questions about "pagan"? religion/s
 

If pagan is a poor choice of words, please correct me.

full disclosure first: I'm in the process of reading The Da Vinci Code, and I am atheist. And in my opinion a reasonably well informed atheist.

I have no issues with faith, and in some ways I envy those who have it, I just pretend to possess faith.

Ok, now on to what I'm really wondering:

Are "pagan" and earth based synonomous? or closely related?

Do these religions have basis predating most "mainstream" religion?

Are any of these religions focused on balance? Yin and Yang if you will.

Is there a supreme being or beings? If so, is s/he/it a creator?

Reading this book is getting the religious juices flowing again. Thinking about faith, and moving away from "mainstream" ideas. I've always belived that the bible was a fabrication of man (chosen specifically), specifically men in power. And most things created by people in power are to concentrate and reinforce that power; not for the greater good.

I've got many more questions, but I've got to write them down, else I will forget when I sit down to type. As is usually the case.

S'funny you should mention this. I was browsing a couple of threads about this sort of thing in this very Cellar only a couple of days ago ...
Try I'm a birdbrain where the discussion started and then Christians and Pagans where it continued, on and off ...
Enough to get you started, anyhoo.

Well, first of all, you have to define what you mean by "pagan" religion. Do you mean Wiccan belief, for example? Are you talking about Native American spiritual practices? Or are you talking about the early "earth mother/fertility goddess" based beliefs practiced by most early European groups?

Yes, these practices were around long before Christianity came into favor. They were largely about men coming to terms with the mysterious and often unpredictable whims of Mother Nature, so I suppose that you could say that in that sense they were about being in balance with nature.

It is a tried and true method to force a conquered people to accept the conquer's religion and give up their own. A people's spiritual practice defines them as much as their language does. Notice how conquerers will also force those whom they subjugate to give up their own language. We did this with the native Americans, taking their children away to boarding schools where they were forced to speak English and punished for talking in their native tongue.

Organized religion can indeed be a way of maintaining the status quo and keeping the people under control. In the Middle Ages Kings claimed their position by the divine right given them by God, so to go against the King was to in effect go against God.

As Joseph Campbell said, "A religous experience is often what prevents us from having a spiritual experience."

Are you asking if pagans believe in a supreme being/creator or are you asking that question more generally? I know that according to Native American belief there is indeed a supreme being. In Navajo belief, for example, there was First Man and First Woman (gods if you like) who gave birth to a personage known as Changing Woman. Changing Woman created all the plants and animals and created the Navajo people from bits of her own skin. She married the sun and gave birth to twins, the two Monster Slayers who rid the earth of all the demons that once lived here. The Navajo still have a very beautiful ceremonial given to them by Changing Woman called the "Blessing Way." In this ceremonial, one asks to be allowed to "walk in beauty" - that is walk in harmony with the earth and all living beings.

It seems to me that Pagan meant "whatever was there when the Romans invaded", until the Romans converted to Christianity. At that point, the original Roman religion was Pagan too. Also, any religion that had not yet been discovered by Europeans at that point was considered Pagan when it was discovered.

Well, technically, "pagan" comes from "paganus," which meant, in the day, "country bumpkin." Basically, christianity hit the cities first, and only gradually trickled down into the countryside, where most worshipped a pantheon of sorts. Therefore, anyone who lived in the country was referred to as a "pagan," indicating that they weren't christian.

To put it simply, all wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are wiccan. Pagan, in my experience, has generally meant any religion that is earth-based--God/dess oriented--balance oriented. Pagan religions tend to see god reflected in nature, and so have a respect for nature. They tend to try to align themselves with nature's rhythms, for instance. Most that I've seen believe in reincarnation, in being here to learn and coming back until we're done; they may believe in a pantheon of gods that, in reality, are only facets of a single being; many believe in karma biting you in the ass for things you do that you know are wrong, and most I've seen are non-proseletyzing and believe in tolerance for all religious paths.

That's what I've experienced being a pagan. It may not be like that everywhere. I don't do covens, so I don't have a lot of experience with hierarchy and groups. Most I know are solitaries, and they range from Greek, Roman, Italian, Native American, Norse, Voudoun, and hedge/kitchen-witch types. All of them, at least the ones that I know, have had the same basic beliefs. Certainly not a massively representative group, but there it is.



Sidhe

I've always found the easiest way to describe "Pagan" to someone is to say that it is pretty much anything that isn't Christian, Muslim or Buddhist, at least, that is how the whole thing seems to me. People at least think you aren't a complete lunatic if you tell them you are one of the "Big Three", and you can even get away with telling people you follow Native American beliefs and not have them wave garlic at you.

Anything else, though, and the "normal" people will start moving away from you in a crowded room. And I like it that way! :)

Look at a Zebra and THINK.

Look at acres of land after a wildfire and THINK.

Watch a birth, get to know one of those elderly couples who have been togethor 60-70 years, get up early and watch a sunrise, and THINK.

I have a real hard time with the soup & spark crowd.

That is actually quite beautifully put, blue. Poetic, even.

Particularly given that you are drunk and horny, and therefore only moderately capable of rational thought.

(just kiddin'. you know I lust after you in my heart.)

So where did the supposed intelligent designer come from, then? We assume everything had to be created because the only way we know how to accomplish anything is through action with a goal in mind.

The universe just *is*. It does what it does because it cannot do anything else.

Doesn't God say somewhere "I am that I am"? What's the major difference between that notion and the notion about the universe which I just postulated?

Guess what, now I'm hung over & horny ;-(

I don't have the answer 'spode, I just don't believe it's random.

Look at the fossil record and THINK

Look at man's tendency to make up stories about things he doesn't understand, and THINK

Look at all the information we have learned about the universe, and THINK

I have a real hard time with people who get obnoxious and moronic when they drink.

I've read and continue to read Sagan, Clarke, Hawking, Wells, Azimov, Heinlen and I think and think and think and still have no fucking idea!
So many ideas and theories ( well supported usually) for and agin.
I loathe the idea there is no rationale behind our existence but, simultaneously, reject the notion of omniescent omnipotence.
I prefer to confine myself to mundane pursuits, friends, drinking, playing, sex, etc and leave the angst to the clerics and philosophers.
Much like this post, I could debate this issue forever and ever and ever but it would be entirely unprovable in either direction and ultimately, pointless.

Perhaps I'm too drunk. I can't see how Blue was being obnoxious?

THINK!

When it comes to logic, I have as much trouble with the concept that the Universe just *is* as I do that God just *is.* I keep going back to the thought I posted in another thread, why should there be a universe? Why should matter and energy exist? Wouldn't nothing existing be much simpler?

If I choose the God theory, I'm left with the question of where did God come from? Who was her Mom and Dad? Why does she allow "bad things" to happen? I don't know, though. There's something aboout looking up into a starry night sky or seeing a magnificient meteor shower. There's something about looking into my own soul. I am left with the feeling that a higher intelligence does exist. If I'm wrong, its not going to hurt me any. I'll just die and my remains will go back into the earth and someday I'll be a tree or a flower which is okay by me.

And moronic even? UT man, where did the love go?

I maybe didn't state it eloquently but things like human emotion, and especially nature sometimes kind of blow my mind. And I don't doubt fossils & evolution, but I just don't believe it's all just chemicals and randomness.

It wasn't random, blowing your mind isn't thinking, and when you say you got a hard time with me I address it.

Here's something I read several years ago. It made my head hurt. Perhaps you'll get it, and can explain it to me. It seems to make sense in some wildly confusing way. This link used to be the first result that came up when you Googled "Why does anything exist at all?"


http://www.hedweb.com/nihilism/nihilf01.htm

Precisely. It's not an idea that's easier to get your head around. My thinking is, we know the universe exists, but we don't know if God does. Therefore, it's slightly simpler for the universe to be eternal than for the universe to be created by an intelligence which is eternal.

I'm no physicist, but to me the argument this person is making could be simplified to this: You have two givens: n and -n. When added together they give a sum total of zero, therefore, nothing exists. The problem with that logic is that n and -n are not intersecting sets of variables. If they were, then "nothing" would indeed exist. However, "something" does still exist, and play all the fancy footwork with advanced physics that you want, here the universe still is. I don't buy it.

For some reason, what I got out of it was basically "there are two possible ways things could be...either something exists, or nothing does. Obviously, something exists."

So you call me an annoying drunk moron? Now I've made a few posts that would have deserved that reaction, but not this one.

You hadn't even posted in the thread so I'm baffled how it was I "got a hard time with you."???

Blowing my mind isn't thinking? I find some things about life so unexplainably fascinating, have as long as I can remember....that's one of the biggest reasons I have in my belief that there's something bigger than just science going on.

One of my favorite things about this place is that I've never felt I had to be "careful" in what I say. I don't expect everyone to love me, I crack wise a lot, and post things that can be misconstrued, but most people can see it's sarcasm, or teasing like I do with LJ, etc.

I had a couple little spats with Syc & Marichiko for example, that was heat of the moment stuff and we pm'd and made nice. When I'd been seriously an ass, and knew that I was being an ass, I apologized and or went out of my way to let them know that I was at fault.

So aside from being a smartass, I think I'm generally getting along here, not trying to be obnoxious or pissing people off just for the sake of it like a few.

So what did I do to piss you off exactly? Just irritated in general with me? Must be something substantial cause ripping into me like that out of the blue was kind of cold.

Me: just sitting here

You: (implying we don't THINK) "I have a real hard time with the soup & spark crowd."

You started it

(Otherwise, quit thinking of me as different from all the other posters please)

Well, you could be right. I have alot of difficulty with taking in that kind of information these days. You probably should get someone's else's opinion over mine. I'm not trying to make anyone believe in a greater intelligence, anyway. I figure if God needs for you to believe in her, she'll probably tap you on the shoulder one of these days. Or maybe not. Or maybe my own belief is misguided. Who knows? Live and let live sez I. ;)

THINK
 

No, that wasn't what I meant at all. I wasn't implying anything other than the fact that some people look but don't see anything special about all the little miracles. Don't take the time to really consider how special some seemingly ordinary things are.

I started what? I made a comment about my beliefs, you called me an idiot.

I'd like to think I don't think of you any different, but I've read your posts regularily for about a year, you like many others have earned my respect (not always my agreement) so if you think I'm a jerk it bugs me a little more than someone I don't know from Adam.

Still tho, and I'll put it bluntly as is my nature...What the fuck did I do to you?

I don't think of you as a jerk at all. You just poked me in the ribs. If you poke all the time, you're a jerk, but you don't.

This might be a good time to take a break. I also got my ass reamed out in real life today. For the life of me I'm still not sure what I said wrong here OR there??

So, step back, take a big deep breath...(note to self, don't start some big overdramatic thread saying you're leaving).

Usually when my wife hates me you love me and vice versa, but everybody thinks I'm a dickhead today apparently.

So I'll sign off for a bit, take a good long look at myself, might be back.

I DID NOT poke you in the ribs. Not intentionally.

It's my fault, because I take personally what you didn't intend personally, which is a cheap trick to make a point harder.

I don't see that as suggesting that group doesn't think. Only that he can't accept their conclusions. Must be the full moon.
I guess I'm going to have to revive my tagline.
"Don't take it personal, don't make it personal." :angel:

You left out the THINK part.

"Think" wasn't part of the statement. "Think" was stage direction, so I did.:p

I suspect part of what is going on here is that UT and Blue are both men of faith ... in different things. And that's cool.

Sure Wolf, but what about their children? :unsure:

Their children will just have to duke it out on the playground. :D

They will be just as fucked up as the rest of us.