9/11 Extra: Planes Crash Into World Trade Center
 

I was sitting here doing my normal morning routine (cellar, slashdot, cnn, msnbc) and when I hit CNN, I saw, to my amazement, that a plane had crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center. I immediately went upstairs and watched the coverage on CNN and CBS. As I was watching, a second plane hit the second World Trade Center tower. Live. Right before my eyes.

I wouldn't normally post IotD's right in a row, but I think this fits in and it's gonna get posted anyway. So... here's a picture of the carnage. I got it before all the news sites went down (and they are - the only thing that's functioning at all this moment is slashdot), so it's not both Towers - just after the first explosion. Add your own pictures and discuss below.

**** I just heard on the radio **** - they're talking about a plane hitting the Pentagon now. I don't know if this is true or not, but be looking for information. Add it below, with pictures.

http://www.digipulse.org/images/wtc_first.jpg

wow...
 

I got on slashdot briefly, but I can't get on any more.

I'd appreciate it if anyone post anything they hear. This makes me so sad, what if those were passenger planes?

More info
 

Okay, this is what I got...

first off, links: st. louis today

yahoo

that yahoo link was pretty sparse when i could get to it, but they'll probably update it.

now, more info:

pentagon - the pentagon has been hit with a plan near the helipad on the e wing. it's been evacuated. no confirmed casualties. injuries though.

world trade center - the second tower has, at least partially, collapsed. the first tower is leaning. the first hit was an american airlines boeing 767 flight from boston to los angeles. they haven't confirmed if there were passengers on board or not.

from skynews

A person who answered the phone on the trading floor at interdealer-broker Cantor Fitzgerald, located near the top of the World Trade Center, said: "We're fucking dying," then hung up. There was screaming and yelling in the background. A follow up call was not answered.

I have more pictures on my moderately well connected and pretty stable server in Mississippi. Please save them instead of viewing them a bunch, in case a lot of people end up hitting 'em. Here are links:

picture of both towers burning picture of second plane flying toward second tower

GONE
 

I work over at ABC News - as you can imagine its NUTS here. The WTC is GONE, both buildings have gone down. Part of the Pentagon is gone, the State department has been car bombed

no car bomb at state department.

here's a picture of the second explosion the moment it happened:

http://www.digipulse.org/images/wtc_..._explosion.jpg

i read on msnbc that both towers have collapsed - i'm waiting to confirm this.

as i was in the elevator on the way up, i was thinking "why today?"... september 11... 9-11... 911... who knows... that's the best i could come up with... ideas?

more information
 

dynamo - both planes were passenger planes. they were

american airlines flight 11, from boston to los angeles, carrying 81 passengers and 11 crew

american airlines flight 77, from dulles (right near where i live) to los angeles, carrying 58 passengers and 6 crew

united airlines flight 93 from newark to san francisco crashed near somerset, pennsylvania -- initial reports indicate no survivors -- heard a rumor that it was hijacked and the pilot crashed it in a field/whatever to avoid hitting a building and killing more

united stated it was "deeply concerned" about a fourth plane, flight 175, from boston to los angeles, which is missing currently.

there has also been a car bomb explosion outside the state department. most of the major news sites are back up now, so you can go and check those out. i myself am going to get home as soon as i can. this is absolutely fucking nuts. they've closed down the beltway (I-495), pandemonium outside (i'm 20 minutes from the pentagon)... this is insane...

I live in Brooklyn but work in Manhattan.. the company I work for has ~50+ people in WTC1 and we have (had) a server farm there that I'd physically get to from time to time (I work in midtown).

Today I didn't go to work (school.. work part time).. in the morning.. there was no express (interborough) bus service.. so I took the subway (no idea about what's going on at this point).. after getting almost to the bridge all subway service was suspended and trains turned back. 3 stations before mine.. trains totally stopped and ordered passangers off.. I think they might have thought about a bomb attack on the train(s). Some of the people on the street are near hysterical (although most are calm).. stopping me, asking if I'm coming back from the city...

Now the debree (partially burned paper mostly) was landing where I live.. which is quite a distance.. and now as before the sky is full of smoke.

Can't get to anyone at work.. phones dead. Called a friend who works right near WTC.. said he witnessed the whole thing.. anyway.. there's at this point to automated transportation of any kind to/from Manhattan.. to Brooklyn.. people are crossing the bridge on foot.

I think for many readers of this forum it'll be hard to imaging the physical magnitude of WT towers going down.. being physically being there many time.. it's just unreal.

Obviously, this is the image of the day.... I can't top it obviously and no desire to.

Thanks dham for scouting out those shots, I'm sure there will be MANY to follow...

I heard that something like 50,000 people work in the WTC... and 40,000 tourists see it a day, and another 100,000 pass underneath it riding the PATH....

Though many people have pointed fingers at the taliban and the PLO, both have denied involvement. Osama Bin Laden (currently being "contained" by the Taliban in Afganistan) however, has neither denied nor claimed responsibility.

Bush has said that this is an act of terrorism, and Sen. McCain has said that it is an act of war, and that any country who harboured suspects in this will be considered at war with the US..


Hmmm..


As many people have said on slashdot, give blood in your local blood bank if you are an American (blood is easy to ship everywhere, so even if you live far away, it counts!), and I guess.... just pray or something if you live elsewhere... ;(

http://www.drudgereport.com/wt.jpg

most of the tv reports I saw didn't have the second crash from this angle.

btw, it has not been confirmed that the DFLP was responsible. The BBC website claims they took credit, but other sites say "top officials" in the organization have repeatedly denied involvement. I can't see why they would claim responsibility only to deny it afterwards, and I doubt they are behind this.

The anti-arab backlash thats happening in this country today is awfully scarry.

great picture leif.

the anti arab backlash is scary, but understandable. a lot of people had their lives ruined today, and not just those that died. the simple fact of the matter is that arabs have been using terrorism against their "enemies" for some time now. consider this: the world trade center bombing in '93 was an arab stunt. it killed six and wounded, i believe, a thousand more. it was an awful event. but you didn't see us go grab six random arabs and kill 'em, meanwhile taking 1000 random arabs and, say, blowing their legs off or breaking their arms.

as for this today - innocent people have lost their lives. a lot of innocent people have lost their lives. and when we find out who did it, we're not going to round up an equal number of the supporters of the guilty party and do to them as they have done unto others, even though their religion, islam, preaches so. but, of course, they routinely break this by killing indiscriminately.

undoubtedly, we will find out who caused this. it will take time, and it will be hard, but we will find out. it may have been a government. it may have been bin laden. the arab backlash comes from a simple fact: we don't have so many powerful enemies that are non-arab. we just don't. islamic jihad, hamas and the dflp have all denied responsibility - but, of course, blame u.s. policies in the mideast (read: "being israel's friend"). that IS what this is about.

when i see arabs dancing in the streets celebrating because hundreds, if not thousands of innocent people have died today... it makes me, and many others, feel as if they, too, are guilty in a way. i used to have a lot of sympathy for the palestinians and their cause, but because of their method of pursuit, all of their credibility is gone. that's why you see this anti-arab backlash today.

Scary thoughts:

Already the reaction is just as bad as the original event and it's only going to get worse.

However, to their credit all of the officials and ex-officials interviewed by news organizations say the right things: don't panic, don't jump to any conclusions, act responsibly, etc.

Because major news sites are overloaded, here are some other pictures from a site referenced from K5.

http://cellar.org/pictures/911a.jpg

http://cellar.org/pictures/911b.jpg

http://cellar.org/pictures/911c.jpg

http://cellar.org/pictures/911d.jpg

http://cellar.org/pictures/911e.jpg

The other scary thought
 

I have flown that same Manhattan route in MS Flight Simulator. I'm sure a lot of us have. Buzz the Statue of Liberty and then fly between the twin towers... it's almost standard. Of course, I used whatever Cessna is standard in MSFS, but there are other bigger jets in the game.

Tony,

The WTC was built to withstand a direct hit from a Boeing 707. This is of course resulting from the time that a B25 bomber tragically crashed into the Empire State Building.. killing 14.

http://history1900s.about.com/librar...mpirecrash.htm

I saw an interview with a structural architect this morning, and I think that the thought process when designing the WTC was that "sure it's possible that some nutcase in a cessna might hit it, but there's not way anyone could ever hijack a Jumbo-jet and hit it..."

*sigh*.. ;(

Also, of note in what dm was saying about over-reacting: If I recall correctly, this same cast of characters (the PLO, osama bin, the N. Koreans, etc) was accused at various times throughout the whole Oklahoma City investigation.....

But I have to agree with you... when I see these people dancing in the streets, it doesn't give me a real warm fuzzy feeling. It gives me a "Let's send in some really heavily armed marines and give them a good ass-kicking" feeling...


But wiser heads will prevail, and wait to make a decision, I hope.


Maybe this is Bush's chance to prove that he's smarter than people give him credit for.....

http://www.spack.nu/wtc/wtcboom.jpg

yet another dramatic image of one of the explosions, this one I found a link to in the /. comments....

A buddy of mine in the reserves said he just got called in but doesn't know where they are sending him yet. There's lots of reports of troop movements on slashdot too, though I don't know how much I trust those...

The drudge report (where I found the other image I posted earlier) breifly had a red line of text reading "Explosions in Afghanistan..." but without a link. When I reloaded the page, it was gone...
I've read simmilar claims, though also on the /. comments.

In any case, this is only going to get worse. American's want revenge, and I think the military intends to deliver. I wonder how many more thousands of innocent people will have to die before this is over.

The Date.
 

Hey Dham, how's this for a reason this date was chosen. Isn't today the anniversary of the Camp David Peace Accord/Treaty?
That seems like a good bet.

I'm still numb from the idea that they hijacked these planes with KINIVES, not guns or bomb's. Incredible.

Re: The Date.
 

My guess was that the date was chosen for it's general memorability ... 911 ... this certainly is an emergency.

I learned today that my boyfriend's sister works in the WTC. We still haven't heard anything. I don't know which tower she was likely to be in.

Also, my personal involvement may get deeper. I am a critical incident stress managment debriefer, and the Montgomery County team is on alert for possible activation to go to provide service to fire, ems, and police personnel in NYC.

The world is changed forever.

One person's perspective
 

I was plugging away on the phone at work today, when someone made an offhand comment just after 9 this morning...

"Hey, a plane crashed into one of the World Trade Towers..."

Unfortunately, my company has a firewall up, so I can't access the internet. A short time later, I hear that another plane has crashed into the second tower. From there, the news continued to trickle out further. At 11:30, we sent all the parents home, which took about 1/3 of our workforce. One employee's sister was at the WTC--she got out. Another employee's mother works there--no word yet.

During lunch, I scanned my boss's computer (since he has the net). I was only able to access the Washington Post. Quite frankly, it was frightening. My fiance used to drive by the Pentagon every morning, and worked a mere 10 minutes from there.

Then I saw this particular number: 50,000. 50,000 people possibly dead?! On our own soil? At this point, all the chaos seemed so unreal.

Then further news: Palestinians celebrating. Immediately, the anti-Arab sentiment started rising. I tried to keep my own employees in line by trying to focus them on work...although it was admittedly difficult.

At times during the day, I would begin to tear up. No god, goddess, or creator would ever justify something like this as means to an end. Why on earth would someone or some people feel a need to commit an act like this? In most religions, suicide is the ultimate sin that bars you from the pearly gates. In my opinion, there is no real honor in killing yourself. Rather than carry themselves like dignified human beings, they cowardized themselves...possibly killing thousands in the process.

As I drove home about 5:30, there was an eerie calm. The Schuykill Expressway was quiet, as if it were a Saturday morning and not the middle of rush hour.

I got home and had a chance to see some of the taped feeds. The only pictures I had seen online were the damage to the first building (before the second plane hit) and a picture of the second building collapsing. Unreal...

But perhaps the picture that was most jarring was shown about 8pm on NBC. Someone had climbed out one of the towers and jumped. The camera followed the jumper's fall until blocked by another building. My fiance burst into tears.

I am relieved, however, that some of things I had initially heard were not true (e.g. that there were 8 unaccounted planes; that the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was shot down by the military).

If any of you lost friends or loved ones, let me offer my deepest condolences.

I don't believe that God is an angry God, nor do I question God. Whoever committed these attacks, or was responsible for authorizing them, will be punished--severely. I don't anticipate France or Russia giving the US too much of a hard time on this one.

At this point though, the only thing we as American citizens, and as a country, can do is move forward. Obviously, it is a time for mourning right now. However, if we let ourselves crumble at this tragedy, then we only show the world, and these terrorists, how weak we are. I'm not one for patriotism or anything like that, but we really do need to rally the troops here: do what we can to help, stick together, "rebuild" our damaged psyche, and keep the faith.

The Tom Clancy book Executive Decision opens with Congress and the President being offed by an errant Japanese pilot who divebombs directly into the capitol.

The sort of thing the new President points out goes well here. The country's psyche may be shaken, but the infrastructure - well 99.9% of it - is still here. And the people who make that infrastructure go are still here.

While we may have a new view of terrorism, and a vengeance to do away with it completely, the things that really make the country operate from day to day are going to go back online.

The more shaken we are, the more the terrorists win. We should show how strong we are by making tomorrow the most productive day in months. I know I will.

We should stand up, call time, dust off the front of our uniforms, and ask: ...is that all ya got?

This is obviously best-documented mass-murder in history.

There was, undeniably, a major breakdown in airport security. How could this happen?

As a person who is scheduled to fly in a few weeks, I am understandably concerned.

If it will ensure my safety, I would undergo a strip-search, if need be.

This country will survive. It always has, and always will.

Whoever the perpetrators are, we will bury you, I promise.

Don't f*** with the USA.

- Nothing But Net

Somebody sent me this :


"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb"
"The third big war will begin when the big city is burning"
-- Nostradamus 1654


Comments ? ;-)

My mom went to the US last week. She was first in Washington, but now she is in Boston. I got scared out of my wits, even though I never thoght she could be in danger. But the images of those people falling of the WTC were too impressive.

A friend of ours, whose house my mom is staying at, works at Oracle, and he knew some people that worked at the Oracle office in the now extinct WTC. Just terrible.

Count Zero!
 

If true, this has to be be the most accurate prediction Nostradamus ever made.

Do you have a cite?

If you do, THAT IS SCARY!

Please, please respond, and tell me no, it's not true... - NBN

Planes Crash Into World Trade Center
 

Some background notes:

NYC has just lost almost all TV stations 2, 4, 5, 7, 11 which include ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox. However most FM stations used the Empire State or other facilities. These are guesses that only NYC area residents can confirm. Ironically 2 (CBS) used the WTC for analog but (I think) used the Empire State Building for digital broadcasting.

For some reason, many NYC AM stations were also off air for some hours as best I could tell.

Little known was how close the WTC came to collapse in the 1993 bombing. Theoretically both towers should not have survived in 1993.

Morgan Stanley Dean Witter had 50 floors of offices - almost the entire company.

The WTC was 10% of NYC's office space.

One NYC fireman morned the death of his friend killed by a falling body. Missing will be many of NYC's fire Department including top officers since they went in to fight a big fire. It was the fire, not the shock from the plane, that brought down all three buildings.


How well did your news service operate. ABC News was doing a superb job compared to NBC and Fox. However local ABC's Action News would keep interrupting good facts to report how Philadelphia was severely impacted. IOW Jim Garnder and company just want more air time; no matter how nothing they had to report. By his air time, you would have though the WTC rubble fell into Philly. Garnder would have been more responsible by reporting the weather. Just to stop hearing Action News very embarrassing 'need to show face', I setup an antenna to receive an ABC station located elsewhere. What a relief to not deal with the local mentalities of WPVI's Action gossip.

For example, just as ABC network was reporting what business were located where, instead Jim Gardner interrupts with nonsense - maybe something silly like schools are closing or was it the report how fast people were lowering flags to half mast. Does he ever report News?

I am rather pleased with ABC Network news especially Peter Jennings. First they eliminated alot of those unnecessary teary eyed bullshit reports. They put all those rumors into perspective so that 4 more planes are not missing over the US and so that we are not attacking Afganistan. They even took Sen Hatch through a grilling when Hatch had made some most misleading and easily misinterpreted comments by partially leaking an intelligence briefing.

Also from what was leaked. The CIA bluntly put the facts on the table also noting bluntly that they had been providing this material previously. Remember the invasion of Kuwait? Another Pres Bush made a special trip to the CIA to apologize when again another administration had ignored CIA's warnings that Iraq was going to invade.

Keep in mind the comment made by Bush. If taken as he stated it, then any country identified as supporting or harboring these terrorist, either now, previously, or in the future can worry ... that the US Congress will declare war on that nation. How might he back out of that statement? Easy because of how it was phrased. But the message could be chilling - or an idle threat.

Massive insurance payments will require extensive money withdrawn from the stock markets. Bush may just get the recession he wanted when he took office.

So where is the need for Bush's multi-$billion defense shield? They didn't even use guns - used knives. They didn't even use weapons of mass destruction. Where should those $billions really be spent? Certainly not to defend rockets that will not exist - when airliners and knives can kill thousands.

Nostradamus - how embarrassing since his comments could apply to most any disaster. To think a Nostradamus prediction is scary is equivalent to worshipping gods who live on Mt Olympus - then blaming the gods when the crops don't grow. We are expected to think logically - not wish we could see the future through tarot cards.

.......i don't know what to say any more. Mum woke me up saying there had been a disaster in the US, i didn't know what till I logged into slashdot, then CNN. I was shellshocked. At school we have been watching it all day, mostly CNN feeds on TV and news websites. Knifes aren't hard to get on to domestic flights, creamics or glass work well and are hard to pick up by dectector.

Yea i saw that quote on slashdot - we'll see about the last two bits of it. Anyway i wouldn't call Shrub a great leader - no matter what Fox News says =P

General opinion is that its Osama bin laden. If it is i really do hope they nail his ass to a wall for this one. Literally.

.............................*sighs*

tw, shut the fuck up...
 

YOU don't know what happened on those airplanes! You shouldn't be second guessing the heroism or lack thereof onboard, you fucking unproven hero. What an asshole you are, cocksucker!

Fuck Off, asshole.

On the upside X10 ahve suspended thos fucking ads !!

*something* not awful had to come out of this. Our school is flying a US flag (obviously they were keeping it in rediness of becoming the 61st state) at half mast....

Have to agree with tw on nostrodamus though. What was that quote about creationisim working when u twisted and bent it until it fit the best science can currantly muster came to mind.

Jag, I wasn't getting up your ass but I will if needed!
 

These were the quotes from 'tw' that I found offensive:

"Massive insurance payments will require extensive money withdrawn from the stock markets. Bush may just get the recession he wanted when he took office.

So where is the need for Bush's multi-$billion defense shield? They didn't even use guns - used knives. They didn't even use weapons of mass destruction. Where should those $billions really be spent? Certainly not to defend rockets that will not exist - when airliners and knives can kill thousands."

If you feel the same way, then you're on the list as well.

If you are not my friend, then you give solace to my enemy!

NBN

sorry net i didn't see your heading when i read that the first time.
then i change the message entirely just to confuse you =P (joking)

I assume your anger is aimed at the dry nature of his comments - rather than their content themselves. I agree with you - this is not a time for political trolling.

On the other hand going on a jihad yourself (oh that was a poor choice of words wasen't it) won't help. Save the anger for those responsible.

*straps on fireproof gear in case*

To all concerned,

I have several friends in the New York City area.

I don't have any idea of their condition.

Now is not the time to joke with me.

NBN

We realised that (your not in a good mood)
Personally I extend my deepest condolences, overused as that phrase is. I'm sure the rest of cellar does too.

I've been at the top of the WTC!
 

I could have been there when this happened.

Life is precious.. Never forget that!

Re: Count Zero!
 

Well, perhaps... But its not quite accurate, its it ? I mean, it fits well but it could also fit to a completely different situation.

Quote:

Do you have a cite? If you do, THAT IS SCARY! Please, please respond, and tell me no, it's not true... - NBN

A friend of mine sent me this through ICQ, but he got from somebody else. I don't know if its real, but I think it its. At least it *sounds* like what nostradamus used to say, but I can't comfirm it.

So far, they are guessing 6000 to 10000.

The rest aren't innocent - guilty my ommission or commission

Re: Planes Crash Into World Trade Center
 

As one of the people keeping the infoo to Peter flowing (I work for ABC News in IS), that you for the nice comments

BTW CBS (Channel 2) didn't go down - they were the only station NOT to move their transmiter from the Empire State Building back in the 70s

The Nostradamus thing is not true, that quote was written by a high school student in a paper <i>about</i> Nostradamus.

<a href="http://www.fury.com/article/925.php" target="new">http://www.fury.com/article/925.php</a>

i have heard counts of anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 people dead.

thats 25,000 parents that wont be home from work after school.

thats 25,000 parents who will never see their kids graduated, drive, or go to the prom.

thats 25,000 kids with either one parent or no parents, left to fend for themselves in new york city.

thats over a quarter of a million people who dont know if their fiancee, son, daughter, mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, cousin, best friend, or college roomate is dead.

thats 25,000 innocent lives that were taken prematurely before they were ready.

thats 25,000 dead americans sitting in 3 places in the northeast.

thats one pissed off city.

thats one pissed off country.

thats one dead motherfucker who killed them

Re: Jag, I wasn't getting up your ass but I will if needed!
 

easy there NBN...you're right in that this isn't the time to argue politics. But I think you're assuming he meant life insurance and that may not be the case, at least that's not what I assumed.

i have heard counts of anywhere from 10,000 to 50,000 people dead.


Thankfully the counts I have heard have been dwindling. The count that CharlieG gave you two messages above yours included the number 6000. Right now on ABC they are interviewing a woman from the 35th floor who said that they have now accounted for everyone in her office. Reports are coming in from people above the floors that were directly hit. And the Pentagon number has gone down from approximately 800 to approximately 200.

Thankfully.

Obviously every single death is unacceptable but these details are very hopeful. It doesn't lower the impact of terrorism or of this event if fewer people die. It won't soften our resolve.

Verbatim, if it weren't for the FCC, I'm pretty sure you'd get a job as Bush's speechwriter.

Personally, the people I feel for most, away from the victims, their families, etc, is the NYFD.

Every time I saw a shot of a NY firefighter on the scene, I couldn't help but be moved by the look on his face: rage and helplessness in equal harmony. You could see that they wanted in, that they wanted to save lives and the buildings (before they collapsed), but they couldn't get anywhere. You know that that feeling is probably going to plague them for a long time after this.

I have nothing but respect for the NYFD, and firefighters anywhere. The job of a firefighter is plain and simple: saving your life. Your life and your belongings. And when I heard that at least 300 were reported missing in the wreckage...

Folks, I'm not emotional. I don't cry often, if all. But that news, and the looks on their faces brought me closer than in God only knows how long.

Emotioningly,

~Mike

Don't sacrifice your dignity and freedom
 

Unfortunately, this would probably do very little to ensure your safety - and might arguably make the situation worse.

If we all choose to subject ourselves to more searches, more surveillance and more control in response to the terrors of yesterday, we'll be playing into the enemy's hands. They want us to react in fear.

If the effect of the attack is that we live more timidly, we'll invite more attacks in kind. And any amount of security measures we subject ourselves to will always have a way of being subverted.

The best response is to put up a brave front - go about your life fearlessly. And bring the enemy to swift justice. If these attacks do not cause further widespread harm, and retaliation is sure, then there should be less incentive to repeat the crime.

get this. at my high school, outside of harrisburg, there were announcements for people over 17 to get out of class and go give blood at our local mall. later they announced that they wont send anybody because there is a 5 HOUR WAIT TO GIVE BLOOD. 5 hours in justa suburban little community like ours to give blood. and i heard its like this all over te country.



with that amount of blood coming in, i think we need more disasters.

its also wonderful that almost everybody is taking off work to go help in nyc and other areas. money must be pouring into the red cross and the salvation army. this is wonderful how our country comes together to help each other like this. i dont think any other country has rallied behind a city like this before. i hope it continues

Whoa, high school outside of Harrisburg? Wierd coincidence time, which one? (I went to CD East for Jr High and then moved to the west shore and went to CV.)

Interesting. I went over to Community General Oesteopathic Hospital (just outside Harrisburg) yesterday and donated a pint (I had been planning to donate at a local blood drive in a few weeks, but this sped up my schedule).

They had to turn people away because they were becoming too busy. They had no idea that this was going to happen and that so many people would turn out when it did.

If you DO donate, please remember to do it again -- it's needed even when there are NOT disasters.

The taliban has Bin Ladne under hosue arrest and will extradite if they can prove he did it. I think they're realsied if u stand between the US and whoever did this your gonna get a lot of quarter-ton bombs shoved up your ass. I do hope they fuck him up real good for this though.

Re: Re: Count Zero!
 

It could fit what happened during the Gulf War, with Jerusalem being the City of God, and Tel Aviv being the big city (when it was hit by Scuds).

*shrugs* I don't believe in the prophecies of Nostradamus as his statements or not-statements seems to be applicable in a variety of situations.

Regarding your post astearns, I don't think that extra security in airports is necessarily a bad thing. Given that we keep hearing about air traffic being at an all time high, there are a lot more people in those airports--perhaps we've gotten a bit lax. If not more security, it wouldn't hurt us to put the system under scrutiny to see its strengths and weaknesses.

By the same token, I will not fear flying on a plane, other than the jitters I get when sitting on a wing. I've always felt secure at the airports I've been at, including O'Hare...and the security as a whole has seemed to function very well in my handful of flight experiences. For every one plane that is hijacked or crashes, millions of others take off and land safely. Many people have made this point over the past 2 days, but it cannot be emphasized enough--we simply must remain strong in the face of tragedy.

Re: Planes Crash Into World Trade Center
 

I've been spending time on the BBC News website. I like the way the news is laid out there, not to mention, it's a difference perspective. Check it out.

Perspective
 

Ok, yes, the recent occurances are less than pleasant. Nobody can deny that. Whomever organised this needs to be found, apprehended and imprisioned, in solitary, for life (I do not agree with death penalties, no matter the crime).

But... just to put some perspective on things, in this accident combined I would expect the final death toll to be less than 10,000 people, perhaps as low as 6000, a lot of people got out of the WTC before things went pear shaped.

But more than 20,000 people this year in the USA alone will die from homicide. Your own people (I'm not American) almost certainly kill more of your own people per year than this act will claim as it's final death toll.

Think about it, think about those 20,000 people who will die this year looking at the barrel of a gun, or bleed to death from multiple stab wounds, ... and then ask yourself, why do you not cry for thier lives as you cry for these 6000 ?

maybe if 20,000 homicides happened all at once it would be the same.

i just don't like how this event is giving some people the chance to hop up on a soap box and capitalize on the situation... especially that email floating around, supposedly an editorial from canada talking about how great america is... that's just fabricated propaganda (we spell neighbour with a U) and isn't appropriate. all the rest of the "what about X?" folks are perhaps barking up the wrong tree as well...

Because those 20k don't get 24-hour + media coverage.

That's the way the world works. See "15 Minutes" if you don't believe me.

Criticizingly,

~Mike

Hey Jaguar,

Where did you hear that the Taliban has Bin Laden under house arrest? I could not find it on any of the major news sites..

It would be great if that were true, would probably save a lot of afghanistani lives.

..

Taliban government has denied it. From MSNBC:

Oh well...

Re: Perspective
 

It's never a good thing when a person dies needlessly. Also, keep in mind, these people that died in the World Trade Center are technically murder victims. I believe the WTC is being considered a crime scene. How often though, do 6000 people die at one time? How can people not appalled by the sheer numbers? Also, I would estimate that many Americans don't quite think on this level. No offense to them, but it's hard for some to look at the entire perspective.

For the record
 

From the Urban Legends Reference Page, this editorial is indeed TRUE. However, it was done by radio commentator Gordon Sinclair in 1973, not recently. The text that Urban Legends uses is from the Congressional Record, which would explain why the words are Americanized.

Re: Re: Perspective
 

No of course not.

Mmmmm, maybe, depends, if this is considered an act of war then wouldn't they be regarded as victims of war (is that the term) ? Not that it matters, I'm just being pedantic.

Not often, I can't really think of any incidents outside of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, but i'm sure there must be.

This is the problem, already we are seeing unwarranted hatred being directed towards anybody remotly Arabic looking, or of Muslim faith. And not just in America, even here in lil'ol New Zealand there are reports of this! It's just insane, hate for the sake of hate. It leaves me in dismay that obviously such racisim lives just below the surface of so many people.

Re: Re: Re: Perspective
 

Not really, given that we are not currently at war with any country.

Quote:

This is the problem, already we are seeing unwarranted hatred being directed towards anybody remotly Arabic looking, or of Muslim faith. And not just in America, even here in lil'ol New Zealand there are reports of this! It's just insane, hate for the sake of hate. It leaves me in dismay that obviously such racisim lives just below the surface of so many people.

I do agree that it is a problem, when we put it in that context. It is unfortunate that some Americans shoot first and ask questions later. It doesn't help with what we've seen in the media today. This type of frenzy also occurred after the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. Respect and understanding are crucial right now...and truth be told, it wouldn't hurt for our government to make a statement regarding this.

*wishfully thinks*

more perspective
 

I work for a wireless phone insurance provider. About 8:30 this morning, I get a claim call. The first thing we do for a new claim is ask for the mobile number. As soon as the customer gave me area code 347 (one of the area codes of the NYC boroughs sans Manhattan), I got that queasy feeling.

"Ok ma'am, could you provide me with a description of what happened to your phone?" (She had mentioned as soon as I picked up the phone that she was reporting a lost phone.)

"I was at the World Trade Center on Tuesday."

"Okay...*stomach starts to knot up, trying to keep cool*...so you were at the World Trade Center on Tuesday and lost your phone?" (I always confirm the info that the customer gives me.)

"Yes, I worked there."

I had to take pause for a moment. The woman sounded very sad. I can only imagine what she had experienced. In the end, I handled the situation well. Granted, my job is to process insurance claims...to keep cool. On one hand, I wanted to say, "I'm sorry for what you have experienced." On the other hand, what exactly can you say?

Slee, I've been discussing the events with my family (primarily my mother), and she made a good point:

After the Cold War to this point, America has been perceived as the world's rock, the one standing superpower. When this perception was pierced and our vulnerability laid bare for the world to see, it shook EVERYONE.

When I viewed the images in the "World Reaction" sections Tony put up, I was touched. What really got to me was the special session of the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham.

For the uninitiated, the Changing is very quiet: No music, no fanfare, just essentially a shift change. Today (9-13-01), they did a special session. Everyone was gathered, and the Royal military band of England (I know there's a specific name, but it escapes me at the moment) was there, playing the American national anthem at Queen Elizabeth II's personal request.

The best thing I can think of saying is: The giant sleeps no more, and it's a Republican. Not even God can help whoever is found to have done this.

Forebodingly,

~Mike

I found BBC, Salon and Slashdot were by far the best news sources.

*straps on firesuit*
There are, at a macro level two reasons behind this. One is very Marxist of me, class war.

The second and third world are very pissed off with the first world, this is to be expected, and we exploit them.

If anyone wants to disagree ill go into allot more detail but it’s been a long, long week and I’m tired.

The second reason is US foreign policy.
Why are the Taliban in power? The US wanted to rid the area of USSR influence. Unquestioning support of Israel hasn’t helped either. On that subject Palestine has not lost ALL support in the western world - stupid move. The US has a long history of playing political games to benefit it and its business interests, this has got to stop.

Now is one of the most dangerous times in recent history. Depending on how this is handled it could cause a long running ragged war that could be incredible bloody, and I don't trust the ham-fisted conservative republican administration to handle this properly. I'm hoping finally Powell gets a decent say instead of being marginalized.

If they fuck this up, and chances are they will, expect fucking war, not trenches and marines but terrorist attacks, bombings etc. It will not be pretty. *sighs*

Already the blind hatred I’m seeing is SO FUCKING STUPID. There was a letter in the herald sun here, the local paper for the average labor voter, tends to be very sensationalist that said 'just nuke the entire middle east, problem solved' If I could find that person I’d chain them to a chair and force them to watch videos of what ordinary people are going though there for about a week.

It will be hard, if not impossible to avoid a very dangerous conflict out of this.

I'm not sure about that house arrest report on Osama i've heard stuff both ways know. I hope they have for everyone's sake.

Guess what - I've watched what has been going on here in NY for a week, and I agree with that letter - but first spray the whole place with pork fat

Literally, that person may be correct. That MIGHT eliminate the problem that we are having this week (though I question even that). But we'd have other problems, not the least of which would be ourselves and what we would have become -- the same as them -- by indescriminately killing the innocent along with the guilty with no regard for human life.

There are two ways that I have often seen people react to acts of violence and misery -- even as "minor" as children who are bullied in school. The first is "fine, if people are going to do that to me, I am going to do it to other people" also known as the "get them before they get you" philosophy.

The second is the "that is so cruel and mean that I want to be sure that *I* never do that to someone else" also known as the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" philosophy.

The latter allows us to rise above them and attain support and sympathy from the rest of the world who will, through less violent means, help us attempt to irradicate this method of "warfare" from the world.

The former allows the evil (not the specific acts of violence, but the thinking behind them) to propigate and win and we essentially become terrorists ourselves.

I just hope that we do not respond to terrorists by becoming terrorists.

<steps down off soapbox>