Hero or Greedy American?
 

Poster girl for America's bullshit
 

We all need a blond haired blue eyed "hero" to get all emotional over. If not, how would the american cattle keep finding reasons to believe in this action? From what I understand, she was turned down at evil wal-mart, so she joined the military.

I for one cannot find a speck of spite, sitting here on my ass in great comfort while others take such risks on my behalf.

on your behalf???? How so?

She was injured while in the service of the country of which I'm a citizen.

that's a pretty vague and complacent standpoint.

Yeah, she did serve for the country, but there's such an arrogance about her attitude. Her lack of modesty is definitely unattractive. She's profitting from her misfortune (bravery?), which is okay since it's a harrowing tale - but she's made no effort whatsoever to address the public as to why she agreed to the book/movie, and so soon after her rescue. It's mostly public perception, but I don't find her very respectable, especially if I'm supposed to view her as a heroine.

How do you mean his comment is vague and complacent? I have a friend who's been activated and is heading to the Gulf, and my niece is a Blackhawk pilot hading to Korea. I imagine that she's going to be re-routed. :( Our own Tobiasly is there on the ground in Iraq right now.

We're in the damn country, right or wrong we've toppled the government there. I'm hoping that Bush has some kind of diplomatic rabbit he can pull out of his ass, and that Tobiasly, my friend, and my niece can help get us out.

This was about Lynch, wasn't it? Yeah. Poster child all the way. I don't think anyone will ever know, but I don't think it's beyond her to lie about her experience.

I've been meaning to start a thread about Lynch and her comrades, but I haven't got it together yet. I believe she is a hero, because:

1. Even though I don't support wars in general (and especially not this one), I have a great deal of respect and admiration for those who put their lives on the line for this country. And she really has been through hell.

2. And this is a big one, Jessica Lynch is now taking on the US government. It was reported last week that she made statements to Diane Sawyer that she feels her story was misrepresented by the US Military for propagandistic purposes (WHAT??? No! You don't say!) and that this was wrong. (This interview will be on Prime Time Live tomorrow night.)

As far as the rape question goes, I don't know why her (US) doctors would lie about her being raped (remember, she never said she was raped. If it happened, she does not remember it.) Also, nobody knows whether her bones were broken in the humvee accident, or if her captors broke her bones, possibly after they raped her. She hasn't made any statement about the alleged rape other than telling Diane Sawyer that it's a painful thought. Basically, it's Iraqi doctors' word vs. our doctors.

I got the impression she's pretty meek. If the writer. Rick Bragg (what a name) took liberties with the story, I doubt if she would buck him.

It's excellent that you're an expert on the subject! Please provide the evidence that led you to the conclusion that it's not "beyond her to lie about her experience". I understand that you were simply posting an opinion; I'd just like to know what makes you think she might be a liar. 'Cause I think that you really have no reason whatsoever to believe that other than your suspicions - in which case, I don't think it's beyond you to be a child molestor.

Re: Hero or Greedy American?
 

I don't know that she's a hero, but I do know one thing: it takes a hell of a lot more guts to even end up in Iraq than it does to sit in your armchair and speculate, to criticize from afar. Is she a hero? I don't know. But I doubt the word could be twisted in such a manner to make it apply to you folks.

What the fuck does she owe us again? I just checked and I came up with <b>nothing</b>.

You've made no effort whatsoever to address the public regarding concerns you may enjoy scat play. Whether or not you do is <b>your own fucking business</b>. Just like her decisions are hers. I don't imagine you'd enjoy people picking over your life and questioning every decision you made, so why does she deserve any different?

Why is everyone picking on this poor woman?

She was terribly injured in service to our country (i.e., both our sorry asses) and the Pentagon and the media decided to "manufacture" a hero. She does NOT impress me as a willing participant and has publicly contradicted Army accounts of the battle. Do you know how much GUTS it takes to publicly disagree with the Army?!?!?

Jessica is a hero - she suffered terribly for her country and she is debunking lies left and right. Nuff said.

The more I think about it, and the more I read about it, the more I think she probably wasn't raped. But this has nothing to do with her. She is not running around yelling, "I was raped! I was raped!"

All she has said about the Iraqi hospital, is that she thinks they treated her well. She says a nurse there used to sing to her. Though the Iraqi lawyer whose actions led to her rescue said he saw her slapped, she says she does not remember being slapped.

I also heard there was a story in the British media that the hospital had tried to turn her over to the US first, but the US military said, "No. Wait 'til tomorrow." (I presume they were waiting for the camera equipment.)

At this time, the Iraqi doctors seem more credible to me than the US Military doctors, because the military has already repeatedly lied and distorted what happened to Private Lynch. Luckily, there are people trying to tell the truth. And Jessica Lynch is one of them.

That's about all you understood. What the hell crawled up your ass? I simply stated that she could be lying. I don't know. I'm glad to see she wasn't another statistic.

Forget about the Brit media: the BBC alleged all kinds of things about the rescue, including a bunch of things that couldn't possibly be true and were later proven wrong, such as the notion that US Special Forces were shooting blanks in the operation.

And I simply stated you could be a child molestor.

A star, whether she likes it or not.
 

Re: Re: Hero or Greedy American?
 

To me I say "GREEDY AMERICAN" just trying to get on TV like the rest of them. No hero at all.

Re: Re: Re: Hero or Greedy American?
 

But you didn't.

No it's not. You made that abundantly clear when you questioned whether or not she was a "Greedy American". Such a question does not show respect.

WOAH, YOU REALLY TOOK IT TO ME!

Heroes don't sit back and question whether or not someone who still can't walk due to injuries sustained in the service of their country is a "Greedy American".

I stand by my original analysis that the word couldn't be perverted enough to make it accurately describe those that would sit back and say such things.

<i>"We must recognise that we have a great inheritance in our possession, which represents the prolonged achievement of the centuries; that there is not one of our simple uncounted rights today for which better men than we are have not died on the scaffold or the battlefield. We have not only a great treasure; we have a great cause. Are we taking every measure within our power to defend that cause?"</i>

Sigh...

Look if you want to bitch and moan and analyze "The Fake Hero's of Our Century" why don't you look at sports stars?

Come one, I'm seeing magazines with front covers like "Strugle of Kobe Bryant" and commentary from people "He was my hero, my role model. I don't believe he could've ever done these things!"


Hero or not, she deserves the fame and respect far more than most "heros" of today. Who cares if she was raped or not? I don't know about you but I'd be pretty upset if I were to find myself battered and broken boned in an Iraqi hospital in one of the hotspots. Hero? Maybe not, but certainly worthy of some respect.

Agreed, FnF. Certainly worthy of respect.

But to me, her service to our country does not instantly make her a hero.

If you consider a hero to be one that survived a horrific situation that nearly kills them, then yes, she is a hero. And using that definition, so am I. So are any of us that have had a brush with death and lived.

It comes down to your definition of hero. Is a hero someone that saves someones life? To me, yes. Firemen, Policemen, Joe Guy on the street that puts his life in danger to save another. That is a hero.

And while PFC Lynch deserves respect and gratitude for serving her country in time of war, and, I believe, qualifies for the purple heart (being wounded in wartime), that does not automatically define her as a hero. Courageous, brave, survivor, yes.

The only fact we know for sure is that she survived a terrible thing. Something no one should have to go through. But a hero, to me, means more than that.

So to some, like dave, she could be a hero. And that's fine. It seems his definition of hero is different than mine.

And by the way....respect does not mean above question.



Edit: tried to clarify my thoughts a little more.

I don't think she's a hero, per se. I just think she deserves more than having her name dragged through the mud.

(To clarify: your original question is "Hero or Greedy American?" It is not "Is she one of these two things?" - it is "She is either one or the other - which is it?" Your standpoint is that she is not a hero, and so the insinuation is that she is a greedy American.

I disagree with this viewpoint because she hasn't been hawking her story to the world. The "hero" figure is a creation of the military and the media. Her involvement in the whole ordeal was simply being the person upon whom the image was projected.

I don't look at her as a hero, but I surely don't look at her as a "Greedy American" either. The notion that the latter is an accurate description is baseless when facts are considered.

She's just starting her recovery process, one that will take a long time. The possibility of her being raped will put a question in her head that will poke and prod her for the rest of her life. She deserves a little more than namecalling.)

We care about their opinion?

Greedy American? Good Hell. A greedy person would be milking sympathy from this experience for all it was worth, and exaggerating her own bravery. She is doing the exact opposite... to the point that she is taking the US military to task for exaggerating her heroism. This shows incredible strength of character, much more than your average person. And despite this, you suggest that she may just be a "Greedy American." What has she done that is worthy of a "hero" label?

1) She joined the US military, knowingly placing her life and safety in potential danger for the sake of her country (and therefore, indirectly, for you).

2) She is telling the truth where it would be much easier and more self-serving to quietly allow the lies to be left undisturbed.

I suggest that she IS a hero, if only in her strength character. A hero isn't always someone who laughs at the face of danger, sometimes it's just someone brave enough to make the difficult chioices, like telling your country the truth when lies are more convenient.

In contrast, you haven't even admitted that you're an ass for questioning her character despite her incredible display of moral conviction.

I know this was a controversy not highlighted by too many news sources. I won't comment; decide for yourself.


Lynch informant makes first trip to West Virginia

By BRETT DUNLAP

CHARLESTON - When Mohammed Odeh al-Rehaief first saw Jessica Lynch in an Iraqi hospital, he did not see an enemy soldier or an invader. He saw ''a child of God'' who needed his help.

The Iraqi lawyer, whose information helped lead U.S. soldiers to rescue the captured Wirt County resident, was in Charleston Friday during his first trip to the Mountain State to see the area where Lynch was from. He is scheduled to visit Wirt County Monday.

(AP on day of visit)

Al-Rehaief, his wife and young daughter wrapped up a four-day stay in West Virginia on Monday with a trip to Wirt County that included a stop at the Palestine Post Office, where a peace garden was planted in his honor last spring. ...

Al-Rehaief was given a plastic-wrapped commemorative envelope with a Purple Heart stamp issued earlier this year by the U.S. Postal Service. Similar envelopes, with the stamp's cancellation saying, "Jessica Lynch Station, Palestine, WV," were sold during Lynch's homecoming in July.

He also was given a souvenir crock and a jar of homemade apple butter. ...

Al-Rehaief next visited the high school, Lynch's alma mater, where he was named an honorary West Virginian. However, al-Rehaief did not meet with Lynch during the trip. [!]

"I hope to meet her soon, but to meet you is enough for me," he told the crowd.

The Lynch family's attorney, Stephen Goodwin, said Friday that the 20-year-old former Army supply clerk was too busy to meet with al-Rehaief because she is still going to rehabilitation five days a week and is dealing with commitments related to her book's upcoming release.

Keep in mind the visit happened Oct. 24.

I agree wholeheartedly.
Yes, but there is a distinct difference between questioning someone privately, and questioning them publicly. You have publicly suggested that this person, who has shown incredible strength of character, is motivated only by greed. You then offered only ambiguous commentary on your own views. Such questioning is akin to outright accusation, and if you don't appreciate that, then you don't quite grasp some important concepts of communication.

This is true in the same manner that I would be an ass if I asked "Was Hitler evil, or just a misunderstood savior?" Not to the same degree, obviously, but I exaggerate to illustrate the point. Publicly posing a question contrary to the common view suggests that I hold that contrary opinion, unless of course I state otherwise. Hitler was evil, and publicly suggesting otherwise would make me an ass. Jessica Lynch is not behaving like a greedy person, and suggesting otherwise makes you an ass.

For the record, I appreciate the irony in the fact that I am being an ass while suggesting that you are an ass. But that doesn't make me wrong.

...Also for the record, I acknowledge that it is your right to hold opinions that cause me to think you are being an ass. There's obviously no absolute right or wrong here.

I don't hate her. But I do hate celebrities. Someone pointed out something about sports stars them being fake and all that yeah thats true. I don't see the point of her name being EVERY WHERE! Ok she was POW leave it alone. If they made a story about every POW that would take forever. I think they did it just because shes a girl.

Not a hero, not greedy, just a victim trying to get something out of a very raw deal.

What you think of her makes every bit of difference to the discussion. Discussion is largely about sharing opinions. If all we did was toss around facts and no opinions, discussions would be about as interesting as Barry Manilow on Valium.
If you re-read my original post, you might note that the fact that I thought you were being an ass was very much a seondary point to the rest of the comment. It just so happens that you chose to respond only to that secondary point. You never responded to the main thrust of my post. Besides, it is an opinion, and opinions definitely contribute to the discussion. I shared the Ass comment as a device to indicate how powerfully I disagreed with the stance which it appeared that you were taking.

Incidentally, I don't think that you, as a person, are an ass; but in suggesting what you did, your behavior was ass-like (in my opinion). I know from previous posts you've made that you are thoughful and intelligent, but I also know that everyone is capable of being an ass from time to time, even if by accident. I demonstrate this ability frequently.

And white, and anglo, and pretty.

Look at what happened to her buddies Lori Piestewa and Shoshana Johnson.

She may be taking the military to task, but is she taking NBC to task? She can't make time to visit the guy that ultimately was responsible for saving her life because she has commitments to her book? Please. I don't see strength of character there.


While I appreciate that she joined the military, and that she put her ass on the line for her country (and indirectly me), that does not automatically equal hero.
The guy that threw a grenade into his CO's tent was in the military, too. Is he a hero?
That bacon from the other thread...he was in the military too. That make him a hero?
Dubya was in the military. That make him a hero?
My exhusband has been in the military for damn near 20 years. That make him a hero?
My nephew is in the Marines and was in one of the units that entered Baghdad that day. He was in one of the units that Oliver North was embedded in. Is my nephew a hero?

No.


The best she can come up with is "I don't remember." She's not out there on CNN saying, "You know Bill, I'm not a hero, and to be honest, I don't want the attention. I want to go home, do my physical therapy, walk again, and live the rest of my life in peace in West Virginia. I'm no different than any other man or woman that was over there."

If she was doing that, I'd have no problems with her. But she's not. She's busy with her new book. The one, presumably, that says she was raped. When all the doctors say she wasn't. She has a lawyer. Why isn't she issuing statements through him? Why isn't she prosecuting the jerk that said she was raped? She isn't out there defending her ...I don't know what to call it... non-hero-ness. Where's the strength in character in that? To stand up and say to the world, "I'm not a hero. I wasn't raped. I wish this would all end." THAT is character. But she's not doing that. Bet she'll be at the book signing, tho.

Look. I respect she got injured in a war waged by our country. She may not be a Greedy American, I'm still not convinced. But to me, she CERTAINLY isn't a hero.

Edit: I'm interested in her statements to Diane Sawyer. We'll see what she says and what kind of character she shows. I'd sincerely like to be able to say, "PFC Lynch is not taking advantage of her horrible ordeal." I really would.

What if she, gasp, <b>can't fucking remember?</b> I love all you people that second guess everyone to sound all fucking smart. Look, take a fucking hike. You and a few other assholes have next to nothing good to say, while slinging allegations that she's a liar or that "I don't remember" isn't good enough. Doctors have explained that the chances of her remembering are not very good, and that's not good enough for you. Okay. It was fun having you. Find another board.

Again, I fail to see how she's obligated to do <b>any</b> of this.

Not <b>all</b> the doctors. Some doctors. That weren't looking for signs of sexual abuse. They can't possibly know what did or did not happen to her before she got there. I have no idea whether or not she was raped; I just know that, right now, it's impossible to say either way. In other words, stuff it.

Why dontcha try reading some time? She's said that she doesn't consider herself a hero, that other people who have risked their lives are the actual heroes. She can't say for sure whether or not she was raped, so why the fuck would she say that she wasn't? She hasn't been out there saying "I was raped" either. Are you fucking retarded? Do you read anything other than the bullshit that other retards are spewing?

What? This is practically ALL she is saying. Did you miss the headlines that said, "Jessica Lynch: I Am Not A Hero"?

She says she's not a hero, she didn't shoot or kill or even fight.

"My weapon did jam and I did not shoot, not a round, nothing," Lynch tells Sawyer. "I'm not about to take credit for ... something that I didn't do. But that may have been Lori (Piestewa) that fought fiercely till her death. You know, that may have been her. But that wasn't me, and I'm not taking credit for it.''

And meanwhile her
gung-ho brother is being shipped out, but she says:

Your argument intentionally overlooks some very important details:

1) I wouldn't say that he ultimately saved her life... the article says "The Iraqi lawyer, whose information helped lead U.S. soldiers to rescue the captured Wirt County resident..." (emphasis mine). So, he told somebody that she was there, and that information helped lead US soldiers to her. Helpful? Yes. Ultimately responsible for saving her life? No. That honor goes to the soldiers who actually went in and got her out.
2) It's not only her book commitments, but her 5-days-a-week physical therapy. So the woman doesn't use some of her very limited free time to meet with an Iraqi citizen? Gasp!
Well, you have a point. Joining the military isn't going to automatically make anyone a hero. But if that person was already a decent, honest person, and that person put herself in physical danger and risked her life for her country, it makes her something closer to a hero than most of the population, probably including you.
Untrue. She has stated many times that the stories of her fighting heroically just before her capture are completely unfounded. She is spreading the truth of her story in the face of lies and propaganda.
The only doctors saying she wasn't raped are Iraqi doctors, who also admit that they weren't looking for evidence of rape.

I wonder, what must a person do before they may have the honor of being considered a hero to you? Save a life? She was there in Iraq trying to save many lives. Tell the truth? She does so where most people would lack the moral conviction to do the same.

NOTE: I was still typing this when dave posted his stuff.

Wow. That speaks volumes.

And if you'd said something like "whether she was raped has no relevance to whether or not she is a hero," it wouldn't bother me. But to say that you don't give a rat's ass whether it happened to her... that is cold.

...besides, I don't think anybody here suggested that being raped has anything to do with her heroism. The heroic part is that she has medical evidence that says she was raped, but instead of trying to use that evidence for personal gain, she is honestly saying that she remembers no such thing.

True.

I don't have a set of predefined notions what a hero is. It's not like I go down a checklist. But yes, to me, a person that saves lives or even one life is a hero of sorts. Telling the truth does not make you a hero. It makes you honest.

I'm not saying she's not a good person. All I'm saying is to me she is not a hero. Again, I don't know if she's a greedy american or not. But to me, she's not a hero. Why is that so hard to accept? I'm not saying in ANY way that I am better than her. I'm not saying she's not brave. I'm not saying she's not courageous. I'm not calling her a liar. I'm not saying she fronting. From what I have seen with my own eyes, the stories that I have read (and apperantly it's not all of them), I'm not convinced she is not profiting from her misfortune. And by the way, that's not to make a judgement on whether that is right or wrong. Simply my opinion at this time. Again, I'm open to changing my ideas on this. It's just an opinion that with

REASONABLE

arguement (and less personal attacks) is open to change. Open mind, people. Keep an open mind.

I agree completely. And so this thread missing the point. Lynch is simply the central topic of something far larger. They lied. The same top political leaders who lied about so many other things also lied about Jessica Lynch. That is the most important point.

Who did the lying? Why did they lie? They knew they were lying because they did not have the facts to say what they did. That is the Jessica Lynch story. They lied.

They disparaged Jessica Lynch. Made her into something she was not. I hope she makes a $million. She deserves it because of what top government officials did. But here is the real story. We are not blaming anyone who did the lying. They are not being punished as demonstrated by approve poll numbers. IOW we too are conspriing to protect the guilty by worrying only about the symptom - Jessica Lynch. Her character is irrelevant. What happened to her is only important as far as who in top government intentionally lied.

The real story about Jessic Lynch is the lying that has become standard procedure among the highest officials. Whether she meets someone credited with her rescue is silly. What a liar would have us argue about so that we forget one thing - they lied. Stick to important facts - not a human interest story with is broadcast for trivial minds. Important fact is they lied. Only the lies are important.

Yours being a stunning example. No, really. I was being serious. Really. No, I'm not kidding. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Yes. Just like yours. Honestly. For real. I swear. Yes, I'm telling the truth. No, I'm smiling because I thought of something funny. It was a duck. Quacking. Yes. But seriously. Yours is a stunning example of said trait. Really.

True. I'm a very honest person myself (honest!). It makes me very uncomfortable to lie, so I don't do it. And that does not make me a hero.

But frankly, most "honest" people are probably too weak to be as honest as she has been under the circumstances. If she weren't so vocal about getting the truth out there, the world would still believe that she was captured in a heroic, blazing firefight, defending her fellow soldiers to her last bullet. Enough to make her a hero by itself? Perhaps not... but a moving display of honesty it is.

I like to think that I'd be strong enough to be so honest under such cirmstances, I certainly hope so... but no one can really know until they are in the moment.
But, you did imply that she was a liar, and fronting:
And with that, you patronizingly imply that all of the statements contrary to yours are unreasonable. Open mind indeed.

I've stated it many times before, but apparently certain people have reading comprehension issues (don't they hold you back for that?). So here goes, one more time...

I'm not busting a vessel. I never get un-calm. The only time my heartrate rises when reading the Cellar is when I start laughing at the utterly ridiculous things that roll off the fingers of some of our regulars. You're projecting your own excitement onto me. You assume that since you get furious and incensed over these things, I must too. I've got many people that frequent this place that are around me when I write, and they can tell you, this never happens.

What I <b>am</b> guilty of, however, is calling out an imbecile when I see one trying to act smart.