Deja Vu all over again - Iran and the Bomb
 

Secretary of State Powell is issuing dire warnings about Iran . There are some very familiar elements.

Intelligence is coming from an exile group.
Noone can corroborate the intelligence.
The international agency responsible for verification has no evidence of anything wrong, but can not prove that there isn't something going on.

I can't say what is true or not here. However, I can say that the US has pretty much blown it's credibility on issues like this. Also, this time we know we would need foreign assistance to resolve the issue because an invasion of Iran would make Iraq look like a junior prom.

Colin's not the only one who noticed.

They've been sneaking around.

For a while now.

In lighter Iranian news today ... The floggings will continue until the morale and proper religious devotion improves.

You know, Korea is going to need their ass kicked pretty soon, too. So that's going to put us in Iraq, Iran and North Korea all at the same time? I don't really think it is possible for us to maintain a three-front war on terrorism without ending up drafting people like me. Since none of you really want that (I'm a poor shot, and I soil myself when I have my head cut off), I think we need to figure out a way to get Iran and North Korea to take each other out...

Hey, Iran! The North Koreans are laughing about your turbans!

And ate before sundown during ramadan. You gotta tailor the insult to the culture.

Hey, North Korea, I hear the Iranians said that your kimchee tastes like Kim Jong Il's jockstrap!!

Frankly, if I was Iran I'd be getting as many nukes and other WMDs as I could, innocence is no defence against the US military industrial complex so you may as well get ready to inflict some serious damage on the way down, worked for the DPRK, the US only picks on countries that can't fight back.

Jag has got a point - might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. I think I'd do the same thing, myself, since the US has already proven that it doesn't give a damn what sorts of weapons you have or don't have or how many international laws it breaks. If I were a country of any size, I'd arm myself to the teeth and engage in every possible chance to get WMD's in any way I could. That way when the invasion came, as it surely will, at least I'd be one hell of a bitter pill to swallow. Thank you, George Jr.

Given recent history if I was Iran I would assume that America's policy is to disarm me before attacking me.

As battle tactics go it's an interesting one. First remove the enemy's military arsenal under the auspices of world peace then ride in on a tank and decimate what's left of it's defences before installing a compliant puppet regime in it's place. Highly effective thus far in terms of causing the maximum possible trouble and strife for the enemy, unfortunately it does somewhat send a message out to every other despotic regime in America's sights.....to whit, never under any circumstances allow the Uninted States of America disarm you under the auspices of world peace.

I also love all this mincing around and throwing up of arms over the terrible, irresponsible, downright evil build up of nuclear weapons going on in Iran and Korea. Coming from America, home of the biggest nuclear arsenal on the planet ....America who has pulled out of non proliferation treaties in order to continue testing various types of unpleasant weaponry .....well frankly it's a bit rich.

Are we really going to do this all again folks? Have we learned nothing? What right have we to force democracy on another sovereign nation? If the Iranian people want democracy they'll overthrow their government, such has been the task of many a people at many points in the world's history. The only possible rationale for imposing democracy onto another nation is in pursuit of "security" for America and it's allies.....and let's face it that's about as flawed a rationale for this war (these wars) as you are likely to find.

The only time democracy comes at the point of a gun is when it rises from the bottom up. Democracy is not imposed from the top down. Throughout history those at the top have sought to limit and post caveats around the democratic freedoms of those they rule; conversely those living under the rule of others have historically pushed the boundaries of their democratic freedoms to the consternation of the powers that be.

I seem to recall that Iran's Current despotic government took over from their last somewhat less despotic, but heritary government.

Did the people of Iran benefit from this revolution?

Well they didn't have the hand of the US up the ruler's arse, that must've made a nice change. That was however, a while ago now.

Non-answer

Hmm. Let's see.

Traditional monarchy in a country that was actually fairly progressive for it's region in terms of things like individual freedom and woman's rights versus a religious dictatorship that was looked upon as a role model for the Taliban?

What's this the invent a history for Iran thread?

One need not read newspapers to know both Iran and North Korea need as many nukes as they can build. It helps when America all but encourages its allies (Pakistan) to arm such countries.

We have told the world that we will be attacking Iran and North Korea. Americans voted to say war and belligerence is good. Screw the allies, the American economy, and our grandkids. This week, Rush Limbaugh types have started propaganda necessary to justify the Iranian attack. Just as in Iraq, 70% of us will be so mentally deficient (neo-con) as to believe that propaganda. What reasoning will be used iin place of aluminum tubes? Difficult to remind the 70% that we started all this some years ago when we decided to 'rescue them from themselves'. Principles from the Project for New American Century said we must do just that. The 70% will forget all that - it was too long ago.

George Jr administration intends to 'reform' Central Asia. To install democracy down their throats. To teach them how to be good Americans with funny accents and Christian moral values. To impose our religious beliefs on those infidels. Deja Vu.

The irony? America also is has become a religious extremist nation. This is how Crusades were promoted. This is how a 30 Years War killed more people than the Black Plague. This is what happens when people use their penis and their god to justify their actions. Attack on Iran will start after 2005. The 'good' religious people of America want such Armageddon.

Does Iran have nuclear weapons? If they did not, then Iranians are just plain stupid. No body is that stupid. We're coming in the name of Christian moral righteousness. God is on our side. They better damn well have nuclear weapons or something equivalent. Only a fool would condemn them for not arming to the max. Patriots can only sit back now and watch American values be subverted by satanic moralists. In Star Wars, it was called 'turning to the Dark Side'. In America, its called Christian morals. Fancy new words that describe something so extreme and so anti-American that such morality can be called evil. Propaganda to justify a Peral Harbor attack on Iran has now started.

My bad, I should have typed "hereditary monarchy" and then some reading informed me that it was only heriditary in the sense of "there was another coup and the Russians put the son of the last guy in."

But I do stand by my statements about the shahs having been more of a progressive bent.

The Shahs or the Mullahs it doesnt really matter so long as it's Iranians ruling Iranians. Anything else is as Imperial at heart as India or the Philipines ever were.

As to the nature of the system which the revolution overthrew, I would wager those wonderful liberal values extended primarily to the middle classes ... If Iran had been a model of fairplay and evenhanded justice for all I have doubts that so many of the populace would have risen and given their support to the revolution.

*Chuckles* I just read that last paragraph back to myself and then it occurred to me...Wolf, do you value any classes beyond the middle class? I hear much about the middle class in America....is there a place in your world view for the working class?

Just teasing. ....Anyway....The fact that the revolution once achieved led to a disappointingly repressive form of governance does not then give outsiders the right to stomp in and make 'em do it properly. Instead what that leads to, or should lead to in a forward looking world with an internationally valued peace, is a counter revolution........often this counter revolution doesnt happen with the same fire and fervour of it's parent. Often it happens across a generation or two and it takes down the regime in a death by a thousand cuts.

This drip drip of progress and generational disenchantment with the ideals of dead martyrs is already happening in Iran. ......Or rather it was. That particular train may of course be derailed pretty fucking sharpish if you prove the Mullahs right in their fear and loathing of America ..... I wonder how many Iranian women these days take full coverage as a mark of pride in their Islamic identity and defiance against those who have launched a "war on Islam".

I am reminded of a cartoon I saw once. The details are hazy in my recollection but it involved a talking monkey, a stick, a wasp nest and some advice not followed. Got pretty messy as I recall.

America, in a technical sense, doesn't have a 'working class' as such ... and I don't mind people of other classes at all, just so long as they are working. I have a great deal of respect, actually, for people who provide service jobs ... whether it's floor mopping, waitressing, or handy-manning.

I went to school for lots of extra years so I don't have to do those things.

I just have a problem with people who could work that don't, and instead suck money out of the system and use public funds to support their drug and alcohol habits, fer instance.

If by "progressive" you mean in terms of setting up a brutal secret police , then I guess you're right. If we had invaded Iran when the Shah was in power we would be making the same accusations against him that we did against Hussein.

It's not a non-answer UT, considering the fuss I heard over frankly, bizarre claims that an amendment allowing foreigners to run for presidency might result in foreign spies becoming president the right to have leaders I think the US might value leaders who aren't primarily beholden to foreign interests as well. Tell me you wouldn't prefer self-rule, hell, the Vietnamese sacrificed millions for it. Secondly, it can't have been that unpopular, after all, it was a people's revolution, just because you love your 'democracy' doesn't mean that's everyone's priority.

So then your answer, which we still must infer, is "yes".

No, the answer is they went from a foreign-controlled despotic regime to a people's revolution that became a despoitic regime with decreasing support. However if the US thinks they'd be welcomed as liberators they've got another thing coming.

Excuse me, could you explain your thinking behind that statement? I see members of the working class all around me. What? Is Colorado just a backward state or something? :confused:

Last time I checked, we sort "classes" in our theoretically classless society by economic achievement (low, middle, upper) rather than by employment category.

We still do have a 'blue collar' and 'white collar' division, although with the huge loss of manufacturing and the rise of low-paying 'service' jobs, wearing a nice shirt and tie does not mean you rise above the working poor.

I think income level pretty much defacto sorts us into working class, management class, professional class, etc. I mean, you seldom see someone who earns six figures working at Taco Bell.

America's Class System (from lowest to highest caste):

musician
writer
teacher
street person/homeless
welfare mom
elderly/disabled living on social security
college student
Walmart Greeter/McDonald's worker
working class stiff
working man's dead
waitress at Denny's
waitress at I-Hop
manager at Denny's/I-Hop/McDonald's
kid with a philosophy degree driving a garbage truck
computer geek
professional with a degree
MBA plotting to out source all of above
Company Executive plotting to outsource MBA
Japanese
Saudi Royal Family
Bill Gates

And people call ME cynical.

I've seen someone who used to make six figures working at Taco Bell, though ...

Downsizing and outsourcing have had their impact.

musician
writer
teacher
street person/homeless
welfare mom
elderly/disabled living on social security
college student
Walmart Greeter/McDonald's worker
Lawyers
working class stiff
working man's dead
Failed entrepreneurs
Hot Dog vendors
Automotive salespeople
waitress at Denny's
waitress at I-Hop
Retail sales
manager at Denny's/I-Hop/McDonald's
kid with a philosophy degree driving a garbage truck
dogs
computer geek
professional with a degree
Plumber, electrician, HVAC
MBA plotting to out source all of above
People who have been on reality shows
General Physicians
Company Executive plotting to outsource MBA
Minor celebrities
Surgeons, CEOs, top athletes
Major celebrities
(Japanese, Saudi Royal Family removed)
P.O.T.U.S.
Bill Gates

Different Story:
.

Technically, anti-Semitism can be against Arabs as well as Jews.

Well.......given that there are states in America where juveniles can be sentenced to death I dont really think you have a leg to stand on on that one Onyx. How many teenagers have Georgia and Texas sentenced to die in the last ten years?

You're barking up the wrong tree, Dana. Onyx wants to kill 'em all! :D
(Does this mean you have internet access again, I hope?)

I just started Azar Nafisi's "Reading Lolita in Tehran". So far its fascinating being brought into this woman's living room and hearing about the revolution all mixed in with her study of Western literature. Anyone share an interest in this book?

22 juveniles have been executed since 1973. 227 have been sentenced in that period. 133 of those sentences have been either reversed of commuted.

Most of these "juveniles" were 17 years old. I strongly reccomend reading the listings describing the very adult crimes these legal "children" committed. These include multiple murder, rape and murder, robbery and murder. The list starts on page 24 of the linked .pdf document.

It's a very adult list. And a 17 year old can be held criminally responsible for their actions. The juvenile court system in the United States is typically set up to deal with petty crimes, and the kid's record is expunged at age 18, and the newly minted adult released from juvenile incarceration. (In some jurisdictions I think you can be held in a juvie facility up to age 21. The US has some confusion over what legally constitutes and "adult."

It's not clearly detailed in this brief study report but a lot of the crimes described are probably also drug-related.

What leg were you presuming I was standing on?

The Walton Family :p

ya know, I've been mulling this whole Iran thing over for quite some time, and overall my money for the next invasion is Syria... anyone want in on a bet? and I also wonder if bush has ever studied any military history... you it's almost impossible to fight a war on three fronts... okay world war two being the exception, but..

there's a post where someone said it much better than I can... lemme see if I can find it

oh well... it's gone.. in summation

if I were north korea or iran I would be rushing ahead as fast as possible with WMDs and nukes, 'cuz if america is going to invade me, I'm going to make it a bitter pill to swallow.

the concept of mutually assured destruction works...

That doesnt work, trust me.

Well, there were 13 15-year-olds on that "very adult list". As for kids using drugs - there are days when I almost don't blame them. Here are a few fun facts: Over 12 percent of the U. S. population lives in poverty—one in six children. Families with children are the fastest-growing segment of the homeless population in the US—40%. Thirty-six million people, including 14 million children, experience hunger.

But who cares about those kids, right? Their families are probably just a bunch of shiftless bums and deserve what they get. Let's get back to what's really important these days - finding excuses to invade sovereign third world nations.

drug use and other crimes are obviously a good way to lift yourself out of poverty. sorry, i don't buy that one. it's just another excuse to explain away a decision that should be pinned squarely on one's own weakness.

Probably the biggest factor pushing teens into drug use is peer pressure. If you are a 13 year old kid living on the streets or in the projects, what sort of peer group do you think that you're likely to have? How do you think you are going to feel about your chances in life when all around you see despair, homelessness, unemployment or underemlpoyment? Addiction is a disease. Get out of the middle ages. Yes, a person can make the choice to treat his disease of addiction by going into rehab, attending 12-step meetings, etc. The choice is theirs whether they fight it or give up. We need to give those kids hope and a belief that there is something positive they can do with their lives. Telling a kid that he is "less than" and commanding him to pull himself up by his own bootstraps when he's living in poverty is a thoughtless and heartless response.

Treating addiction as a disease rather than a decision doesn't accomplish anything.

Face it, it's a decision. You CHOOSE to pick up the pipe, the needle, or the bottle. Nobody every forced me to smoke a joint or take a drink. Neither has any of the couple thousand drug users or alcoholics that I've seen.

Telling a kid that he is "less than" and that he'll be living in poverty by providing a meager government handout doesn't serve him either.

I just wish we could get some kind of consistency. IMO, draft age, voting age, and drinking age should all be the same.

As far as legality, we tried to use Prohibition to solve alcoholism until we figure out how many people we would have to throw in jail if we strictly enforced the law.

I'm moving to an alcohol/tobacco stance on many drugs - no public intoxication or DUI and limited to adults. Tax it to fund treatment. Strictly enforce prohibitions on sales to minors.

From a common-sense conservative and liberal standpoint, spending $28,000 per year in taxpayer money times 10 years for some idiot with 3 grams of anything and no obvious intent to sell seems ridiculous.

I still don't know if any of the founding fathers used the hemp they grew for anything other than making rope or paper :fumette: , but it would be interesting to find out.

these are all fine examples of excuses. excuses that can be thrown out to explain away your own bad decisions. "oh, i'm poor because ____ is holding me down - i have no choice but to burn a rock." BULLSHIT. it is a decision.

don't start to lecture me about addiction from the wealth of knowledge you haven't yet forgotten. i know about addiction in a very close and personal way. addiction can be physical or mental and it is extremely difficult to overcome. and yes, in many cases it is rightly called a disease, but let me ask you - how does an individual become addicted to a substance? is Joe Schmo walking down the street one day, never having tried heroin in his life and just get a craving for it? in every case i've ever known, Joe Schmo made a conscious decision to start a behavior. whether he becomes addicted or not, it is his choice to tempt fate. to say it is someone else's fault is ridiculous. to suggest that it is understandable that so many people in economic hardship become addicts is appalling. these are the very individuals who should know better - they see the consequences every day of their lives.

here is an idea - if you look around you and all you see are people living shitty lives because of addictions and criminal actions... Don't follow in their footsteps! it is that effing simple.

Rich i agree with you completely. i don't really care who is smoking weed, running a line, or freebasing for that matter. where i start to care is how it affects the lives of those who aren't participating in the behavior. if the person can't keep a job because of their habit - F 'em no public assistance for that. and in cases of property or personal damage that can be traced back to drug or alcohol use - nail them to the wall in the most severe manner possible. i don't see the point in spending time and money on going after dealers - unless they are found selling to kids, then nail 'em. otherwise, they are simply providing a service. go after the addicts and cut the demand side out of the equation, if you want dealers to go away.

but in the end, quit making excuses for people who make bad choices. it is called personal responsibility and we don't have enough of it in this country anymore.

The American Medical Association has classified addiction as a disease for over 60 years now. Your statement is equivalent to saying that treating diabetes as a disease rather than a decision doesn't accomplish anything. People can choose to get treatment for their disease of diabetes, take their insulin and watch their diet. Or not. In the same way, people can choose to address their disease of addiction, get treatment, go to 12-step groups, and avoid the use of alcohol or drugs. Or not.

Our society condones the use of alcohol, even pot. Most people pick up their first drink, thinking nothing of it. Roughly 90% of the population can safely do this. The other 10% are genetically predisposed to the disease of addiction and get into big trouble.

I'm not interested in trading war stories. You admit that addiction can "in many cases rightly be called a disease" after first stating that it is a "decision based on weakness." If you are going to make an argument, you need to begin by stating a clear premise and then backing that premise up with facts and logical conclusions based upon the facts you have presented.


I did not say "that it is understandable that so many people facing economic hardship become addicts." I am facing considerable economic hardship at the moment, and taking drugs is the last thing on my mind. What I wrote was "As for kids using drugs - there are days when I almost don't blame them." Note that I said "kids" and "almost."

I was not writing about any "Joe Schmo." Most of here understand that if we decide to trot down to the local heroin dealer's place one day and try shooting up that we are taking one hell of a big risk. In addition, most of us are not surrounded by people snorting meth or shooting up. A thirteen year old kid living on the streets is going to be influenced by those around him, and his situation is very different than yours or mine. Young kids think they are bomb proof. Most don't look at consequences down the road. Next week is a million years away to most of them, and forget about next year.

My memory is improving and I seem to recall having this same circular argument with you once before about choices. I agree that when a person makes a poor choice for himself, he has no one but himself to blame for it. However, an enlightened society will create an environment which is more conducive for ALL its members to make positive choices for themselves, rather than one in which a significant percentage of its youth feel there is little or no hope, so what difference does it make what they choose?