The ethics of citizenship
 

They say evil happens when good people turn their backs and do nothing. I see the US as a country where the citizens are caught between complacency on the one hand and dispair on the other. Abuses of the people by the system are widespread and flagrant. Yet when one speaks out, one is generally regarded as some extremist whacko or told that "you can't fight city hall." Perhaps its true that we have lost so many freedoms that an individual no longer CAN fight city hall. What is the ethical response in the face of such indifference on the part of the government and its people? Is it still possible to effect a change for the good in this country? Should one even try?

* kicks the soap box over to Radar*
you do it

i have sneaking suspicion that most people think they're rational, slightly smarter than the average bear, and well informed.

They believe that other rational people, if they have the same information, will believe the same things they believe. Yet when they give out a cry for social revolution or government reformation, they are faced with an overwhelming lack of response. They blame this on social apathy, on a hostile culture, on the right-wing radio networks, on the left-wing news networks, etc.

What they never stop to consider is that maybe the reason there's no response is because a vast majority of people disagree with them. I don't think the US is a country caught between complacency and despair. I think a vast segment of the population thinks that things are going well, that 95 out of a 100 of their friends are employed, that they are enjoying the same freedoms they have had their whole lifetime, that their home is increasing in value, and that the places where the system breaks down are by-and-large inconveniences (DMV) not glaring monuments of social injustice (Dred Scott). They believe that this country has a pretty good track record of correcting it's flaws and returning to center.

-sm

Cherish freedom. Never trade freedom for security.

I appreciate the idea, but that's a bit far-reaching to accept as a normative principle. I trade away my freedom to keep all of my money in exchance for the security of a police force. I trade away my freedom to drive 130 mph in a residential zone for the security of knowing that no one else can either.

Most significantly, I trade away the utter freedom of being a "natural man" for the security of living in community.

Perhaps you had some more specific freedoms in minds?

-sm

To Smoothmoniker
 

I give you the following statistics from US government web sites without further comment:

43.6 million Americans were without health coverage in 2002 (The most recent year for which I could find statistics), an increase of 2.4 million from the year before.

According to the measurement technique used, anywhere between 12.1% to 20.4% of all Americans now live below the poverty line. 50% of those aged 65 and up live below the poverty line, as well as 17% of this nation’s children under age 6. http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/p...r&dtable5.html

The Justice Department’s Bureau of Statistics announced that while the US accounts for just 5% of the global population, 25% of the world’s prisoners are held in American prisons. On any given day, nearly one in eight black males aged 20 to 34 are in jail or prison. . About a quarter million mentally impaired inmates are also incarcerated in the nation's prisons.

Last year, the U.S. trade deficit was 4.5 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). In 2002, the trade deficit was 4.0 percent of GDP, and in 2001, it was 3.5 percent. Meanwhile, to give the example of just one Asian country, Korea’s trade with the world reached $373 billion during 2003, an 18.6 percent increase over 2002. During this period, Korea’s exports totaled $194 billion, an increase of 19.6 percent, and imports were $179 billion, an increase of 17.5 percent. As a result, Korea had a trade surplus of $15.5 billion, up from $10.3 billion in 2002. In 2003 U.S. trade imports from Korea totaled $37.0 billion, an increase of 3.9 percent from the year before.

http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/industry/o...ve/current.pdf

There, there now. You just go back to sleep and don’t worry your pretty little head. The wolf will be at the door in the morning.

Quick note on the poverty numbers... I'm pretty sure I fall into the 20% category by not paying myself any actual income.

And I live in a plush house in the burbs with equity and everything, and have never been in danger of losing it.

This year my accountant says I should pay myself, so I will enter into a new government category, no longer "chronically unemployed" because I will send them tax money from a paycheck.

But I've not been actually unemployed; I've been self-employed. Maybe underemployed, but during most of it I wasn't looking for work.

And when I pay myself I'll still have the same amount of cash, because before I paid myself I took money out of the corporation as equity payments.

That's why the poverty numbers look so high in the elderly categories. The elderly are likely to be living off their equity, not income. They're not working at McDonald's, they're selling their houses and retiring to Palm Beach.

Then why is PA the second largest recipient of Social Security checks?

UT, I don't think you can use yourself as an example for anything pertaining to average or normal. After all, you're a king.:)

our "poverty line" is, i expect, quite different than poverty anywhere else in the world.

yet another curse of living in a succesful social and economic environement - you get measured by different standards.

-sm

Oh, you "expect," huh? First of all, if you expect to convince me of the validity of your point of view, I want hard facts from a reputable source, otherwise I'll write your opinion off to middle class complacency and intellectual laziness.

Just because when you look out your window, you don't see a street scene from northeastern Brazil (yet), hardly means that all is well in this country. I reject the argument that the US has a higher standard of living, therefore we need feel no concern for the poor of this nation.

Obviously, you have never attempted life below the official poverty line in the United States. Let me tell you a little how it works. If you are lucky, you'll get some sort of subsidized shelter, but you may have to wait two years or more before your name comes up on the list.* Meanwhile, your choice will be either the local shelter or the streets. Homeless shelters are notorius for incidents of rape, knivings, and other violence.* Many homeless people who live below the poverty line choose life on the streets or camped out on public lands.*

Once indoors, your problems are far from over. The amount of food stamps you will be allocated (if you are lucky enough to get food stanps) will be about $130 a month for a single person. That's a little over $30.00 a week. Its not enough. Always you will be a little hungry.

Every expense will be a nightmare. You won't own a car because you won't be able to afford insurance and repairs. If you are lucky you will live in a town large enough to have some sort of public transportation. If you are luckier yet, you will be able to afford a bus pass. Otherwise, you'll walk everywhere - to the public health clinic which won't be able to treat you for any condition requiring more than an aspirin, to the soup kitchen if your community has one, to the public library (one of the few real services our country provides its people).*

You won't be able to afford a phone or a TV. If you're lucky, someone might give you an old cheap portable radio they were going to throw out anyway. You won't be able to afford cleaning supplies or even the cost of a stamp to send a letter to your congressman.*

I could go on, but you still wouldn't get it, because you can't. You've never attempted it and you don't believe people have to live that way in the United States, and above all you lack both imagination and compassion. In their place you offer glib replies of "I expect" and "I don't believe."

* I can document each of these statements. Feel free to e-mail me if you really want to know.

Welp sm, looks like your plan to live off the state is not going to pan out. You won't be able to get your lattes. Best keep with the current plan of having gainful income and your own support system.

"The poor you will always have with you ..."

Yeah, it sucks to be poor. Unfortunately, poverty is not a social issue that can be swept away or dealt with en masse. It is solved one person at a time, by that one person securing and maintaining gainful employment. There is no political system better than democracy, no economic system better than capitalism for creating opportunities to sell one’s time and services.

Or is that too intellectually lazy for you?

-sm

My anecdotal personal experience seems to indicate that this is because of large numbers of worthless drunk and drug using scumbags who have filed successful disability claims.

Well that isn't a very warm fuzzy attitude.

Mind you, my experience is similar...

wolfie don't ever forget that you're looking at the world through some really strange filters.

The reason PA is #2 is merely that its tiny little central towns retain all of their elderly and few of their youth. They even run ads trying to tell fresh college grads to stay in PA and not run off to the West Coast.

Half my friends over the last 20 years did run off to California, and only one came back, PA is destined to be part of the northern grey belt. How many young people are in Johnstown, Lebanon, Scranton, Altoona, Oil City?

The founding fathers were much closer to the real problems and issues of citizenship than I think that we are. They came at a time that we are slowly approaching I think.

Let's have some their words...


The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

A little rebellion now and then...is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), Letter to James Madison, 1787

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826)

Learned Institutions ought to be favorite objects with every free people. They throw that light over the public mind which is the best security against crafty and dangerous encroachments on the public liberty.
James Madison

The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
James Madison

Educate your children to self-control, to the habit of holding passion and prejudice and evil tendencies subject to an upright and reasoning will, and you have done much to abolish misery from their future and crimes from society.
Benjamin Franklin

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

The smug recital of right wing dogma is hardly indicative of an anylitical mind. I am in full agreement that democracy is an excellent political system. I question if we still live in a real democracy. As for capitalism, if its such a great economic system, then why are so many US jobs vanishing off overseas? If you wish to make some sort of free market apology for this phenomenon, you are misguided. First of all, the outflow of jobs is not about healthy global competition. Its about the lower standard of living (which you noted yourself in a previous post) in Asian and other countries. Big business can take advantage of cheap labor in China at the expense of American workers. You are damn straight that I and every other American worker I know want to go out there, get a job, and stand on our own two feet. But how can we, as more and more American jobs vanish overseas? China is not playing by the same rules we are and its anything but a level free market playing field. You want to assume the role of American patriot or do you want to assume the role of global citizen. You can't have it both ways.

Second, the largest segments of Americans living below the poverty line consist of children under 6, the elderly, and the disabled. In effect, you are screaming out the window at a three year old child to go get a job. I've seen the results of your mentality in Brazil where 9, 10, and 11 year old girls are so desperate to survive that they turn to prostitution. Maybe that turns you on, but most people find their situatioin tragic.

Not every elderly person is the owner of a company or has hundreds of thousands of dollars that they are evading paying taxes for so they just look poor. By the way, why is it that so many well to do conservatives do everything possible to avoid paying the taxes that help our esteemed system continue to functioin? If you guys think its so great, why the hell aren't you willing to do the honorable thing and pay taxes like everyone else?

Finally, the disabled of this country are not drug addicts who wish to live off the government while they snort up. That is a wonderful example of the prejudice and narrowed minded thinking with which Americans with disabilities are treated to by their fellow citizens. The process of obtaining disability benefits from social security is a long and arduous one. The MINIMUM wait is two years - many times its longer. The applicant is subject to rigorous examinations by physicians, case workers, and must often appear before a federal judge to prove their disability. Anyone who's only problem is a desire to become a tweaker at government expense is quickly weeded out in the social security SSI/SSDI claims process. At the end, do you know what the big payoff is for an individual disabled and unable to work?

No, of course not, because you with your intellectually curious mind, never bothered to find out. $560.00 a month. That's it plus about $50.00 in food stamps. That's what we expect our disabled citizens to live on.

Everybody seems to have some story of an individual who is conning the system, but in all likelihood, these malingers (and I admit they DO exist, although not in the numbers most people think) are defrauding workman's comp or a private disability insurance company where the oversight is not as rigorous as it is for SSI/SSDI.

As Ayn Rand wrote, "Check you premises."

Second, the largest segments of Americans living below the poverty line consist of children under 6, the elderly, and the disabled. In effect, you are screaming out the window at a three year old child to go get a job.

One woman and her 3 children living below the poverty line will cause statistics like this. No one is screaming at the child to get a job, they are telling the mother to get a job.

The process of obtaining disability benefits from social security is a long and arduous one. The MINIMUM wait is two years - many times its longer.

Purely anecdotal evidence here... My father-in-law had to go on disability benefits from social security last year. It took a month and a half before the first check arrived.

Scream at the Mother all you wish. She's going to have to find a job that will cover the cost of day care on top of bringing in enough money to support 4 people. Her job has flown off to China and where's the father in all this? How come no one is screaming at him? Meanwhile, that woman's little children are going without proper nutrition or medical care, and your response is just "too bad?"

As for your father in law, that's merely anecdotal evidence. How old was he? What was his disability and are you sure he's recieving SSDI?

You can't be serious. Who the hell do you think pays for the system? The guy down the block making 30k a year? The guy at Ralph’s Grocery bitching that his company won't pay for his medical insurance?

It's me, people like me, and people with more money than me. What I pay in income taxes covers about 8 people in disability, according to your numbers. How's that for supporting the system?

I don't like it, I don't think it's right, but I sure as hell do it. You can hate me for being successful at what I do, you can hate me for creating jobs for other people because of the risks I took early on, but you CANNOT accuse me of not paying my fair share of taxes.

Asshat.

-sm

Scream at the Mother all you wish. She's going to have to find a job that will cover the cost of day care on top of bringing in enough money to support 4 people. Her job has flown off to China and where's the father in all this? How come no one is screaming at him? Meanwhile, that woman's little children are going without proper nutrition or medical care, and your response is just "too bad?"

First off, I don't recall saying "too bad" to anyone, certainly not the children. I think I would say "too bad" to the mother who doesn't want to get a job though.

Second, her job has not flown off to China unless everyone's commuting to China to eat dinner tonight, ordering pizza from China tonight, or shipping their building over to be cleaned by the Chinese tonight. I don't know about the hypothetical you're envisioning, but MY hypothetical woman is not a laid-off skilled factory worker. The simple fact is there ARE jobs available, just not necessarily jobs at the pay or comfort level one thinks they deserve.

Third, she gets tax credits for daycare (even if she has not paid taxes in the first place because she doesn't have a job.) In addition, many public schools offer pre-school starting at age 3, and many churches offer downright free daycare if you can show you are genuinely trying to improve your situation. Also, "supporting four people" is an extremely misleading statement. She's not supporting four adults. Rent is going to be her biggest expense, and three children can easily share one bedroom.

Fourth, I would be willing to bet I am more familiar with the ins and outs of family court than you are. PLENTY of people are screaming at the father, and often unrightfully so. In this day and age if a woman truly wants to find the father and get her money, she can. (More often they don't want the man in their lives at all because they don't want to let him have any visitation with the kids--and DON'T tell me that she has good reason, that women are better equipped to raise them by default.) You talk about how little $560 a month is for a person on disability. A man making minimum wage has roughly that much money left after child support. In addition, in the large majority of cases the father is required to provide medical insurance for the children, so their medical needs are fine--again, if the mother is willing to allow the horrifying possibility of the father having visitation rights.

And either way, if their medical/nutritional needs really get out of line, the children are taken away. Because we have a state that does that, unlike, say, Brazil.

As for your father in law, that's merely anecdotal evidence. How old was he? What was his disability and are you sure he's recieving SSDI?

I agree, it is anecdotal evidence, just as I said. He was 63, his disability was brain cancer, and I am quite certain he was on SSDI. I don't know how much money he received per month.

Neither is godawful spelling mistakes. I speak as one who has made far too many himself.

I've lived fairly close to the edge for a while, It's not much fun, I'm a lucky fucker to be where I am and I don't ignore that fact.

Ask anyone here (try UT for starters) I tend to be a little left of center on most issues, I still don't agree with you. What exactly is your point? There are poor people in america? Being poor sucks? Being disabled and poor sucks? Or for that matter what is your answer? You've got rant after rant full of social issues, economic issues, outsourcing, single parenting, poverty, disabled and elderly welfare....yea stuff sucks but what exactly are you trying to get across or advocating. Also, accusing, without evidence of the most slim, that people here are evading taxes is not going to bolster your claims to being an anylitical mind.

You'd be surprised how many people that appear to be working are actually running their own S-corp. Even the big companies are full of consultants.

It's not tax evasion because the IRS does pursue actual numbers and all income is reported. It's just moving money around from point to point temporarily. It just so happens to make me look all poor and unemployed for the statistics, when I am not either.

The father, more often than not, is unknown or absentee, either by his own choice to avoid the responsibility, or by choices related to his actions (i.e., he's incarcerated).

McDonalds isn't in China. It's down the goddamn street. So are any number of service jobs. Most of them, in a desperate attempt to attract workers are paying above minimum wage and offer benefits, and still the jobs go empty ...

There have been attempts in the US to sustain Welfare to Work programs. It doesn't work because the people who are entered in such programs have no desire to work, succeed, or do much to change their situations.

Employers in these programs are frustrated because their govt mandated "employees" don't get the hang of things like showing up for work when scheduled, or performing job responsibilties on those rare occasions that they do show up.

To Mr. SM: “you can hate me for creating jobs for other people because of the risks I took early on, but you CANNOT accuse me of not paying my fair share of taxes.
Asshat.”
Mr. SM, I stand corrected. I was confusing you with Mr. Undertoad and whatever paper shuffling he admits to in order to appear as having no income. My apologies for confusing the two of you. I do not “hate” you for creating jobs and being successful through your own hard work and willingness to take risks. I didn’t even know about those things and I honor anyone with the intelligence and pluck to succeed in the business world. I am not advocating a dreary communist economy where merit and hard work bring no reward. What I am advocating is social awareness and a sense of enlightened self interest. The disabled man or the child living in poverty that you help today may then be given the chance to enter the work force and become one of your best employees, bringing in thousands of dollars for your company. Or you can refuse them help and pay the cost of social unrest and wasted human potential.

Nor do I hate you because we differ in political outlook. I have called upon you to intelligently defend your position and offer me something besides rhetoric in its defense. Sorry to disappoint you, but my strongest response toward you has been one of exasperation because of your lack of a good, rational argument in defense of your words. Calling me “asshat” does not impress me with your ability to conduct a civil debate, Sir. I have apologized to you for my mixing you up with Mr. Undertoad, now perhaps you might like to apologize for your thinly disguised poor language.

To Mr. Cloddfobble: “Fourth, I would be willing to bet I am more familiar with the ins and outs of family court than you are.” I am sure you are, and I am sorry to hear of what sounds like an extremely unfair and emotionally difficult situation for you. All too often there are wrongs committed against both sides in divorce and custody hearings, and I have heard countless bitter stories from men and women both in this regard. To me its just one more example, that we citizens need to watch dog our courts and legislatures to ensure fair laws are passed and that those laws are impartially administered by our judges. As to your father in law, he became eligible for early social security benefits at age 62. Therefore, his case was different than most.

To Mr. Jaguar: “Neither is godawful spelling mistakes. I speak as one who has made far too many himself.” I freely admit to atrocious spelling. This board doesn’t have a spell check or if it does, I haven’t figured it out. Between spell check and having had a secretary for 20 years who corrected my professional correspondence for me, I have fallen into an extremely slothful approach to spelling, especially in the heat of the moment. Spelling is not the issue here, however. The use of valid reasoning is.

“what exactly are you trying to get across or advocating. Also, accusing, without evidence of the most slim, that people here are evading taxes is not going to bolster your claims to being an anylitical mind.”
My original post was asking the question what is the ethical/moral response of a concerned individual in the face of perceived flaws in our governing system and national policies? Mr. SM then responded with a post saying in effect “everything’s going good for me, what’s the big deal?” I replied to this with a random set of government statistics, easily obtainable from the internet, as things that might concern a responsible citizen. I accuse no one of anything. I simply comment on Mr. Undertoad’s admission that on paper he has no income.

We've never really been a "real" democracy, per se. The US is a republic, not a true democracy.

Lady Sycamore applied for SSDI in early December 2002 (end-stage renal failure), and received her first check in late January 2003...6-7 weeks.

Would you mind providing a source for this information you're posting? Are these averages? Lady Syc pulls down just over $800 a month...of course, it isn't shit compared to what she made while working, but she'll take what she can get.

My company has income, I have equity. This year the company will have no income and I will have pay. The tax liability is similar, except: Social Security. Last year I paid none; this year and every subsequent year I will pay double*, as does every self-employed person**.


*Yes, I know that in some sense all employed people pay double, it's just recorded as being "matched by the employer". Nevertheless I will have to find a way to bring in more income to pay for it on my own.

**With the exception of a small number of Radaresque tax-evaders/tax patriots. And those working the underground economy.

For someone with 20 years with a personal secretary ...Odd individual to be arguing for social welfare. Keep in mind though that spelling mistakes do detract from your point, no matter how valid your point may be. This is merely from personal experience. My best advice, since your posts tend to be long, this goes double it to simply select your post, open your favorite text editor, copy, spellcheck, paste. Takes 20 seconds.

Also don't misinterpret what Ut said, I saw no admission of tax evasion in there, just that states don't count certain types of income. I pay in total over 6 figures worth of tax yet my income, as far as the tax office is concerned is in the 5 figure range. Finances can be complicated things, with cash routed through investment vehicles, account networks and portfolio diversity is only getting more complex.I do engage in some tax minimization but this is to avoid paying tax twice on the same thing in most cases. Secondly I prefer to give money to charities who aim for goals I agree with rather than governments. As far as I'm concerned there are greater plights in the world than the working (or not) poor in America.

Why? Only people who need it should support it? I, for one, support many programs that don't benefit me directly, simply because I think they do good work.

There's still a lot of former hippies here in the US who cling to their socialist love everybody except conservatives believes.

They feel really, really bad about being successful, continue to donate to social causes and charities, support Greenpeace, boycott Tuna, and shop at Whole Foods.

They're mostly harmless.

...and I'm no former hippie.

Though I do have long hair. But that's CS-related, not drug-related.

To Sycamore: “Would you mind providing a source for this information you're posting?”
Certainly, pick up the phone and call your local social security office and ask them what the benefit amount for SSI is. Lady Sycamore obviously receives SSDI which is the program for those who have accumulated enough paid in quarters of work history to qualify. There is a big difference between SSI and SSDI. Often people who become disabled and continue to try to work, but fail, loose their SSDI eligibility, because by time they admit defeat and go down to social security, their paid in quarters are no longer recent enough. These people are then thrown back on the lower paying SSI program and are in effect penalized for not jumping onto disability right away. I am most sorry to hear of Lady S.’s plight. In cases as extreme as hers, the government will sometimes expedite its decision-making process, but not always. Many die while waiting for SSI/SSDI.

Exactamundo, Mr. (or Ms.) OnyxCougar! That was the entire point of my original post, now wasn't it? Instead of getting input on how a citizen might effect change, what I have mostly recieved is arguments that everything is wonderful here in paradise and there's no need to change ANYTHING. You are exactly correct. All this rant is good for absolutely nothing. You all have shown me how NOT to approach the question of effecting change, if that is any consolation to you. And frankly, since you seem so indifferent what do you care what I do?

Re: The ethics of citizenship
 

On a large scale political change type of level, I'd say no, ONE person cannot make a difference. However, if one person is dedicated enough, and has the means, they can be instrumental in motivating other people that share their beliefs. And that GROUP of people CAN. Perhaps these other people would have never acted if not polarized by that one charismatic motivator, perhaps they would. If you are asking what YOU can do about the problems that you see, you must first ask yourself what you are willing to sacrifice to affect the change you see to be needed. You can do as little as voting one way or another, but in this largely bipartisan system, you wind up choosing the lesser of two evils. OR you can write your congressman daily, organize rallies, march on the whitehouse or publish an underground newspaper espousing your beliefs.


what changes did you have in mind?

I wrote from personal experience. I was a member of the middle class until I fell through the "looking glass" and got to experience life as a member of "the have nots." I had a well paid professional job that was the pinnacle of a 20 year career when I moved into a house that had a faulty furnace. For 3 years I was exposed to ever increasing levels of a deadly poison gas - carbon monoxide. By the end, I was ill all the time, unable to think clearly, and completely incapable of understanding what had happened to me. My doctors could not figure it out and I got one mis-diagnosis after the other. Fortunately, a friend finally suspected something was going on with the air in my house and called public utilities. When they arrived, they measured the CO levels in my home and told me that I should have died.

By time the problem was discovered I had been unable to work for over a year and had lost my private medical and disability insurance. I thought the problems would resolve themselves once I was breathing clean air again, but my recovery was slow and arduous. I refused to apply for disability at first because I had always earned my own way, stood on my own two feet, but at last I had to accept defeat and go down and apply because I had no other way of obtaining medical assistance. It took 4 years to get approved. During this whole process I lost everything I had - my savings, everything - and ended up homeless for 3 months.

I am now better than I was but you can still see the effects of what happened to me in my spelling mistakes, my confusion regarding who posted what, and my lengthy posts.

Cute...you make a statement of fact with nothing to back it up, and when challenged, you expect me to go run and find it. I'm going to chalk it up to the fact that you're a newbie, for now.

In addition...

You failed to specify which program you were referring to or whether you were talking about the minimum overall.


Of course it's obvious...b/c I told you what she was receiving.

I don't recall you specifically stating that she gets SSDI. At any rate since you have been through the mill with social security, I assumed you'd have the local number somewhere close by. I'm sick with a bad cold and have to get ready to go on a 900 mile round trip tomorrow and, frankly, I don't feel like tracking down the 800 number for someone who is probably not going to call it, anyhow. If you've been through the drill, you should know this stuff, I'm surprised you don't know the difference between SSI and SSDI. At any rate, I'm glad for you and Lady S. that you have had such a positive experience with the folks at social security. God bless you all.

My original purpose was not to debate social/povery issues but to ask for input on what an ethical individual should do in the face of a percieved government wrong. The response from this board has been almost unanimous in the assertation that everything is wonderful here in the US and I'm just some sort of quaint hippie leftover that I would dare question anything.

Well, its your country as well as mine and if you are all happy with the current state of the nation, far be it from me to argue the point further. As an earlier poster mentioned, its just a big waste of time, and I have better ways of spending my time then trying to convince a group who is not interested in what I have to say. It's been entertaining y'all. You can now go back to your self congratulatory business as usual without further comment from me.

I'm pretty sure that brings us around to my original point.

People who think things ought to change get pissy when it turns out a lot of people disagree with them

-sm

crybaby.

I responded to your initial question, and you ignored that. You must be happy with the current state of your superiority o'er all of our pedantic self congratulatoryness, and prefer to act all put out and misunderstood...... Oh, boo hoo, I lost my fortune because I was too stupid to put a CO monitor in my house, Wahhh, I'm sick and I have to travel, My pussy hurts, you guys are mean, wahhh.

have a nice life. Don't let the door hit you on the ass as you leave. buh-bye. ba!.......bye! ............alrighty then, bye bye now.

I answered and received nothing for it. I'm so not feeling the love.

So I'll answer again on a fuller and more personal note.

I'm currently in school for Sciology and Criminal Justice. The Sociology because it is the study of people and groups and their dynamics. The Criminal Justice is because of its focus on social rules and deviance and because it'll probably help me get a job when I'm done with school. I'm going to pursue a Master's Degree in Sociology and possibly Philosphy as well.

I'm going to learn to communicate to people how important thinking, communicating and cooperating are and how to do them.

Sadly, that is very true. I was once on a newsgroup for people who were on or trying to get SSI/SSDI, and the stories they told were horrible! The hoops they had to jump through just to get a little money (and some people, IMO, were in worse situations than I could ever imagine. At least I can still walk and be mobile...some were confined to wheelchairs, walkers, crippled, etc.).

I'm not sure exactly what the answer is to all of this. It'll take not just one person, but a multitude of change to make a difference, IMO.

Thanks, much appreciated.

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My original purpose was not to debate social/povery issues but to ask for input on what an ethical individual should do in the face of a percieved government wrong. The response from this board has been almost unanimous in the assertation that everything is wonderful here in the US and I'm just some sort of quaint hippie leftover that I would dare question anything.

It's been my experience that most (not all) people who have not experienced any type of hardship, small or large, have a lot to say against those complain about the current state of things.

Everything isn't so wonderful here, and I believe that most people *DO* believe that. But for some reason, as soon as someone "dares" to question anything, you're unpatriotic, unAmerican, ungrateful for what you have, and all that nonsense. While I've never known poverty and homelessness (and I hope to hell I never do), I have known people who have gone through such hard times, and far be it from me to tell them that they can't complain about the state of affairs in the good ol' US of A.

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Well, its your country as well as mine and if you are all happy with the current state of the nation, far be it from me to argue the point further. As an earlier poster mentioned, its just a big waste of time, and I have better ways of spending my time then trying to convince a group who is not interested in what I have to say. It's been entertaining y'all. You can now go back to your self congratulatory business as usual without further comment from me.

Trust me, Sycamore is not all happy with the current state of the nation.

Just my opinion (if in the event you are still reading), if you were to continue to argue the point, you could possibly affect change *that* way (by getting people to talk about it, and maybe even changing minds). But, that's just me: you handle yourself as you see fit.

I love you Trouble. I very much appreciated your earlier post where you gave some great quotes from the founding fathers (I like the one by Jefferson, especially). Its just that there were so many posts telling me that I was delusional that I was using up all my energy debating them. We need more thoughtful, well-informed young people like you. I wish you well in your studies, and thanks for being one of the few around here with an open mind.

Well, LJ, its your lucky day, my cold turned into a sinus infection and I had to put off my travel plans. That means I have nothing to do all day but play hardball with you big mean boys. You guys really like making assumptions, don't you? I DID have a CO detector installed by my step father. The little red "system functioning light" stayed on all the time. Unfortunately, that little light was a liar, and the CO detector was not functioning at all.

Now maybe you have so much free time and energy that you never have to prioritize your activities. Many of the rest of us do, however. Sorry, I hurt your tiny feelings by not putting a discussion with a group of ill-mannered people at the top of my list ("MY PUSSY HURTS"!? What a sophmoric, ill-mannered comment. Is that the best your great intellect can come up with?)

No, I "won't let the door hit me on the ass as I leave." Since I'm forced to stay home, I'll hang around here and be as crabby as any of you "gentlemen."

Oh, like you never got "pissy" yourself, SM, because one single person dared to question your perceptions. I've noticed how extremely polite and well-informed you've been throughout this entire discussion. Did you ever stop to think that maybe people get "pissy" when trying to discuss things with you because of your own "pissy" response (like the use of profanity in what is supposed to be a rational discussion)?

Thank you Lady S. I do appreciate your support, and my heart goes out to you over your situation.

Well, now that you have stomped off in a huff, and stomped right back, perhaps you'll be somewhat less arrogant as we go forward.

Your welcome to stay and play, but if you keep taking your ball and leaving like that, the other kids wont want to play with you anymore.

I'll be less arrogant if you all will. By the way, your first post did contain some good suggestions, and I had already started to do some of those things.

And I thank you once again. :)

I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. You didn't seem (to me, at least) like you were trolling or trying to start trouble, but just angry over your personal situation, which no one should have to go through.

Wow, I'm young again!

WOOHOO!

You'll always be an old fart to me :P
There are more deserving causes in the world but since you're an American I guess they don't really matter so try finding a charity that helps the people you're so worried about and give them a wad of cash.

More deserving causes than what? And is it YOUR belief that "since you're an American I guess they really don't matter"? I never stated any such thing. There are all sorts of very troubling things going on in both this nation and globally. I would assume that you would agree with that, although what troubles you might not trouble me and vice versa.

Are you saying that the only way to effect change is to throw wads of cash? Isn't that treating the symptom, rather than trying to find a cure to prevent the problem from happening in the first place? I think your suggestion could be considered fiscally irresponsible by some people.

And frankly, I lack the capacity to go out and solve global problems. I'm not supergirl. Dealing with what's going on in my own backyard is hard enough.

In my opinion, poverty is america, even as you describe has sweet fuck all on the way some people live. My experience has taught me to assume Americans are myopic as they come unless proven otherwise.

Giving money to charities so they can help the most disadvantaged is fiscally irresponsible and treating the symptom not the cause? What the fuck do you want to do? Change human nature? Shit happens and people end up at the bottom of the heap, they need a hand back up and charities can help do that. Fiscally irresponsible? How the fuck is it fiscally irresponsible? If you want to be fiscally responsible buy a few shares in a mutual fund. Helping people isn't fiscally responsible.

I personally give a fair amount to the causes I care about, they tend to be very specific if they involve people. That money goes directly to affecting the issues I care about. That's my best way of helping right now.

Poverty IS america? I assume you mean IN America. I reject your argument that just because this nation's poor are better off (supposedly) than the poor of some other nations that we don't need to be concerned with poverty in America. Its a bit like saying "Who cares that this guy has only one arm? Look at the person over there who's missing an arm and both legs!" especially when its concievable that you could help the man with one arm, but far more difficult to help the second since he lives 10,000 miles and an ocean away.

Americans ARE myopic. Have you ever traveled to a Third World Country? I have. Yes, we Americans are comparitively lucky. I have also traveled to various European countries which actually have a higher standard of living than does the US and provide all their citizens with health care as the US does not. From the perspective of a Swiss citizen, America is a barbaric place. Its all point of view and many Americans lack in perspective. You are right on that.

It is my personal experience that had I simply been given access to health care when I finally found out what had happened to me, I could have undergone treatment and voc rehab and gotten on my feet a long time ago. As it was, I had to subsist on charitable handouts and inadequate government subsidies which ended up costing everybody, taxpayers included, far more than what it would have cost to just give me a little medical attention in the first place. I WANTED to go back to work, but no one would give me the medical help I needed to do this.

So just WHAT are you saying in your last paragraph? "... they need a hand back up and charities can help do that...Helping people isn't fiscally responsible." Huh?

I'm swiss, british and australian. I've lived in all 3. I've been to Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, China, Indonesia in SE Asia alone. I'm not talking the tourist routes either. Don't try and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm changing for a career in financial analysis to photojournalism, I'm spending the rest of this year wandering some of the most godawful hellholes this planet has to offer.

You were the one who said something about helping people being fiscally irresponsible, not me. I found the idea farcical. You said yourself you survived on charitable handouts, surely they were kinda useful? Why not give back?

I pick my causes based on what I feel are the most pressing situations and issues, I don't feel poverty in America is, ever was, or ever will be anywhere near the most important.

Thirdly it's equally easy to help both, there are many charities that help people the world over all of which are equally accessible. Hell, jump on a website, enter your CC details and you've done your good deed for the day.

Also, you don't add up. How the hell does one go from having a personal secretary, which implies a fairly impressive job title, to abject poverty. Concept of saving and investment never enter your consciousness?

I did meen In but in retrospect there was something freudian about that.

I never said you didn't know what you are talking about. In fact, I agreed with you when you said that Americans are myopic. Why are you getting so defensive?

What I said is that throwing wads of money at a problem is not always the answer; that SOME people would consider that fiscally irresponsible. Certainly, many charities do fine work, and I am not trying to tell you which ones you should contribute to - that's a matter of personal conscience. In my case, I am simply looking for ways to solve root causes. This is my way of "giving back," trying to find ways so others won't have to go through what I did.

If you'd go back and read my post where I explained what happened to me, I mentioned that I spent 3 years becoming more and more incapacitated and that for the last year before I discovered what was wrong, I had no longer been able to work. I then spent a frustrating year trying to get back into the work place without medical treatment. After that I finally resigned myself to asking for government help. It took 4 years to get it. Sure, I had savings and investments. I had enough to last me 4 years with no money coming in. Most Americans don't even have that much in reserve. The final two years with no money were far from easy.

You said your heritage is part Swiss. So is mine. My family came from the Entlebuch area outside Luzern. Do you mind me asking which part of Switzerland your relatives came from?