SIDS(sudden infant death syndrome)
 

You don't die of SIDS. SIDS is a high fallutin' way of saying "uh, i dunno why the kid died"

I had a friend whos wife was pregnant at the same time that jinx was carrying my oldest. we went to the same lemas classes. his kid died at 4 months while his wife napped with him on her chest. The DR's said it was sids. this was 5 years ago and I had all but forgotten about it as I have not seen Rod for years, but last night, jinx was reviewing some vaccination records compared with infant death reports. It was disgusting. one after another, the kids died 2 or 3 days after having multiple vaccines administered, and one after another, the autopsy showed cause of death to be SIDS. In some cases, they died IN THE DR's OFFICE!....still...cause of death: SIDS.

Back then, I didn't know much about vaccines or SIDS. Just that the kid should sleep on his side or back, blah blah blah. I didn;t know then that, at 4 months old, Rod's child had probably just undergone a series of vaccines. I don't know if Parker had just visited the DR, but I suspect that he had.

I am suspicious of Doctors to begin with because of their consistently superior attitude, ridiculous work schedules when they train, and because of the back door incentives that play such a big role in their day to day. My gut says there must be something going on with money here. Why are doctors and coroners adverse to admitting that vaccines can kill you? Jinx was trying to talk to me about it last night, but after about 5 minutes, I have to admit that I wanted to escape from it. I did not want to know about it. I'ts too depressing. I was happier researching the damaging effects of microwave cooking. It's been bugging me today though. What a fucked up system we have for health care. how elementally wrong.

The good news is, if you want to avoid having immunizations, it's not too hard to do. My mother believed they were harmful, and to this day I don't know which ones I actually got and which ones she forged on my record.

The only ones I know for sure I got were a Tetanus booster when I cut my foot, and the Measles-Mumps-Rubella booster you get as an adolescent, because I was old enough to remember getting them.

it's not actually all that easy anymore, clod. In PA, you have to have attest to a strong religious like opposition to them. This means that you can;t pick and choose which vaccines you want to give your kids. If you don't want ALL of them, you can;t give them any. Public Schools make life very difficult for those who choose not to vaccinate. It was a big factor in our decision to go the private school route. not the only one, but a big one.

maybe I want to vaccinate my kids against polio, but not chicken pox. too bad.

doctors are on the take from pharmaceutical companies. Some of them even refuse to see patients that decline the vaccines they want to push. They have to maintain a certain ratio of vaccinated patients in order to get some hidden cash from somebody.......

I understand that money makes the world go 'round. I understand that without money, and the potential for monetary gain, our system doesn;t work, but shit like this is counterproductive and potentially dangerous. very potentially.

You misunderstood me, I didn't mean legitimately protesting the vaccines (impossible even when I was a kid, there were certain ones they would not let you come to school without.) I just meant good ol' fashioned lying and forgery.

My mother found a custom stamp company, and ordered a stamp to exactly match the one they had at a local clinic, said "Travis Co. Health Department" or something. (She figured if they asked, she'd claim she worked for them and they lost their stamp, but the stamp company didn't give a damn.) Then she just continually stamped my record and signed illegible fake names each time it was time for a new vaccination. No one ever questioned it.

yeah, wow, i totally missed this:most people don't have those kind of cajones. I salute your momma. I'd wager that you didn;t die of any of those diseases, either. We actually had a 23-25yr old doctor tell us that she had seen kids die from measels. or mumps or some dumb shit. said it right to our face. I was thinking, "you're MAYBE 25 yrs old......you probably haven't even seen a case measels at all".

We actually have a perfectly legal exemption for our kids (no need to forge anything jim). PA just combines religious and philosophical into one exemption.

There is no such thing as a 25 year old doctor.

High school - 12 years
college/premed - 4 years
med school - 4 years
residency - 2 years


unless she was a child genius, she had to have been more like 30.

just nitpicking here

Brian

well, maybe she was a resident. It was a practice called "kids first" in Paoli. I'm pretty good with guessing ages, and this person was no older than her mid twenties. The point was that she lied right to our face. Measels and mumps are both treatable diseases. Once you get it, you get better with minimal medical attention and bed rest. I see no need to give my kids a vaccine(MMR) that has been linked ( arguably) to the rising rates of autism. fuck that.

Brian, it's reasonably common for kids to skip a grade, and it's also reasonably common for folks (who know their major from the beginning) to finish college in 3 years. That right there puts you at 26 even after your residency.

And "child genius" is a little extreme, but think about it, most people who go to med school ARE of above-average intelligence.

Re: SIDS(sudden infant death syndrome)
 

True indeed. I oughta know: I am involved with doctors on one level or another just about every week now.

However, regarding vaccines: what is the ratio of children who have died from it to those who have not been affected by it?

I think that I got all my shots, but chicken pox I'm not sure of. God...if I didn't, I'm shit outta luck if I have to suppress my immune system for transplant.
:(

Re: SIDS(sudden infant death syndrome)
 

Is this information online? I'd like to see it.

Re: Re: SIDS(sudden infant death syndrome)
 

Yes it is.
The VAERS database can be searched here , or you can follow the link there to download the database by year.
You can visit the CDC Faststats site to look up morbidity/mortality of the various 'vaccine preventable diseases' here . For example you'll find;
Measles

(Data are for U.S. for year in parentheses)
Morbidity

Number of new measles (rubeola) cases: 116 (2001)

Number of new German measles (rubella) cases: 23 (2001)

Source/more data: Health, United States, 2003, table 52

Vaccination

Percent of children ages 19-35 months vaccinated against measles: 91 (2001)

Source/more data: Health, United States, 2003, table 71

Mortality

Number of deaths: 1 (2001)

Source/more data Deaths: Final Data for 2001


to answer Ladysycamores question. However, you can't just search for MMR related injuries on VAERS. Infants/newborns receive 4-5 vaccines at a time these days so it's really impossible to tell which one might have caused a reaction.

Personally, I don't think that MMR is the cause of the autism epidemic, although I wouldn't completely rule it out as factor.

I see no need for concern.

I remember that SIDS terrified me when Ash was a baby. I thought after a year, she was safe, but I recently heard of "SIDS" cases in children up to three years old....I wonder if the vaccinations have anything to do with that? I mean, I figure if the vaccinations are going to cause an adverse reaction, it'll happen before the child is three...but damn...Ash is only two-and-a-half....


Thanks, LJ, you just gave my paranoid butt one MORE reason to check my child's breathing several times a night....:( ;)



Sidhe

'course you don't. you don;t have any kids. and you don't plan on having them.

Shelby and I have the awesome and sometimes confusing responsibility of choosing the best path for our childrens' health and well being. Among other things. If you thought the risks of the vaccine outweighed the chance of your child dying from the diseases they want to vaccinate him/her from, then you might find cause for concern.


there was one death from measels. one. how many "sids" deaths occured from 0-3 days of a major or multiple vaccination? The tables i linked list vaccines by abbreviation. Most of those are multiple vaccine shots.
3 seperate vaccine doses applied on the same date.


DTP...3 vaccines....diptheria, tetanus, pertussis
HIBV.....several similar antigens to reduce the risk of menengitis
OPV.....oral polio vaccine

and what's worse is that in several cases, the kids were already fucked up with some other kind of malady, and the doctors gave them their vaccines anyway. Jinx showed me one last night that blew my mind. I can;t remember the details, but the kid was being treated for something heavy....she mentioned phenylbarbitol and siezures....he died hours after the shot, and the med report said something like " the kid was already pretty bad off, and we really don;t think the vaccines had much to do with his death" .....so, if this kid is dying, why the fuck are you giving him vaccines? agh! :mad:

you see no need for concern?

They claim that the new mercury-vaccines have nothing to do with autism, but I don't think I trust them a whole lot on that. A woman I worked with at the hospital said that her two-year-old grandson was a bright, active child until he got some kind of vaccine (I think it was the DTP). The child is now autistic. Granted, autism is more common among males than females, but how do you go from being a normal child to being an autistic child?

I made sure that they gave Ash the older, non-mercury vaccines, regardless of their assurances that the mercury vaccines were safe. The old ones didn't hurt me, so I figure they're just as safe for her.


Sidhe

i think that mercury is more apt to be in the older ones. Mercury is a heavy metal, and it's effects are cumulative. they use it in vaccines to kill live viri. you can also get mercury if you eat lots of salmon or tuna, among other sources.

jinx knows a lot about that. i can rememebr bits and pieces, but basically, my brain says..."mercury bad."

Hm...from what I've been told, they're putting small amounts of mercury in the new vaccines in order to preserve them, or make them last longer. I could be wrong. I'll have to check it out. Maybe it's some other kind of chemical....


Sidhe

No, Thimerosal (49% ethyl mercury) is no longer being used as a preservative in vaccines (in the same quantities it once was as of 1999) thanks to Rep Dan Burton of Indiana. There are lots of other lovely chemicals still in them though.

Actually, if I had kids, I wouldn't think twice about giving them vaccinations.

Nope...the data from your link is swiss cheese. And Jinx's data could be used to support vaccinations.

yeah, and your tongue could be used to prop up a wobbly table.

what;s your point? you disagree? you don;t think there is any risk involved in vaccination? you think the danger of the disease is worse than the danger of vaccine injury? or is your superior tone your entire argument?

i guess when i think about this, i think that the human race did just fine for thousands of years before we started trying to fix everything, and now, we have a little knowledge. a little knowledge is far more dangerous than none.

The human race did NOT do fine before vaccines came out.

The average age was somewhere in the forties, death by disease was virtually certain, food was generally poor quality and served as a host to many germs and virii. I sometimes suspect that this reason is why certain religions forbid pork and shellfish.

Modern medicine isn't a panacea for all of society's illnesses, but I'd rather be here NOW vs THEN.

Oh yeah, I had the live and dead versions of most vaccines (thank you very much, navy medical) more than once and have yet to have any ill effects. All in all, I'd vaccinate my child. With ALL of em. and not worry too too much about possible side effects.

Brian

You know, I've never met a dopesmoker as anal retentive as you. Don't read so hard into things.

The data you presented is full of holes--I wouldn't personally draw any conclusions from it. Not to mention, it's a very small number of incidents. What I said about Jinx's numbers stands. Based on the information I've read and seen, I believe the benefits of vaccines outweigh any dangers.

well, i do believe that the decision should be a personal one, and if you feel like the safest thing for you to do is to vaccinate your kids with all 30 odd shots/boosters before they're 2 yrs old, then i respect that. I just think that you should be aware of the danger. If my kids died or got sick from a shot that I decided to give him/her, i don;t know what i'd do. If my kid got mumps or chicken pox or measels, i'd take him to the doctor, and get him well. you see what i'm saying?

this is just the tip of a huge debate that goes on. some of the vaccines, like chicken pox, that are required in more and more schools, were tested for very short time periods, and lose effectiveness in the childs teenage years. if you get chixpox when you're 19 and in college, you're in deep shit. same with measels.

the data posted can be manipulated to argue whatever point you want, just like most data. I'm saying that there IS cause for concern, whether you see it or not. do some digging on your own, but if you are faced with this decision, please be aware of the danger of multiple and aggressive vaccination schedules.

I think that this is the most import, present, issue at hand.

A protracted regimen may stress the system less.

anal retentive? from my understanding, anal retentive means that you are particular about details and order. an anal retentive person has a compulsion to correct minor errors and work out soultions to the nth degree. were you just saying that for a laugh, or do i not understand the true meaning of anal retentive?

http://cellar.org/2002/pearlhives.jpg

Vaccine allergy reaction

It would also make it easier to track down dangerous vaccines and hot lots. Once a vacine is added to the schedule and given with several other vaccines at once, any problems it may cause could be harder to identify as having been caused by it. Unless, as in the case with Rotashield, the problems it causes (intussception) are evident during the trials but it's approved anyway. It's interesting that Dr. Paul Offitt, who is chief of infectious diseases at CHOP, is the patent holder for Rotashield which he developed on Merk's dime. Dr. Offitt is also on the FDA advisory commitee that approved the Rotashield vaccine (he voted in favor of it ;) However he abstained from the vote on whether to pull the vaccine after a few infants died from it, citing a conflict of interest. ).
I remember someone here admonishing me about taking advice from doctors who are trying to sell me something. Gave me a little giggle...

And synergistic reactions as well.

whoa. lumpy. is that recent?

3 years ago, she's better now.

You misspelled "solutions".

Why? Because millions have been vacinated for a long time. There used to be a lot of deaths from most of the "childhood" diseases. I remember the terror of polio and seen firsthand the devastation it causes. Are they able to do that? Can they do anything but let it run it's course?:confused:

Oh, the irony. funny, perth. verrrrry funny

If it's a virus, short of getting vaccinated beforehand, you just have to let it run its course. That's what irks me about doctors who give you medicine for a cold or the flu. They cannot yet KILL a virus, so all they're doing is breeding more resistant bacteria....

And in reply to a reply, way back in the day, one could get a massive infection from a little cut, and die...nowadays, we don't think twice about a paper cut, but back then, it could lead to gangrene, and because of the lack of knowlege among doctors, getting the gangrene treated (ie, cutting off your gangrenous part) was pretty much a death sentence. Doctors didn't wash their hands or anything....all that came during and after the civil war, if I remember correctly.


Oh, and Jinx, thanks for the info.


Sidhe

Thought you might like that. :)

they can treat the symptoms like they do for the flu, ad make sure you don't die from dehydration or fever or someshit. they're not lethal diseases. encephalitis can be fatal, or permanantly damaging ( autism)


well, that's part of my issue with the way we're doing things. I think for diseases like polio, the vaccine can save lives. but i'll be damned if i'm vaccinating my kids for chicken pox. or measels. at this point there is virtually no risk of contracting polio or measles, so why are vaccines nearly compulsory?

also, as i recall, the incidence of those diseases had already significanlty fallen off BEFORE they started mass vaccination.

source

you are indeed correct. in fact, most medical advances are directly traceable to war.

but more importantly i am coming up on my 100th post. are you all going to throw me a party, or throw me out?

Well, no technically we don't have any reason for concern as a parent would, however, I am guessing that if we did have a child, we would go ahead and vaccinate that child. Considering that I know about weighing the pros and cons of certain treatments and medications, I'd err on the side of preventing catching the disease WITH the knowledge of the *possible* side effects of the vaccination.

For instance, do I continue to stay on peritoneal dialysis and risk my health slowly deteriorating to nothing, multiple hospital stays, interference with life in general, or do I get the transplant, and run the risk of catching god knows what from the immunosuppressants lowering my immune system, run the risk of cancer and the other side effects? Basically, I'm going to trade off one set of circumstances for another. IMO, either choice is a no "win" situation, because something is bound to happen negatively either way. Nothing is guaranteed.

Same with vaccinations, IMO. Either you vaccinate the child and run the risk of the side effects (yes, even death), or do nothing, and run the risk of the child catching something and *possibly* dying from that.

That's just how I see it.

Hm..death by vaccine or by chicken pox or measles:

Varicella Disease (Chickenpox)


Measles

The risk runs either way.

i'd have quoted this from your link, lsyc, but its a pdf.....

to summarize....the vaccine is typically administered at 12-18 mos, and should last 20 yrs.

of the varicella incedences, 5% are people over 20yrs old....however, 55% of ALL varicella deaths occur in this age group.

put that together with the fact that if you contract varicella, you are then immune forever, and you should see that that particular vaccination, is in fact harmful. you just get it again later in life when it is much more dangerous.

Though I could get away with "anal-retentive"--and it sounds better--a better term would have been "wound up."

Mayo Clinic

For what it's worth, anyway...

Mumps and chickenpox used to be part of the normal childhood experience ... one, in fact, that had moms scanning the neighborhood trying to find another kid that had it in order to get their kids infected, over with it, and to assure that they wouldn't get it later in life when it can be dangerous.

I had mumps in early elementary school, and unfortunately never got exposed to chicken pox until I was in high school ... had a reasonably mild case, luckily.

I did get vaccinated for Measles and German Measles.

As part of my employment I had to get the Hep-B RNA Vaccine.

so i was thinking about the math here....and of the 4,000,000 cases reported each year, 5% being 20+ yr old patiens represent 200,000 cases. if 55% of the 100 annual chpx deaths is 55 deaths among 20+ yr olds, that means that if you get it after 20 yrs old, you have a .000275 chance of dying from it

if you are in the other age group, (3,8000,000 cases reported) and 45 deaths among them, you have a .0000118421 chance of dying from it.

.000275 vs. .0000118421 chance of dying from varicella
over 20 v. under 20 yrs old

the vaccine is only 85% effective, and although it's supposed to last 20 years, they've only been doing it for 9, so who knows how long it will REALLY last.

the moral?

make sure your kid gets chicken pox as a child....just like our parents did for us.

i don't know. didn't you see what happened when the parents on south park pulled that one on their kids. time to hide the toothbrush if you do.

Now add this to the equation - actually getting chickenpox confers lifelong immunity. That natural immunity can protect a growing fetus or a nursing infant. The vaccine can not.
Women around my age are in this position now with rubella, a perfectly harmless illness if we would have contracted it as children, possibly devestaing to a fetus if we are exposed during pregnancy because the vaccination has worn off.

We decided to do it. Everybody else got the chicken pox vaccine, so our kids wouldn't be exposed. A real problem I have with it is that it could push out the time when folks might catch chicken pox into a more dangerous period of life. We really don't know the impact of this program other than drug makers cashing in. It pisses me off that I rolled over on this one when my doctor couldn't give me a good reason other than my kids were not going to be exposed.

I asked somebody knowlegable about the autism / vaccination connection. He said there was a pretty good study debunking that one. I'll have to look for it. The problem is that onset of autistic symtoms tends to happen in the same timeframe as early childhood vaccinations. We naturally see causation.

Yikes. Guess I'm fucked because I never had it. :eek:

Mercury Linked to Autism-Like Damage in Mice

Institute of Medicine Says Study Does Not Support Link Between Mercury, Autism in Humans

http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/88/99936.htm

do you have ANY idea what you're talking about?!
 

Listen, buddy. I may be seventeen years old, but I had a son when I was fifteen. He died at the age of five months, and no matter how many investigations were conducted, nobody could find any reason why he died. He hadn't had his immunizations, but he wasn't sick or infected with anything. He had nothing wrong with his breathing or his little heart. He slept in a safe environment. So next time you want to dis something that has torn people apart inside without going through it yourself, think first. It's extremely painful not knowing why my son died.

Welcome to the Cellar, thou_shall_not_fall. :D

I have to assume you're responding to lumberjim's original post, since you didn't specify. I suggest you go back and read it again. The only thing he's "dissing", is the habit of the medical profession of labeling children's deaths as SIDS, without investigating all possible causes.

SIDS has been around a long time. It is still a poorly understood condition. But there are some things known about it. This is an example of some of the most recent research. Smart people are still trying to understand it but alas they will have to keep trying.

http://search.medscape.com/all-search?queryText=SIDS

we're not buddies. sorry about your kid, Mike.

Well I lost my 9/11 to SIDS. You insensitive cock.

Merc, that poor noob is never going to get that.

Thou/fall, that was an in-joke. Don't mind him.

True Dat. Given I've worked in health care for over 30 years most people wouldn't even get it unless you did. We find humor in human tragedy everyday. You have to do so to maintain your sanity.

There is new research suggesting that SIDS is caused by rebreathing the same air, so researchers suggest that having a fan turned on in the room where the child is sleeping in order to create airflow may help.

SIDS deaths have decreased remarkably since the mid 80's although still no one really knows exactly what causes a child to die for no apparent reason.

About the chicken pox vaccination. My kids weren't vaccinated against it purely because it wasn't available here in Australia at the time they were born. They did both contract chickenpox...TWICE...so I don't agree and have positive proof that simply contracting an illness like chickenpox is enough to save you from having it ever again.

My kids are immunized against everything else though. I think it's irresponsible not to immunize.