had some kind of Evil thing opposing it.

Yeah, that's true! Although in some cases it's not an actual person, but some horrible event that's going to happen. Like the end of the world, or whatever. I guess any movement needs a reason to exist.

There's also the concept of "The Other", which is usually some group of people that's not of your group, and probably imposes an imaginary (or real) threat of some kind. Like Russians, or Arabs, or Blacks, or Indians. You get the idea. Any group of people has some other group of people that they imagine is not like them and is therefore a threat. They don't know who they are, but by God, they're different.

It seems like "The Other" is often used as an excuse for all kinds of things, usually propagation of someone's political or religious philosophy.

I also read in relation to that concept that people often define themselves in relation to people who are not them. For example, there was a study that asked Canadians what it meant to be Canadian, and an overwhelming majority of them said "Not American". It's sort of like the English saying, "Well, at least I'm not French".

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I think 'family' is another one. The idea that 'we' are all in this together. That they can rely on one another. This sounds great, until it's time to drink the kool-aid.

Radar could be a member of a cult, but he's not very good at getting new victims--er, recruits. He's too much of a sac fungus to others...at least on Cellar.

I'm thinking he's an ex-Libertarian deprogrammer sweeping the web spreading the seeds of discontent among libertarian leaning folks, helping them drop out of politics all together or herding them back into the two majors. say... is that grape flavored? yah pass me a big ole glass of that

I'm don't think Radar's a member of a cult. I do see signs of a cult-like mindset in him, though. Perhaps it's a poorly chosen name, because I don't think you have to be a member of a cult to have the mindset. It's like, there are certain techniques and characteristics of thinking that are common across a whole range of groups and people.

The challenge of this thread will be to describe cults without describing Catholicism.

(No disrespect intended, one could say that about a lot of groups and I just chose the easiest target)

I'd say almost all religions are cult-like. But Catholicism might be the worst.

Being a loner is not natural. Never underestimate the peace of mind that comes from "belonging". You go to work, come home, watch TV and sleep. Rinse..repeat. That sucks. Then a group comes along that will accept you. You suddenly have something to do, a purpose and direction. Serve the master, spread the truth and show the world you're part of a group. Of course there's the other end of the spectrum. Underground groups with secret shit. I know the answers but I ain't telling you, so I'm cooler than you are. Either way, the important thing is being part of a group....like the cellar.

So, in a way, Shepps is a cult leader.

Shaddap, you. Punishment later.

Yes massah.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;At what point is one a loner? I used to joke that if I died my body wouldn't be found 'till the smell bothered a neighbor. I was happy at that point as well. I will admit that humans tend to be social creatures. However, I think this goes to far.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Some people, particularly people with low self esteem, need the assurance from others. Cults can provide that.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Of course I have it on good authority from friends that grew up Catholic that the Catholic church is better about providing guilt than acceptance. So there's one difference.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As far as the Cellar goes, I don't think it qualifies as my social outlet or as a cult. After all, I don't like you people. ;-D

Speaking of cults. ;)

"The Eagles will go 16-0 and win the Super Bowl"

I'm, sorry. I was thinking of normal people. I should have realized the cellar in not the appropriate venue. My mistake;)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;No, dude, it's cool. I think your point about people being social creatures is pretty valid. I just wondered where you were going with the loner thing.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And yes, the sense of 'belonging' that a cult can provide is obviously quite powerful.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder if there's a connection between people that don't really need that feeling of belonging and loners? I say this because while I'm mildly social, even though my friends bitch that I only show up if I'm specificaly invited, belonging has never been a big thing for me. I especialy hate formal groups of any sort. They always want me to talk to people about the group or lead something or another. Why the hell would I want to do that when I could be happily eating a pizza, watching a movie, playing a game or BSing with a friend? Sorry, I was using myself as an example and went off a little...
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Still, I think the point is interesting. And even somewhat connected to the topic...

I share your dislike of formal groups. You mentioned friends a couple times in your post. You seem to prefer when and where you interact with them. That's a far cry from what I would consider a loner that won't or can't have friends at all. I would say your nearer the middle of the spectrum. xoxoxoBruce now practices his duck and cover drill from grammer school...;-))

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So, where do things stand on this thread?
1. You have the answers
2. Opposition aka "The Other"
3. Family or group togetherness, making followers feel a part of something.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Is this accurate then? Does everyone agree on these? Can anyone think of any more?

Abdicating any control or sense of control on the part of the follower is a more comforting and seductive aspect of cult joining than you might expect ... you don't have to make ANY decisions. The leader has made them for you.

(okay, so this is kind of an extension of the family thing, but to an extreme degree)

Maybe a refinement of Wolf's point.

In the parlance of "Philosophy of Religious Thought" the word for it is Fideism ... abjurning rational thought in favor of an irrational faith. Believing, contrary to evidences, that the person who is leading is right and true, and therefore has the authority to dictate anything and everything.

"Drink the Kool-Aid"
"The Celestial Comet is coming"
"Give us all your earthly posessions"
"Norah Jones is the new Ella Fitzgerald"

You see how this sort of thing can easily get out of hand.

-sm

please tell me no one actually believes this. i dont think i could live in a world like that. :)

~james

Let's see how her second record does. Everyone raved about Fiona Apple too, and her second record didn't fare so well. Where the fuck has she been?

(Don't get me wrong...I like Norah and all, but compared to Ella? Not even close...just remember, when you're happy, you listen to Ella. When you're sad, you listen to Billie.)

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So, where do things stand on this thread?
1. You have the answers
2. Opposition aka "The Other"
3. Family or group togetherness, making followers feel a part of something.
4. The freedom to not think or make your own decisions.
5. Norah Jones is no Ella Fitzgerald.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I guess that sums it up then.

I caught an interview with Oscar Peterson, man Billie was a sad case. He was descibing this gig they did where Billie brought down the house in the first set and the band was feeling pretty pumped up. Then they tried to start the second set. They repeated the intro five or six times but Billie had gotten a fix between sets and she just stood there. Oscar said he promised his Mom he wouldn't do any drugs, it stood him well even though not using in jazz circles was considered a pretty quaint idea.

Billie Holliday lived an incredibly short and tragic life...hooker, singer, junkie, etc. "Strange Fruit" is easily one of jazz's greatest and most disturbing tunes.

Like Janis Joplin. Now before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm not comparing talent just tragic lives.

Who would get riled over that? Both were incredibly talented.

i think janis was a very talented songwriter, but i (personally) cant stand her voice. billie, on the other hand, had both. but thats just me. ive known a lot of people who love joplins voice. its kind of like a cult (see? ontopic).

~james

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In our cult-mindset search it seems we have come across a small group of the native wild life. It would appear they are fervently discussing what many people would call, "Old people music."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Let's see if we can get a closer look. Careful now, some of these specimens have been known to flame...

I thought about the "every cult has it's devil" thing, and I don't think it's necessarily true. When I was into witchcraft, we did "battle demons", but that was more for fun. The real driving force of the whole thing was discovering the unknown. I think the cultishness of it could have existed without having any enemy at all.

The reason this comes up in some cults, I think, is that fear is often used to manipulate people., It's a powerful tool, even when used unwittingly. In order for cults to convert people to their views and keep them there, they can use a whole range of techniques, and fear is just one of them. So of course, since fear is such an effective tool, it is often used. But I really don't think it's necessary for something to qualify as a cult. It's also true that cults are in no way alone in using this tool. I think it's used a whole lot throughout our society. Especially America.

I think Wolf and Smoothmoniker nailed it on #4. I totally agree. Although really, #4 seems to me to just be #1 re-worded.

I agree with Bruce that being part of a group is something that's seen throughout all of society. Perhaps the reason you often see groups of nuts together is that a group reinforces its members' beliefs. It's as if each person is a mirror that reflects and magnifies the validity of everyones' views and self-confidence. The giant network makes each individual node stronger. This is otherwise known as Group-think. And when a bunch of nuts get together and agree on something.. whoo-boy. You're not changing their mind this century, let me tell you.

Is a group a prerequisite to cult-like thinking, though? I'm not sure. You'd think that such a person would eventually realize the error of their ways after being constantly told they're a nut by everyone they meet, and never having anyone reinforce their beliefs. Who knows, though?

As to #5, I have no idea who either of those people are. But I do like Frank Sinatra and Harry Connick Jr. Does that make me uncool? :)

hell, no! get some ella fitzgerald though. :)

~james

I haven't met many people that are ambivalent about Joplin. Some love her and some hate her but all seem to be firm, if not rabid, in their convictions. I love her but gave up trying to convert the nay sayers long ago.

Yes. But there is a simple remedy:

step 1 - listen to "Thelonious Monk, The Composer" while ...
step 2 - read "Beneath the Underdog" by Charles Mingus and ...
step 3 - sipping a Johnny Walker Black on ice.

Repeat as needed. BTW Whit, this is not just Old People music.

-sm

Nope, never heard of any of those people, either. This could continue forever, though, as I've also never heard of most of the artists mentioned in the "What's playing on the stereo" thread.

It's understandable, juju. You're from an area where country and southern rock are king. Not to mention, jazz/big band/swing is nothing like it was pre-1960.

But I'm grateful that I had my grandmother and aunt, along with my own sense of musical adventure, to school me on the old school...and to open my ears to musical diversity.

Now, the internet makes the sky the limit.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ah yes, that must be why I insulated myself by using the term "many people". ; D
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I was just being a smart-ass anyway, I listen to classical a lot. Talk about old people music...
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;By the by, I don't have any now, but I grew up on early blues and jazz. Well, and a little Dr. Demento...

So, where might I have had the opportunity to hear those people? I don't mean live. I mean, where would I have come across their music?

1--Living in a large city with a large number of radio stations.

2--Passed on from relatives/others that listen to the music.

Ah. Now, see, I lack both of those. Except for my brother, who's deep into the "jam band" music.

Back to the cult theme of the thread, did anyone else see the King of the Hill season finale? Bobby joined the "Coven of Artimes" it was pretty funny.

material goods. they are always important...either in the complete abdication or collection of such.

What, you mean like preparing for armageddon? Collecting canned foods and bottled water and such? Or guns?

no...like controlling how you handle the trappings of material stuff is a part of that. in mainstream christianity, it is preached that you be "in the world, but not of the world." to some, that means be different enough so people can see it. to the amish, it means no electricity. to jim jones, it meant...give it all to me, and live in my commune.

ray stevens says:

rita got a letter from her second husband
told her that he might be passing thru town next wednesday
wouldn't she like to get together, catch a movie, fool around?
he didn't write that, but she read it

rita couldn't help but think there might be trouble
something in the way he signed his name...peculiar
calls himself nirvana now, instead of beauregard,
that makes it awful hard...

because you see
he gave away her alimony
he never even bothered to thank her
for not calling the law....that wasn't all
he gave the car
the dogs and her brother's guitar
the one that he sent back from rio
back in '73!
--


they say....................................
relinquish your material items
(your window on the world)
come out, be separate
and i will go tooling around in the car that your stuff bought me.


dar

Heck, add em all up and wah-lah....welcome to the defence force.
I've always viewed it as cult-like in many ways, particularly when i'm ordered to take part in some of the more arcane traditions which can vary from ridiculous time wasting enterprises through to downright scary for the uninitiated.

Having said that, and being an average joe, it is nice to not have to think unless I choose to and share a huge plateau of mediocrity with a bunch of egalitarian people I know I can count on.
An interesting side note: Many join having never worked in the 'real' world. Many of these people become disillusioned and flee in droves after 6-10 years. Of these, many are so appalled with the security (and, by comparison, ethical) vacuum in the 'real' world they return within a short time seeking re-employment. Please don't ask me to back this up with numbers as I don't know anything other than they are significant.

I find it hard to distinguish "cult-like" mentality from the good-ole strong 'tribe' mentality. ie. one in all in, all under one leader, a common goal etc.

Which is crazier, I wonder? Me spending most of my adult life learning more efficient ways of anhiallating my fellow man or dancing naked in a field under a new moon.

Just to prove I'm a multiple cult daliant-

Are (is for cultists) the United States a cult? Try suggesting to a public school teacher that education may not be a necessary function of the State. Try telling one of the converted that our constant use of force overseas could be detrimental to our security. Those groups have all the answers.

We often hear Greens, Libertarians, or (your party here) described as cult like, effectively labeling them "The Other" because they doubt the righteousness of our society. We have the conveniently rotating other overseas. We label them by race or nation emphasizing how different they are from right thinkers like us.

School kids are still saluting the flag each morning and studying state approved civics much like their counterparts in Hitlers Germany. We fly flags from and apply patriotic stickers to our cars signaling group connection. We believe supporting our troops means keeping them in places where people want to kill them. Yep we are a family and the President is our father.

So at what point does the cult end and normal human social units begin? I've seen families who were different enough that someone somewhere would call them a cult. Any human interaction involves the ideas we're talking about to a lesser or greater degree.

C'mon Griff. Not all cultists are idiots.

Truth. I'm thinking we're all cultists at some level, so we have the whole curve of idiocy.

wanna buy a rose? it supports mission work.

What distinguishes a cult from the better-respected aspects of society?

cults have fewer members.

Better respected = large????

So a cult is a proto-society. Once it has enough members, it's a respected part of society -- a religion, a government, an entire culture, whatever.