Faith... to what/whom?
 

<Pomp and Circumstance playing in background> During the last few days, fellow celarites have unearthed the question that has solidly endured since time inmemmorial: Does a deity exist, and can you prove it?

<music streaks out, like in a record>...enough with the big words. let's get to businness.

I believe that God does exist. < that right there, my friends, is a PERIOD. get it? P-E-R-I-O-D.

You want proof? here is the proof! the earth, sky, sea, the animals, plants, every living organism, humans,... the universe as a whole.

How else can you explain the almost natural shape in the stars of Orion, of Leo, of the Ursa major with the big dipper? they look almost realistic, right? Check an astronomy atlas if in doubt.

How else can you explain that every single particle in this universe is composed of 92 natural elements?

How else can you explain that living matter exist? show me at least one person who has created a life-form or an organism out from scratch, and I'll show you God who has created a countless number of Living organisms created from the nothingness of the void.

how else can you explain our own selves? Masters of the Earth ruling over all other organisms. we have subdued and erradicated polio. we have conquered over infectious diseases. We have increased in knowledge from working with stones and sticks being naked in the field surrounded with ferocious animals, to become people who work with computers, cars, modern technoloy; dressed in clothes and having the wild animals in the zoo.

how else can you explain the perfect turn of the Earth aroud the Sun and about itself?you think is not important right? wrong! if the Earth were to stop, the lit side would rise to tempertatures up to 145*F whilst the dark side becomes as cold as the Antartica. So tell me, has any one ever applied any single significant amount of energy to the Earth so that it may keep on spinning?

How else can you explain the continuous growth of the Christian Chruch? compared to other religions, it is one of the few religions that have survived more than 2000 years. yet is the only religion that cares for the worshiper. Ex. a man is stuck in an old well and he is drowning. along comes Confucius and says, "you should have listened and obeyed my teaching, but now... good riddance" and he goes away, next comes Siddartha Gautama (Buddha) and says, " well, you are not enlightened, so I can't help you.

you are still strugling to get out, shout, paddle,...in short, you try every thing to get out. you try drugs in your pocket, but they only add to the problem. you try sex, but it doesn't work. you pull out you wallet and check that you have enough money. so you sign a $10,000 check and start shouting to someone to pull you out. so here comes your boss, and says that he will pull you out if you give the check in the pail that you are grabbing to. so you do it, but he starts to run away with the check and leaves the pail in the surface.

minutes later you are getting ready to die, because the walls are slippery, the well is so wide, you can't get out by yourself, and it's extremely deep. you were told that the well is 125 ft deep.

here then comes Jesus and throws a rope with a metal bar securely tied to it and shouts. "Grab on, I'll get you out!"

so the question is: Do you grab the rope or not?

...

You left the right answer off of the list of choices.

"Can't prove if he does or doesn't exist."

Believing in God is an act of faith. There is no proof of God.

If you believe in God, you tend to see signs of Him in the things around you. If you don't believe, you don't see those signs.

It's not logical. Don't try to make it logical.

must ... resist ... urge ....


.... too ... much ... real .... work .... to do


must ... not ... post .... 90 pages ..... dissertation ..... on religious ..... philosophy.





-sm

So is he asking for an assertion of faith or an attempt at an empirical proof?

Re: Faith... to what/whom?
 

So we have to stop right there, at the "PERIOD. get it?", and you, TR can go right on and argue your case?
No no no no, no fair. Of course, you can believe what you will, Tomas, but why should I read your post? (I didn't). I, too, can believe what I will.

[smug]And I won't even ask you to read about it.[/smug]

Edited to make the SMUG stand out a bit more!

You know you wanna....Do it! DO IT!

Besides, I love reading your posts. You have a great way of expressing your ideas.


Sidhe

Faith requires no proof and asserts against contradictory evidence (without proof).

So what is the point?

the Problem is that some people, don't have faith at all. that they want proof.

of course faith is required. I mean, the rope that JC threw is not logical, and it shouldn't be. because the order ot this realm is not the same order in eternal places like Hevaen or Hell.

While I'm sure others can do a better job and I'm simply not patient enough to do it throughly:

Gravity of the sun?

How many galaxies, how many solar systems how many planets....

See above.

and I really want to know what you're doing down a well with a hooker, a checkbook, a pen and a line of cocaine. Secondly, like most other diseases the church is in recession in the developed world and growing in the 3rd world.

Argh, I can't be bothered, someone do this properly, it doesn't look like a real challange.

Ah, well, there you go.

The only good thing about this thread is about can vote that god does and doesn't exist. I like that kind of pluralism in thought.

Tomas, if you are going to bring other spiritual beliefs into your little story, you need to at least understand what you are talking about. Buddhism has been around longer than Christianity, by the way. If the Buddha happened to be strolling past your person stuck in the well, he would simply pull the person out, no questions asked; and go on his way. He would not demand that this person become enlightened either before or afterward.

You cannot give empirical scientific proof of the existance of God. The examples you site are proof of the laws of physics and evolutionary science. Your statement that man is the apex of creation is parochial, at best. Man is busily destroying whatever God may have created here on earth.

Either you believe in God or you don't. This is why its called "faith" in God.

God doesn't want to be proven. How else can he discern the faithful?

Speaking of Buddha, do we have any Buddhists here?

Bigfoot must exist. I know there are no bigfoot bones, and no proof, but there are trees and rocks and mountains and only bigfoot could have made them so that proves he must exist. Look at the perfect shape of a pinecone and tell me there's no bigfoot to create it.

How else could we have trees and rocks and mountains if bigfoot didn't create them?

I follow buddhist theory

Jag, out of curiousity, from what I'fe read of Buddhism it seems to me that it's more of a philosophy than a religion. Is that accurate?

I imagine Christianity can be argued to be a philosophy as well, but the distinction I'm trying to make is that my understanding of Buddhism indicates that there is no faith in a diety required. That Buddha is treated as more of an enlightened man, deserving of admiration and respect, but no more so than any other "good" person.

this is the only post i will enter on this thread and then i don't think i will ever read it again - because i really like most of what lumberjim says, but if you aren't aware TR - you are jumping up and down on LJ's asshole button.


here is my view: God exists. I believe in the trinity, I believe in salvation, I believe in the crucifixion and resurrection.

I believe - this means it is not proven. It is my FAITH.

something that requires faith by necessity isn't proveable or unproveable. if it was we'd look up the answer and say, "oh there it is." then it is no longer faith, it is knowledge.

I have faith in christ's redeeming blood. i have knowledge that this can't be proven during my life.

Nonsense, I'm right here.:)

I just subscribe to the idea of a very elaborate deus ex machina..

And that proves there's a god because.......?


Some people just don't get it. Your existance doesn't prove there's a god. Pointing to a tree or a bird or even your central nervous system doesn't prove there's a god. That is no different than saying you can prove that people were put on earth by UFO Aliens because we're here. It's circular logic and holds no merit.

I have no "faith" in anything that can't be proven to exist. Introduce me to the being you call god and let me see him or her face to face and let me test this so-called diety. Then and only then will I believe there's a god. Don't point to a deed you attribute to god. Don't point to a footprint and claim it was made by God. Let me meet god and see him do something that only "god" can do and I'll have all the faith in the world. Until you do provide such evidence, the burden of proof rests squarely on the shoulders of the believers.

Belief is not provable. The moment you do it stops being faith and the bottom kind of falls out of religion.

I think a lot of people have that: the faith that somehow, somewhere, there's gonna be a miracle that will get me out of all of this shit.

Radar, who shit on your muffin this morning?

Bruce was joking.

Undertoad, I was thinking that this morning while I was doing an inspection of a sewer, and I was 6 metres down a manhole.

Although perhaps I was thinking of "shit" in a slightly more literal sense.

Of course, one person has to fail to get the joke.

I bet God gets all the jokes.

I imagine Bruce could answer that one. :D

"God Shuffled His Feet"
--Crash Test Dummies

After seven days
He was quite tired so God said:
"Let there be a day
Just for picnics, with wine and bread"
He gathered up some people he had made
Created blanket and laid back in the shade

The people sipped their wine
And what with God there, they asked him questions
Like: do you have to eat
Or get your hair cut in heaven?
And if your eye got poked out in this life
Would it be waiting up in heaven with your wife?

God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them;
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him

So he said:"Once there was a boy
Who woke up with blue hair
To him it was a joy
Until he ran out into the warm air
He thought of how his friend would come to see;
And would they laugh, or had he got some strange disease?

God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them;
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him

The people sat waiting
Out on their blankets in the garden
But God said nothing
So someone asked him:"I beg your pardon:
I'm not quite clear about what you just spoke
What that a parable, or a very subtle joke?"

God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them;
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him

if we find the person who gets all the jokes does that prove the existence of God?

Well, there's me, but I am the humblest of "stream entrants." ;)

"Namaste'", Bruce. The Buddha Nature within me salutes the Buddha Nature within you. ;)

faith in humanity...but the damn power hungry religious zealots and evangelists keep warping it.

And the Flames.;)

Since Jag has probably gone to sleep and I have nothing better to do, I'll attempt to answer your question, Perth.

Buddhism in its purest form is very akin to philosophy. The Buddha himself never claimed to be a deity. When asked what he was, the Buddha merely replied, "I am awake." In one of the Buddhist teaching stories the students of the Buddha asked him about God and the after life. The Buddha replied, "Some things are unknowable by man. What you must concentrate on is what you are doing now, in this moment. You worry about this or that. This may happen, now that. This may be the afterlife or that. A man who occupies his mind so throws his life away because he no longer lives in this moment. It is in this moment which we live. Nothing else need concern you."

There are no Buddhist equivalents to our Christian missionaries. Buddhists believe that if you wish to follow the Buddha's teachings (the dharma), you may do so. If you wish to follow some other path that's fine also. Buddhist monks did travel in much of India and China and Japan. The people of these regions altered Buddhist thought to meet their own needs. Tibetan Buddhism, for example, is very mystical with many Bodisattva's (Saints - sort of) and different manifestations of the Buddha which are worshipped as deities. Even Tibetan Buddhism, however, adheres to the basic Buddist teachings of the "4 Noble Truths" and the "Eightfold Noble Path" and "anhimsa" or non harming of all living beings.

End of lecture. If you want to know more than that its readily available thru a google search on the internet.;)

Thanks Mari. :)

Thou art god.

Drink deeply.

marichiko is right, I had gone to bed and she's done a good job of answering the question too.

I find buddhist philosophy rather enlightened (not intended as a bad pun or sorts) and have found it helpful in dealing with the world, to date the happiest/most content people I have met have been buddhist monks.

The vibe I get from Buddists is, don't worry, be happy, take everything in stride and it will be what it will be.
Bet the Gumint would like us all to be Buddists.:)

NICE!

but i bet bigfoot won't condemn you to an eternity of tortuous damnation if you fail to believe in him in this life.

tom, your post is indicitive of the idiocy of most christians that give their religion a bad name.

not to say that there aren't any christians that understand the personal nature of spirituality and respect other people's belief systems. there are several here that "get it". you, apparently are not among them. When you put up a poll like that, and then give us "the right answer".....what's the point of the poll?

the fact that you have faith in The Lord is fine and dandy with me....I hope you and God have a fine time up in heaven if you don't fuck it up in this 60+ years that you'll live on earth. But don't try to tell me that I'm wrong about what I believe and you're right. thats just stupid and hypocritical.

the natural phenomenon that you listed as proof could just as likely be coincedental. In fact, it's more likely that they are...mathmatically speaking. I mean, listing the constellations as proof? what are you retarded? we drew pictures around the stars, and wrote the stories to go with them.....and they only vaguely resemble the characters or GODS (non christian gods, of course) that they were originally named for. that's not proof! it's not even admissable as evidence......

sorry... i wasn't done yet....

if the natural world is proof enough for you, that's just super.

it's not for me. I think "god's" involvement in our planet ended when he/she/it created whatever went BANG in the big bang.....but i can't prove it.

Jim, you have to understand, that to be a true Christian, a person has to have absolute faith. If they say “that’s what I believe, but I could be wrong and you could be right”, then they don’t have absolute faith, hence are not true Christians. While I do maintain that Christians that feel they must save everyone else’s soul, are the most obnoxious people on earth, I understand why they can’t accept that you *might* be right in your beliefs. It’s a catch 22. What you believe, you’ve derived by what you feel is a logical thought process and apparently are offended that they won’t say you could be right, therefore casting aspersions on your thinking ability. But that’s not true. Actually it would be hypocritical of them to say you might be right.:)

i can't beleive that that never dawned on me. what a razors edge to walk.....thanks, bruce

i understand better now. no, really. thanks

Actually, Christians are OK. It's the other 9x% that *think* they are Christians, that fuck everything up.:haha:

Too true, good christians aren't bad people, they do however hold the most boring new years eve parties ever in the history of mankind, just a warning.

Not to mention the worst weddings.

No alcohol, no music, no dancing at the reception.

One of my coworkers is going to one of these this weekend.

There's also usually at least one male relative who gets overtaken by fervor in the midst of either the service or reception and stands up and makes the speech about how it is the duty of the wife to submit to her husband, etc.

People know not to invite me to such weddings.

The combination of firearms and access to perscription drugs would indeed suggest that be wise ;)

In other Christian news, Creed just broke up.

THEY WERE CHRISTIANS?

now i know why i never liked their stuff.

Actually, the government would be extremely upset to wake up one morning to discover that the population had turned Buddhist over night. Since Buddhists believe in anhimsa or non-harming, there would be no one to serve in the military. The government might draft them, but they wouldn't turn their weapons on another human being. That is why it was so easy for the Chinese to walk over Buddhist Tibet (and I'm not here to argue whether pacifism is good or bad, just stating a tenet of Buddhist belief). The cattlemen's association would have to become the diaryman's association, and poultry farmers would have to switch to the egg business since Buddhist's are vegetarian. There would be no one willing to work in the arms industry or anything related to the defense industry. All in all, I don't think Uncle Sam would be too pleased. I wonder what would happen to the concept of freedom of religion in the event of such a miraculous mass conversion? ;)

are eggs vegetables?

I believe eggs are a type of nut.

Some Buudhists will eat them. I guess you'd have to check with the Dali Lama if you were really worried about this (or possibly the abortion thread).

;)

HOW 'BOUT FISH?

Nope, fish are out - defiantely living beings not to be harmed.

caviar?

Only if taken from the fish in a painless mannr. Many Buddhists enjoy the occasional scrambled eggs and caviar breakfast.;)

Many buddhists must then live in a bizarre fantasyland, where salmon are not killed to have the eggs scraped out of their innards.

I drink from the pool of wisdom that is buddhism.

I often begin meditations by reflecting on the words of the Daily Lama ... (my own joke-name for a day book of quotes by the Dalai Lama)

I however, eat from the table of Odin. Another haunch of oxen, please? And can I have fries with that?