8/12: Palestinian getting kicked (thx sapienza)
 

http://cellar.org/pictures/kickpales.jpg

Young Israelis mount an immature attack on a Palestinian.

Uhh
 

Maybe its just me, but whenever I'm around officials with guns--I tend to be on my best behavior.

These people are just kicking and pulling at someone? An old lady no less?

Incredible.

Wow.
 

What I find extremely sick about this all, being Jewish, is that Jews and the Palestinian/Arabic/Muslim community peacefully co-existed for thousands of years, especially in Moorish Spain, North Africa, and throughout the rest of the world there.

This is propaganda spread on both sides, especially by extremists from the Jewish community, whom I denounce. Please don't view these people as being Jewish in any sense of the word. They may look and act like Jews, and even go to services as well, however they are not Jews. We're not taught to outright abuse people like that. This behavior reminds me more of the Hitler Youth than of Jews.

I'm not absolving the Muslim community with a broad brushstroke either. Right now, however, I view the Palestinian community as mere pawns in a game dominated by Hafez Assad, Saddam Hussein, Hashemi Rafsenjani, and the Arab League, because of the fact that the Arab leaders care more about their political ambitions than the Koran.

Well, there is that issue of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount as well :). Those flames have been there for 2,000 years!

Most wars are fought over access to warm-water ports. If you look at most of the Arab world, it's landlocked. The state of Israel straddles a major strategic route between the Red Sea and the Mediterranean that reduces shipping costs. Whoever controls that strip of land can control a major portion of commerce into the Arab world because of the port control and access to potential key distribution routes for Iraq, Syria, and several other countries from the Mediterranean. Israel isn't also a complete wreck of a country like Lebanon has been since the 70's.

Why do you think the Soviets invaded Afghanistan? It was to get access to Pakistan eventually, and from there have a quicker warm-water route for their ships. If they would have made it to Pakistan, there would have been serious issues with China, but that's a world war waiting to happen in itself :).

While there is religion involved, there is also the complete issue of economics as well. Israel, unlike most of the other countries in that area, has a very well-developed infrastructure that the Arab world covets, as well as several well-developed port cities.

IMHO, the war over the temple ruins is a mask for the real intentions of the Arab world, which are to eventually take over Israel and absorb the most sophisticated infrastructure in the region outside Saudi Arabia and Kuwait into the extremist Arab bloc, which is over 20 years behind the times (especially Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan) due to the fact that the Western world doesn't like them, and doesn't sink infrastructure money too much into rogue states such as Iraq or Syria.

Israel represents the ability to get it quickly. However, I don't count out that army, EVER. :)

plool the reason they are is coz the soldiers are there - they don't care they spend every day getting stoned by her sons - no sympathy there.

The problem is now as the fighting escalates there is more sympathy in the Palestinian side for extreme groups that use the Palestinian cause as an excuse like hamas and Islamic jihad that want to blow Israel out of existence many for the reasons mbpark has listed. That’s not goanna happen - pure military power is pointless, the Israeli is one of the best armed and powerful in the world and are some of the best trained in fighting terrorism. The danger is of this being a war of attrition - continued terrorist attacks inside Israel - similar to the 1980s bomb nightmare in Britain by the IRA, countered by strong military retaliation in Palestinian controlled areas. Hopefully something will change before Arafat is deposed as such and chaos breaks out totally. I used to know a chick in Isreal who had really interesting views on this stuff but I haven’t had a chance to talk to her for ages, she’s the sister of my ex and we’re not really talking yet…

mbpark, you have a unique perspective amongst us here I think - do you think there should be a Palestinian state in the west bank and Gaza? More interestingly do you support the Israeli colonies that they continue to build there?

Palestinian State
 

Is it me, or does something always get screwed up when the UN decides it's going to make a state for a specific group of people. You've got Israel there, the Bosni-Herzegovina thing (I'm not sure about UN involvement there, but if my memory is any good, they had some sort of country-splitting involvement), and I'm sure a few others where something similar has happened. What makes you think, for one second, that it will be different if a Palestinian state on the West Bank happens. This has become a war of principle, the worst kind of war, because each side believes itself to be doing the work of some God or another. Not unlike the Catholic/Protestant fighting in Ireland, I don't think that half of these people realize what they're fighting for at all. They simply throw themselves into battle because they hate the other side because it has always been that way, and, unfortunately, it will be that way for at least one generation, probably 3 or 4, based on what i've seen earlier about the "training" (pronounced brAn-wa-shing) of children by both sides.

Why why why why why
 

They might be related to one or more of the fifteen people killed in Thursday's suicide bomber attack, at 2:00pm in a Jerusalem location of the Sbarro's pizza chain. We have Sbarro's here in San Francisco too. The location was selected, presumably because it would in all likelihood attract a younger clientele, as well as tourists. Six of those killed were children. One hundred and thirty people were injured. One American remains in critical condition.

I heard a report on NPR some time ago that I found distressing: The Muslims have suicide bomber camps, where parents send their children to learn to be productive members of the Jihad. The reporter talked to one child who was drawing pictures in crayon of the suicide bomber he would like to grow up to be- at the moment of explosion. He seemed completely unafraid about dying in the service of Allah.

It's difficult to take any kind of strong moral stance in war, except that war, as a whole, is bad.

Re: Palestinian State
 

Britain took it upon herself to create a Jewish state, and support the Zionist movement. In typical colonialist fashion, an amount of land that was mostly occupied by the British prior to the formation of a Jewish state was declared the Jewish homeland, and immigration was encouraged.

Of course, the fact that much of that land was already inhabited by some unwashed towel-headed barbarians was overlooked. They smell of camel dung and have no proper government, so who cares?

Naturally, Israel declared itself a state, and was instantly attacked by its neighbours; as it had plentiful foreign support, it survived the onslaught. Over the course of the next 30 years, it snagged and occupied a variety of regions surrounding it, line the Golan heights, the West bank, etc., extending its landmass many times over. None of that land was 'given' to Israel by the UN. They simply took it in conquest, although Israel was always the country being attacked. Presumably this is thought of as just retribution.

The people living in those occupied areas that Israel refuses to relinquish, and who are often being treated as nearly slave-like subjects (they may not travel whenver Israel feels like it, often can't go to work, have very high taxes imposed on them, have their houses demolished so Israeli settlers can build their own etc) probably don't feel it's very just, but then they are just stupid Arabs without a proper government, lobby, or US-sponsored nuclear weapons.

Israel has been on the receiving side of a lot of crap in the last fifty years, and that has led to a very firm stance on how to deal with its enemies. Unfortunately, everybody has become an enemy. The state of Israel is an artificial creation - NOT by the UN, but rather by British sponsorship. The UN wouldn't dream of suddenly sending in a couple of million people into an area already populated, and tell them to declare independence there. Don't blame the UN.

Apologies for the polemics. I have a lot of sympathy for both the Jewish and the Palestinian plight; unfortunately, that issue is about as clear-cut as Northern Ireland.

Xugumad

Re: Re: Palestinian State
 

You make some excellent points, Xug, but I think you're being a little hard on the British. Granted, they started the ball rolling with the Balfour Declaration in 1917:

• "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people - it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

but it was meant as a statement of principle, not a concrete proposal.

When the League of Nations saddled Britain with the Palestine Mandate in 1922, it was a necessary expedient due to the breakup of the Ottoman Empire in the aftermath of WWI. Somebody had to run the place, after all. I don't think the British had any intention of allowing the establishment of a Jewish (let alone Zionist) state in the area, and certainly not at the expense of the Muslims (and sprinkling of Christians) who were already there . Heck... they spent years fighting Jewish terrorists who were trying to do that very thing. Remember the King David Hotel bombing?

Viewed with 20/20 hindsight, it's easy to see that the British made a lot of mistakes while they were in charge. But I think they're just the latest in a series of occupying powers- stretching back to the Romans- who are sorry they ever heard of the damned place, and were glad to be rid of it. Victims of circumstance, if you will.

My $.02 :)

*correct me if I�fm wrong*
Apart from the standard issue Islamic Fundamentalists/extremists I thought it was control over Gaza and the west bank which Israel invaded in 1969 (or was it 67, my recent middle eastern history is pretty average) and has being to colonise ever since, not the existence of the state of Israel itself.

Gopher - religion always creates the messiest wars. Crusades, various extreme Muslim causes etc. It is also used as an excuse to kill allot of people - those "freedom fighters" in the Philippines come to mind.....Its a pity that Islam gets such a bad image - there is little in the koran to my knowledge that for instance supports total demolition of basic rights for women.

alphageek - the saying that comes to mind is "a good comramise leaves everyone infuriated" whcih is entirely true - jsut causes alot more problems with countries.

it was 1967, during the six day war. israel was attacked, but managed to win on all fronts. they took the sinai peninsula, golan heights, the gaza strip and the west bank. they gave the sinai peninsula back to egypt a while later. you can find more info at http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

frankly i think its just too damn bad for the palestinians. emigrate to other arab lands.

if i'm not mistaken, there was no such thing as a "palestinian" 100 years ago. they don't have a specific culture unique to them that sets them apart from other arabs. they're just arabs that happened to be in the area of the world that britain named palestine. might be wrong here though, but that's what i've heard.

i mean, arafat is an egyptian. anything wrong with this picture?

everyone got hostile and tried to attack the israelis. lives were lost, but land was gained... in that fact, it is remarkable. they overcame. spoils go to the victor, and the losers are just being cry-babies.

war is always bad... but the kind of terrorism the palestinian extremists are engaging in is LOW LOW LOW... specifically picking targets to maximize the amount of children dead? SHAME. but everyone is guilty in this affair unfortunatly... victims of circumstance perhaps but the cycle is not being broken. what can be done except sit back & watch?

gulf war II, coming to a theatre near yoooou.

That's why they call it terrorism...

I don't fault the palestinians at all for changing the rules of engagement to suit themselves. "All's fair in love and war" right? People have been breaking the rules in war for years and years. Targeting officers, guerrila warfare, salting fields. It's a dirty game, but what would you do if you couldn't compete any other way? Would you roll over? If the option was lose everything (and I think the palestinians believe that), I'd have to say the ends justify the means.

Clearly they believe quite strongly in what they are doing. You don't blow yourself up in the name of your god if you're not 100% confident you're going to some kind of afterlife. Divine justice and all that. They know they are right, but they feel frustrated and helpless...so they react any way they can.

And having said all that, I pretty much support israel 100%. the past is the past, I can't change that, but two wrong's don't make a right. They have to live together, they can do it in peace or at war, but palestine isn't going to see all of its demands met. it can't happen. One more thing, I've been all though israel, and be glad you don't have to live like that. I could tell stories for hours, but I'll just tell one. One evening I was walking down the beach in tel aviv. There is hotel after hotel down the coast, but some parts of the beach are packed while other parts are completely deserted. While I walked past a deserted portion, my israeli friend pointed out a sign in the water and said "do you know what that says?" I had no idea, he said "No swimming, mines" woah. Israeli army men with submachine guns at the mall or the bus stop, traffic stopped for 2 hours while they blow up a suspicious package, military check points...

Today's word is "compromise." As in, "Israel and the Palestinians will need to compromise, for neither will get all that they desire."

Palestinians will never get their country without toning down the rhetoric. Israel will have to learn to live with Palestinians and Arabs in their midst. Given that both seem to fight in the name of religion, they don't seem to act very religious.

I say that sooner or later there must be a civil war in Israel and other occupied territories. I hear you say.. a Jew on a Jew? Never!.. well sure the religious fascists and their sympathizers in Israel only abuse and murder Palestinians right now.. but when (now) they push their religious agenda on their (predominantly "Jewish") citizens.. who too will feel the burn....... *

You can only reason with these people up to a certain, limited point..

*(plus they feel the burn right now, what's with their relatives being blown up on weekly basis.. smart tactic.. kill non-religious nuts.. make them (as a group) think about the situation and what's more important for them.. mystical scraps of land they don't particularly care about or lives of their family members.)

Agh.. I got to get some sleep.. I might edit to clarify the post later.

That's the whole point. There was no palestinian state, just a lot of often nomadic settlers and arabs occupying that land. As they had no government but instead preferred their way of life, somebody simply took their land away and gave it to somebody else. Those other people then started arriving and pushed out the 'natives', often using extremely violent measures.

Palestinians are being wiped out the same way Native Americans were killed. Without global media coverage and the necessity of Israel to keep the US happy so they can get more tanks, planes, and nuclear weapons, they'd have wiped out all of the Palestinians long ago. Instead, they lead a stealth war on them - see also the slave-like treatment comment I made earlier.

What nationality were Washington, Jefferson, Adams? Oh, that's right. They had no country - they took it upon themselves to free their land from the oppression of someone who had no right to tell them what to do.

What a remarkably enlightened approach. National boundaries mean nothing, you can just grab whatever you need, all because the Britain/US axis decided to simply 'start' a state in the middle of a place where they had no business meddling with, and then provided those people with weapons and money.

You don't seem to understand: The Israelis had no business being there. None. Whatsoever. If somebody started a 'state' in my backyard, all of my neighbours and yours truly would be out there RIGHT NOW to kick him out. And no, it doesn't matter that Mr. Jackson down the street told him that my yard was a great place to put up a tent and gave him a weapon. Which he then used to shoot me with. DUH. And the fact that he shot me when I tried to kick him out WOULD STILL BE WRONG.

Welcome to Generalizations 101, students. Please pick a seat.
Come on. You should know that the violent extremists only make a relatively small portion of the Palestinian populace. The vast majority are people who would just like to live their lives without being 'detained' randomly, without being banned from traveling, without having all of their products and exports taxed highly to prevent them from making a living, without being spied upon and assassinated by the Mossad for daring to speak out against Israel, and without being kicked by children and teenagers in the middle of the street because you are about 70, female, and an Arab. LOW LOW LOW?

Yes, terrorism is LOW LOW LOW, but most Palestinians DO NOT ENGAGE IN IT. The worst 99% of Palestinians do is throw stones at well-armoured Israeli soldiers. Those soldiers then shoot and kill the kids who throw the stones. LOW LOW LOW? Ah, double standards.

Right. Sit back and watch the slaughter, whilst Russia etc. continue providing the Palestinians with weapons, and while the US happily continues shipping tanks, planes, and other amusing tools to Israel. Why exactly does the US do that with Israel, and nobody else? Why does more than half of US foreign aid go to Israel? Why does the US artificially keep the state of Israel alive?

Sure, sit back and watch. And whoever loses is a cry-baby. Jesus, do you even KNOW what you're talking about?

How melodramatic. I am sure the thousands of US soldiers suffering from Gulf War syndrome, and their occasionally deformed and crippled babies would feel differently. How many people had to die and suffer what were ultimately US oil and Israeli security interests?

If this misinformation and 'oh well shit happens' attitude continues, God help us all.

I wouldn't say that Israelis don't have to be there, for they consider it their homeland. Unfortunately, they're not the only ones who consider it home--look at the conquerors of Palestine over the years. I think it's reasonable to deduce that a lot of gentiles were originally born and grew up in Palestine over the hundreds and thousands of years.

100 years ago, there were few settled countries in that region--it was mostly occupied by the Turks. Now, the Middle East and North Africa are composed of many countries that were occupied by European colonial powers after WW1--and if I'm not mistaken, the people that live in these countries are considered Arab, with a few exceptions. What sets Moroccans apart from, say, Qatarians? I'm sure that while they are all Arabs, they have something that gives them a national identity.

There's no doubt that the Jewish people have suffered horrible atrocities at the hands of others throughout history. But given what has happened to them, certainly they can understand the anger and rage of the Palestinians, can't they?

Compromise is the only solution.
 

I think we can all agree to that compromise is necessary.

But what is the Israeli incentive to compromise? They have all the trump cards: 7 Billion (last I checked) per year in direct US subsidies, the most modern weaponry (including <I>stolen</I> nukes, and a guaranteed support base in the US (how many US legislators are Jewish? how many media outlets are Jewish-owned?).

The vaunted "peace process" is no more than a smokescreen thrown up by Zionist leaders to show the world "we are doing something" while continuing the creeping annexation of Palestinian property. The conflict is perfectly planned, not "out of control". Israel has no need for genocide when slavery is so profitable.

In order to get your population to support such atrocities, you merely have to teach them that they are "God's Chosen People (tm)" or the "Master Race (tm)" (take your pick).

To paraphrase Robert Anton Wilson, the mark of an effective conspiracy is that you've been conditioned to reflexively reject the idea of it.

This is why substances that enlighten the individual and erase social conditioning are among the most feared and repressed substances on earth. But I stray...

Thanks to all who participate in this forum - this is the most intelligent group of posters I've seen on the internet. Cheers to all <clink!>

wasn't the ottoman empire controlling that area of the world for a while? its not as if palestine was peaceful and doing alright before european intervention... being right in the fertile crescent it is a hot piece of property. who owns the right to any particular piece of land? the guy who has the biggest gun, apparently. it isn't something i agree with but that seems to be the way it is, non?

i don't feel that comparison is accurate... native americans were a thousand years behind the europeans and had nowhere to go. what do you think... should we give a giant chunk of north america back to the natives?

i don't think that would be such a bad idea for certain areas... up here in canada there is always a lot of talk about quebec seperatism. sometimes the point is brought up that the northern portion of the province is nearly entirely populated by cree. would they also be allowed to have their own nation state? quebec would not allow that, given the amount of natural resources that could be exploited in the region.

hey if i had a magic wand i'd go around granting land to whoever can live on it while remaining in harmony with their surroundings. i'd dump the bad americans and their lifestyle of rape & pillage into the ocean, or the depths of space.

yeah, and now what is america notorious for? oppression. telling other countries what to do, ruthlessly raping the earth, profit at any costs...

so is there some particular year in which boundaries should have been solidified? the entire area was fluid around the time of WWI and the fall of the ottomans if i'm not mistaken... i wouldn't sit here and say that what the brits/US folks did is RIGHT but that's the situation, and at this point, they've got the land. no one's going to uproot them now. israelis have been without a homeland for hundreds of years, and suddenly they inherited their old one. i'd be lying if i said i didn't respect the hebrew meme and its ability to remain true over the years.

i am not entirely without compassion... like i stated, it is a terrible situation for both sides. yes, violent extremists are not the majority... yet hate is taught as far back as in the womb. is it another case of the few ruining it for the many? i wonder if they'd be able to live in harmony without the religious aspects of the problem.

oh sorry, what -should- i be doing? go join the peace corps? protest israeli action in the area? deny the holocaust?

obviously US interests in israel are due to the strong jewish presence in that country... i don't think i need to explain the nature of that situation.

with respect to the cry-baby comment, i feel there is a certain validity to the situation... israel was created as a nation state... later it was invaded -- hostile military action on all fronts. not only did they defend their new land, but they pushed back the invaders into their own territory. when you begin a military engagement of that sort maybe you should think about your people living in the territories right near the contested lands. i think it was gracious enough of israel to give the sinai back. the rest -- too bad. decisions were made at a high level and those people had to live with the consequences.

that's the first i've heard of gulf war syndrome... my understanding is that the war was a lot tougher on the iraqi people, which is terribly unfortunate. i'm of the mind that it's about time that US got off its oil kick, so it is particularly bad that bush is in power now. oil is just another one of the elements of american crapocracy. oh well. can't change that right now either.

'oh well shit happens' is a better attitude for someone with his own problems on this side of the ocean who has absolutely no influence or power to change events or mold history. well, better than a frustrated bleeding-heart position that really solves little. if you have some magical thing a person can do that can ease the tension in the middle east, by all means, share it. the world would be better for it.

i'm no brilliant political analyst... i don't claim to be an expert on the issue. we're having a discussion -- i'm not trying to win favours or make people switch sides in some hypothetical battle of wits. honestly, if you know more about this issue, do more than simply negate what i speak of... state your opinion. i assume from your comments that you feel the israeli nationstate should simply dissolve and the jews should go back to wandering? please clarify..

I hope that's not the way it is - and if it becomes that way, we must stop it. We can't live in a world where national boundaries and populations can be redrawn at gunpoint because somebody's arsenal is better than yours.

That's why Wilhelm II's aspirations were fought. That's why Adolf Hitler's desires had to be beaten back. (even though western Oil interests dictated military action) That's why - ultimately - Saddam had to be restrained. That's why the US can't simply annex Canada, although it has the weapons and army to do so.

Yeah, World Peace is a distant hope - but we can't stand buy and nod sadly when armed conquest SUCCEEDS. We must stop it. At any cost. That's the whole concept of civilization, that's what sets us apart from animals. The biggest and most silver-haired gorilla will get the most fertile female, even if it means killing other males. Are we more than that?


Nomadic Palestinian settlers were, arguably, a thousand years behind the jewish settlers who arrived and soon received military support ranging from the most modern tanks to nuclear weapons. My comparison didn't claim that NAmerica should be given back to Native Americans. It just showed that the way 'the west was won' is somewhat similar to the way the Palestinians were pushed out. Besides, giving anything back to Native Americans apart from the few reservations that they have right now would be an outright admission of guilt, which many people simply aren't comfortable with. Clinton can feel guilty and sniff sadly, but most white Americans would rather worry about where to get the money for their SUV's gas needs.

And by the way - the reason why I brought up Washington etc. is because of the claim that Arafat is Egyptian (and thus by implication shouldn't be messing around with the Palestinians that much anyway). Washington, Jefferson etc. fought for the freedom and independence of a country that they THEMSELVES had to found. They weren't 'American', Arafat isn't 'Palestinian', all of them fight for what they perceive to be their homeland.


The BIG zionist immigration to what is now only a small part of Israel started AFTER World War TWO, not ONE. Israel declared independence in 1947. No Ottomans there. The situation was fluid as mud. The Balfour declaration was in 1917, yes, but many things happened around that time. To artificially create a Jewish state in the middle of a hostile Arab sea borders on megalomania on the side of the British. Not that anyone would accuse them of that, of course. Rule Britannia!

Doubtful. 'God's chosen people', as obnoxious as the term is, would still claim land that isn't theirs to take, and oppress those who want to kick them out. A lot is religious, yes, but the Israeli state still remains an artificial creation that wouldn't exist without $7 BILLION of US funding every year. And that's just the official, disclosed foreign aid. Nobody knows how much more is pumped into Israel, especially in illegitimate weapons aid.

Learn to read critically. Don't just watch TV news, read some independent media. Try reading some British news sources - ironically those are a lot more in-depth and critical than the US ones. I recommend www.indymedia.org www.worldnews.com and www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest

And again - you do not CREATE nation states. There was no nation. There was no state. There was an artificial transplant of Jewish people into an area of the world where they did not belong. Nobody there cared about what happened 2000 years ago, apart from the jewish interests in the countries that sponsored AND STILL SPONSOR that move. Israel didn't beat back any Arab onslaught - US weapons did. Now ask yourself why a 'good Christian' US would want to cause problems to Islamic countries. (especially 40-50 years ago) HMM.

Knowing the truth and telling more people about it will do a lot more than shrugging and turning your back. That's what this is all about.

No. I don't want Israel to stop existing - there are a LOT of people there who are completely innocent of any of the idiocy that has led to this mess.

I just want people to realize that Israel is being kept alive artificially by US interests. $7 billion at least, as stated earlier. Ever wonder why the US is now dipping into social security funds to try and stop the renewed deficit slide? Ever wonder how it's going to pay for Star Wars X? Ever wonder how many homeless people there are? Or how many are dying of AIDS and other fatal diseases because so many people shrug and say 'they should have had health insurance'? Do you have ANY clue how ridiculous it is to be accused of being a 'bleeding heart liberal' when you see people dying not just around you but thousands of miles across the planet just because of vested US interests and fucked-up lobbyist groups?

Without US aid, Israel would be wiped off the face of the planet in less than a decade. It would have never come into existence, and it's been kept alive for over half a century now. The formerly oppressed Jews have instituted a racist and authoritarian regime, oppressing the Palestinians in one of the most ironic tragedies of the last century.

I am not complaining about Israel. I don't dislike the Jews. I just wonder WHY all of the above is going on.

*straps on Kevlar fire suit and wades into the fray*

I seem to remember Jewish people have been round that area...oh.....3000 odd years...
[rant]
Gulf War syndrome. *blows his top* Fucking Americans, this is the same as Vietnam, wade into somewhere, get nasty, sue nasty weapons, give their own troops radioactive armor then when they come back and sue make front page over it. NEVER MIND THE PEOPLE STILL THERE. Want me to post some pics of Iraqi kids with cancers destroying their eyes? Or the astronomical cancer/leukemia rates, or the lack of food?

50,000 US soldiers died in Vietnam, 3 MILLION VIETNAMESE DIED and millions more have been born deformed, lost limbs to landmines not to mention emotional/mental damage.

[/rant]

dhamsaic thanks for that link - cleared things up for me a bit.

Seems to me that unless something is done *fast* this is never going to be solved.

a: People will refuse to compromise after a few more of these attacks and assassinations by BOTH sides.

b: A wise man once said about the Balkans trouble that the only way to solve it is to shoot all the grandmothers. Until you stop generation after generation being indoctrinated in hate (BOTH sides) this will continue to happen.

On one side I have to say arguing whether the state of Israel has a right to exist or not is pretty pointless - like arguing whether globalization should happen. It’s not WHETHER it happens, its how.

Well I’m not sure whether you've ever lived in total fear but personally I wouldn't like to be wondering whether the Palestinian standing over there has a few kilos of C4 and ball bearings strapped to him or not. It is the same tactic used by the IRA in the 80s, mass bombings across Brittan, it scared the living shit out of the British because it brought something that they read about in the newspaper and didn't give a fuck about into their lives in a very scary way.

Xugumad, while what you are saying has some merit you’re missing a few points, I mean you could say well gee, Mecca was pretty important a few thousand years ago, fuck the fact it’s still holy they don't need that bit of land. That area is holy to the Jews, don’t overlook that. As well as that Israel is no struggling on-the-brink-of-poverty state, while they work closely with the US, and sure, get some cash, a:7billion is reality is not that much, look at the size of the us budget, in TRILLIONS, get the picture? Israel is a world leader in high tech development, where do you think ICQ came from? A new type of metal press that takes up 1/10th of the space, much highly advanced military hardware of their own all which they export, and this is just a small sample.


That I have to agree with though.

Give back the west bank and Gaza to the Palestinians and share control of Jerusalem and stop killing. Even the fanatics would die down without public support; the majority of Palestinians just want to live their lives in peace.

Yes there are some flaws in this post – I know some of you addressed issues I pointed out but I’m in a hurry and just *couldn’t* resist

First off, I have to disagree with the statement--Native Americans were actually rather advanced. I'm not sure whether they had guns though, which would have made a difference I think.

And for the record, you're damned right that America should give some of the land back to the Natives...for my piece, I'd like a little swath in Oklahoma, in Ozark country. ;)

Seriously though, Natives have been fortunate enough to get SOME concessions from the US, particularly the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

Quote:

i don't think that would be such a bad idea for certain areas... up here in canada there is always a lot of talk about quebec seperatism. sometimes the point is brought up that the northern portion of the province is nearly entirely populated by cree. would they also be allowed to have their own nation state? quebec would not allow that, given the amount of natural resources that could be exploited in the region.

But Canada itself carved off part of the NW Territories for the Inuit in the form of Nunavut. Overall, there are WAY too many issues for the Quebecois to ever separate from Canada.

Quote:

with respect to the cry-baby comment, i feel there is a certain validity to the situation... israel was created as a nation state... later it was invaded -- hostile military action on all fronts. not only did they defend their new land, but they pushed back the invaders into their own territory. when you begin a military engagement of that sort maybe you should think about your people living in the territories right near the contested lands. i think it was gracious enough of israel to give the sinai back. the rest -- too bad. decisions were made at a high level and those people had to live with the consequences.

I'm not so sure of that...I can remember as a young child that Israel had much more support from the US than they do now. Sadat and Begin opened the door. The PLO has become more diplomatic. We see a lot more of the entire tragedy than we did 10 years ago, thanks to more news programming and the internet. In addition, we witnessed the crumbling of Yugoslavia over ethnic interests, which I think has highlighted the situation in the Middle East even more.

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that's the first i've heard of gulf war syndrome... my understanding is that the war was a lot tougher on the iraqi people, which is terribly unfortunate. i'm of the mind that it's about time that US got off its oil kick, so it is particularly bad that bush is in power now. oil is just another one of the elements of american crapocracy. oh well. can't change that right now either.

I don't doubt that UN sanctions are hurting innocent Iraqis, but it doesn't help that they have a village idiot running the country. Given that access to Iraq is limited, I wonder how many Iraqis really support Hussein.

It's not just the US that needs oil either, although we are the greediest when it comes to want. I don't understand how a country that makes its own oil (and even has oil rigs on the grounds of the Oklahoma State Capitol) has to use so much from everybody else. *gives evil eye towards SUV drivers* I can understand those with cars from the 70s and early 80s...nobody knew better then, and some people can't afford anything better. But this push for bigger is better again...*rolls his eyes* Jesus, do you really NEED that much vehicle?!

Continuation of my original post in this thread
 

One more important point.. why I think civil war will come to Israel.

a) U.S. aid will dwindle/dry-up at some near point in future. Why? Well I think the more the spotlight shines on Israel's crimes against humanity.. more U.S. politicians will be uneasy signing on to aid packages.
b) The ultra-religious Jews in Israel do not have to work by law if they are considered a sort of life-time student (of Torah, etc.) and are on a sort of welfare. Let's face facts.. they do not participate in "family planning" at all and many couples have >5 children. Now compare that to your (more or less) secular Jewish couple who have none or 1 or 2 children. Now draw a chart of the ratio of working people to non-working ones.

How (without expanding U.S. aid, not even reducing..) can the %-wise shrinking working population support %-wise growing welfare one ?

Another point to consider.. immigration of Jews from former USSR and North African region is (has?) drying up. So less cheap (and many times qualified) workhorses! They (will) need Palestinian labor to sustain the welfare coffers!

Heh, as I live just across the river in Arkansas (read as Oklahoma Lite) I can tell you there is a small piece, the local Amercian Indians I work with call it "The Mountain". Though from the stories they tell me I have no intention of ever visiting...



Okay, this is mostly hearsay but... Oil cost's more to ptoduce here than it does to import. It's another case of being able to get money from the Gov for not producing as much as you can. In this area where you meet actuall oil field workers it's common knowledge that they drill and cap oil wells constantly. Again this is heatsay but I've heard that gas prices would have to hit two bucks a gallon to make it truly profitable. Also remember that while Bush has ALOT of money in oil, so did Gore. Anybody know what SOL means? I don't see the U.S. moving away from oil anytime soon.

I'm actually amazed at how contained things still are right now. I mean if this kind of rampant killing on both sides hasn't already started an open war then what will? Honestly, how long can things go on before the wholesale "Kill every one of them you see" begins?

Good points, Whit.

If the US raised it mandatory fuel economy standards, then maybe we COULD produce our own oil and keep it cheap. Did they not just pass over the standards for this year? Not to mention, you would have to pay the Americans Union wages to produce the oil.

I can proudly say that my little putt-putt (Geo Metro) contributes to gas bliss in the United States. :)

I think the only reason things have not gone into full-scale war in the Middle East is BECAUSE of the United States. The US gives a ton in aid to Israel, but the US has been the one to extend the olive branch to Israel and the PLO. I don't think it would be in Israel's best interest to push things too much further.

world peace
 

I can't agree...we are not the police of the world. And when we act like it, the rest of the world sees us as arrogent and patronizing. No matter our intentions, we need to leave some matters up to the parties involved. We've got plenty of problems right here at home that need more attention that we can give. Until our strongest allies come calling, our foreign policy should be one of isolationism.

Why Israeli murders and Palestinian suicide bombings make sense....



http://slate.msn.com/HeyWait/01-08-17/HeyWait.asp



(yeah, I thought it was a pretty compelling headline, too....)

It's actually quite a good article, and worth a read. May not be the whole truth, but the attempt to justify (or at least explain) the psychology is nice.

Re: world peace
 

As a whole, that is impossible in our current world. We tried to do that during the early years of World War I only to have to come in and clean up. The US, selfish as it may be, needs to be the major player in the world. At the same time, the US must realize that there are other, rather powerful countries in the world other than itself. No, we can't play world police, that's what the UN is for. But given that we have the world's 3rd largest population, and are the world's most well-off population, it is almost a given that we are going to be a main power, if not the main power.

At the same time, there is one body that can keep the US in line--the Security Council. Russia and China usually align on one side, the US and the UK on the other, and France...it just whines. ;) It's not much, but it IS a limiter.

Re: world peace
 

THe rest of the world does cozof the way you tend to do it - let look at recent history.

Koyoto - Screw you all we care more about the wealth of a few than the abiality of all to be able to breathe.

ABM Treaty - Were so worreid about keeping our compaign donaters happy we're gonan scrap a fundamental document ot ending the cold war over it! All hail the gods of the national economy.

International court - Were going to try and hold the United Nations to ransom until you make us exempt to a cornerstone of globalisation because we don't like it and its not primarily designed to suit our interests.

If you tell the rest of the world to go fuck themslves, what do you expect. until the US learns that they can't bully everyone else, learn to be PART of a global police force, not a global bully..

This issue itself is not a morally based one for the US, Isreal is thier base in the MIddle east, and a strong partner in weapons develiopment and testing.

Policies of "splendid isolation" that britan pursued at the turn of the centuary did noone any good, and iwll be worse in a era of global interaction.

Going a much different direction with this: scientists have now proven that Israelis and Palestinians come from identical genetic stock about 7800 years ago.

I dunno whether that means anything to anyone, but there it is.

whirled peas
 

jag, I honestly believe that those policy decisions that you pointed out are a matter of US cockiness. I think this administration and the last have the attitude of "We know best, trust us, we're America" and our current lack of involvement of those endevours is the US saying, "those treaties are because you are the offenders, not us, *scoff* WE are the United States of America, you can trust us to handle these issues on our own, the imortant thing is that you're following these rules we set out." It's arrogance.

I don't think the US "bullies", because the intentions are good ones, but that doesn't make the actions right. Quite the opposite actually. And forcing things through the united nations REALLY looks like bullying though.

I believe the US should stop all foriegn aid, resign from the security council, and interfere in international affairs only when requested to by our strongest allies and/or the united nations. Biggest and strongest, so what? A benevelent dictator is STILL a dictator.

I'll add that I think the ABM treaty is an artifact and doesn't have a lot of application in today's world, but that's a completely different argument, and it doesn't invalidate your point that the US's handling of that issue was cocky and arrogent.

That got long
dynamo

It's not like this is anything new
 

I'm not -too- sure how long people have been fighting over the Middle East but it's at least a millennium. Jerusalem has been fought over for longer than that.

So - with that in mind how is it that -anybody- thinks the problem is solvable now? Citizens, who want peace as long as war isn't more profitable, of the last thousand years weren't any dumber than today's citizens. The inhabitants themselves are the ones who have to make peace happen if it's going to. So far (and a thousand years is some bunch of time) it ain't.

All "civilization" has done is given heavier weapons to both sides. It takes longer for the pot to boil but when it does it will throw the soup farther.

Cute. Tell that to a North American Indian. Tell it to a Hawaiian islander. Tell it to an Ainu. Civilization, and thus barbarism, is very much in the eye of the beholder.

What should Be Done Now? Simple. Seal the borders. Leave. Call in a year or so and see what happened. If the people had any sense they'd get rid of their "leaders", and then they'd have an even chance of learning to get along. It's no solution to the 'problem' but it's better than having the fighting and a bunch of international angst too.

perhaps it has more to do with perception of conflict -- wars today are fought on the economic turf. the US doesnt go take countries over because they can make a fortune off them through trading overhyped american goods, services, and entertainment for various things they need or want. if i'm not mistaken, america has the policy of going into small countries and intervening in local politics if it looks as if they would close their borders and stop trade. wasnt that what nicaragua was all about? but as i say, if i'm mistaken, let me know. i'm not the most knowledgeable about historic minutae.

the team is only as good as its worst player, perhaps? yes i'd say that the human race collectively acts as well as gorillas even in modern times. humans have to be able to respect themselves, others, and most importantly, where they live... but that isn't happening and an epiphany isn't likely. so one has to work within the framework of what IS.

off course!

agreement here. current generations think of the greenhouse effect and figure that it is the problem for future generations to solve... then the issue with the natives, well that's not our fault - blame someone generations back! something fishy...

alright, gotcha. i see your point here too.

so in hindsight we can say that it wasn't the brightest thing perhaps, but what's done is done, right?

so you're saying that israel is an american foothold in the middle east?

i don't watch a bit of TV... my news comes out of wherever... a lil CNN [which i always mistrust], some from the star here in toronto, a bit from the BBC.

oil? i don't know what american concerns were 40-50 years ago...

trust is subjective in this case.

it sounds like that's how the world works. i hardly accept that - the events of my life have given me a healthy mistrust for authoitah... but i can't do anything about it right now, aside from trying to get people to turn off their televisions.

so are you implying that the israelis are yet another pawn in some dastardly american affairs? pokin a stick into the hornets nest, as such?

i think they'd still be around in 10 years.. they are a strong people. we've given up natural selection to deal with another kind...

i don't think we agree so much... i support israel to the point where they unnecessarily persecute palestinians.. and i abhor the sort of harmful generalizations that develop on both sides... and i don't like american foreign policy much... hmm in fact i might have a troublesome time cohesively explaining why i support israel.

but the search for truth is noble... keep it up.