You Never Know Someone
 

My fall semester Physiology class started just as all of my previous classes had over the years: walk in, sign the roll, get a feel for what the prof is going to be like, decide if its worth keeping, etc. The entire class is usually pretty noisy, but once everyone settled into room 209's lecture about the nervous system, there was a distraction in the rear of the class. A student in the last row, tucked into the corner, kept talking and it irritated everyone to no end, yet none of us would do anything more than give this guy dissapproving looks. This happened during each lecture and finally the instructor pulled him aside after class around the 3rd or fourth day.

Sometime later, the guy stopped showing up and we all figured that he had dropped the class. All the better for us, as it creeped us out that he enjoyed talking to himself for a full hour. The weeks went by and it wasn't until the final that our professor had a talk with us about Justin, the noisy student. It seems The guy had some difficulties in life and took out his aggressions at a St. Petersburg Radio Shack. I never made the connection when his face made the evening news, it only struck me as familiar.

And to think I had considered yelling at this guy to "shut the hell up". :eek:

I wonder how many people we run into in our daily lives are the kind that go on to do something, uh, "interesting".

"We don't think this is who Justin was..."

I hate crap like that. He didn't just snap, he had a history of unprovoked violence and they're trying to blame it on the hard life he had that according to them wasn't a reason to act the way he did.

wow. i don't know of anyone from my past pulling something like that off, but my wife and i were just talking about those we knew going on to infamy.

i was doing a little research and came across the fact that my small hometown in illinois has 11 registered sex offenders in it - that is a town of only 5000. here's the kicker. i went to school with 4 of them. 3 of the 4 my first thought was "well, that doesn't really surprise me." but the 4th? that was a shocker.

[quote=Troubleshooter they're trying to blame it on the hard life he had that according to them wasn't a reason to act the way he did.[/QUOTE]

hard life or not, every action an individual makes requires a decision to do so.

This sucks all around. You can blame the family for not agressively pushing him into decent treatment, you can blame the numerous previous victims for not pressing charges, you can blame the cops for not putting the pattern together before it was too late, you can blame who ever it was who allegedly fucked this guy up in his childhood. None of that blame brings back the two dead people.

At least he turned the gun on himself. That sucks too, but he was the only one who had the guts to stop himself from doing it again.

A disaster like this is usually because of multiple failures. :mad:

My point exactly.

Bullshit, killing himself was either cowardice or psychosis. I'm betting cowardice.

Bullshit, killing himself was either cowardice or psychosis. I'm betting cowardice.

Just from reading what this guy did and that he didn't know his victims, I'd say he had some serious problems in his head. He assaulted one student on campus just after class for no reason, punching him in the jaw.

Without more information it's impossible to be sure, but my inner voice is telling me Anti-Social Disorder which is primarily behavioral.

Speaking of never really knowing someone, a few years into my correctional officer career I responded to an attempted suicide in one of the new admit cells and it turns out to be a guy I grew up with. We lived on the same street, went to the same schools and even hung out with the same friends. After we took him to the prison hospital for trying to hang himself, I talked with the guy for a while and found out that he had just been sentenced to 6 years for brutally beating his two small daughters, putting one in a coma and the other had brain damage.
After learning what he did I kind of wished we hadn't responded quite so quick. Luckily he got transfered to another prison not long after that and I didn't have to deal with him again.

I think that there is more to this story that we don't know than we know.

Many of the answers, however, died with Justin.

The fact that he was restless and talking to himself in the back of the classroom could be an outward sign that he was responding to internal stimuli.

A lot of crazy people fly under the radar because although they are crazy, they don't do dangerous stuff.

This guy, obviously, engaged in dangerous stuff, including the reported incident where he punched that dude without provocation.

Did the voices tell him to, or was there some other delusional reason he did that?

We won't ever know.

But that's probably an incident that should have been dealt with different.

Hindsight, is, of course always 20-20.

I have been involved in incidents where even when the family knows there is a clear problem, they refuse to do anything, thinking that their darling boy could never be dangerous, even if he's told them that they are not his family and have been replaced by demons.

Mom and dad are dead. The brother managed to escape the house with serious stab wounds and made it to the neighbors to call the police.

Last I heard, the killer was still satisfied that he had saved his parents by killing the demons.

There is a lot about this current case that the family will never tell. They probably more that they knew about his mental state, crazy things that he was saying or doing, that they won't now reveal ... even the dead need their reputations protected. There's a lot more than "he had a hard time with his parent's divorce." That much is at least obvious from the news report.

I'm not going to make judgements about craziness or cowardice beyond this, especially with respect to his committing suicide.

This is not a typical story, and will probably do more harm than good in general with respect to how seriously mentally ill people are viewed and treated in the community.

Wow. The Newspaper article contained a link to the 911 dispatch tape of the call made by one of the customers who managed to hide behind the counter and escape the killer's notice.

It's chilling, to say the least.

I wish 911 calls weren't public record. A radio station here recently played the 911 call of that lady who cut off her baby's arms. *shudder*

Speaking of crazy people committing mass murder, one of the victims of the Dimebag Darrell killing in Ohio had a local connection to our community. The band's security guy was a longtime Highland Games participant here in KC, and had been known to work Festival security all over by dint of his enormous stature and strength.

Many members of our local Pagan community knew the guy, who, along with Dimebag and two others, died at the hands of someone who is being characterized as "a disturbed fan" at the Ohio concert.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...0379684.htm?1c

Can anyone who kills and takes another human being's life, especially in this way, be sane? I kind of always thought that someone who commits murder isn't right in the head and that they lack value for human life. A connection isn't being made to what they are really doing and they don't comprehend the depth of their actions.

Or, knowing humanity in general, maybe its completely normal and we're all doing our best to supress it 24/7. :)

And, yeah, I'm sad to see Dimebag go. That sucks.

Police: "Did you see who did the shooting, ma'am?"

Caller: "I don't give a shit! Get here quick."

Now there's a caller with her priorities straight!

<humor mode=graveyard>
Radio Shack probably violated their new policy about asking name and address on cash purchases, and that drove the already-tormented guy over the edge.
</humor>

I'd agree with that. I think we've all felt a strong urge to kill someone at one time or another, but hey, you gotta suck it up and let it go. If you don't have the ability to do that, then you've got a problem.

Wolf, I could not do for one day the stuff you do day in and day out. :thumbsup:

I really hope you are keeping a journal of all these stories you have to tell. I seriously think you should put some of this stuff together and write a book.

This guy was not a responsible gun owner. I guess the sport of the shooting range wasnt enough.

This guy was not a responsible gun owner.

This guy illegally obtained the gun by lying on his application that he had never been prescribed or was currently taking drugs for a psychological condition.

This guy punches people out and eventually kills people. Who could've guessed he would lie?

Hadn't he been in trouble with the law before he bought the gun? Did they do a background check, and if so, why didn't this stuff show up? If someone lies on an application to get a gun and are found out, is there any sort of "punishment" or are they just allowed to walk away scott-free and look for a gun somewhere else?

No idea. Even if you have a felony conviction, there is nothing preventing you from going to a gun show and picking up a handgun or buying one off of a private seller.

I think the background check process could use quite a lot of improvement.

As far as killling people goes, it's the same as any other decision. It's a simple value judgement. What do I gain by doing this or not doing this. Even crazy people use the same mechanics, it's just there motivational structure is off. Civilization is what makes people behave, as in being able to interact in your group environment in a way that doesn't put other people in the same balancing act of deciding what is to be gained by killing you or not killing you.

The lizard brain drives, the mammalian brain is the road, and the human brain drives (usually).

In regards to the background check, it has yet to be shown to work in its current state, also some states require the check at gun shows as well.

You lost me here... what do you mean?

First off, there are plenty of people who kill people who aren't crazy. Gang members, armed robbers, etc. They are criminals. They are not crazy. Yes, you like to think they are different from you, but in essence, they aren't. The regard for human life is not automatic. Neither is self control. But the lack of either is a matter of personality, not insanity. If you really had to be crazy to kill someone, insanity defenses would work more than 1% of the time.

The news articles were unclear as to the extent of mental health treatment history the guy had.


A bit about firearms law ...

If you are buying a handgun ... you have to fill out the state and federal paperwork to do so.

The "gun show loophole" doesn't exist in the way that the Brady Bunch would like you to believe. You ARE allowed to make a transfer of a long arm between private citizens. Anything else requires an FFL dealer in the middle ... you pay him or her a fee, usually around $25, for running the background check and filing the paperwork.

State laws also vary related to mental health history ... most states will deny a firearms purchase to anyone who has been involuntarily committed to a hospital. (In Florida, that means "Baker Acted". My jurisdiction calls it a 302. California's is a 5150 ... those are the only ones I know offhand). Usually folks who have sought voluntary treatment (which is the great majority) don't go into the no-buy database.

I seem to recall the fed paperwork asking if I were an American Citizen or a habitual drunkard. Nothing asked me to indicate if I were crazy, suicidal, homicidal, or just plain pissed off.

Edit to add: Yes, there are criminal charges for falsely filling out the forms. More of the slap on the wrist variety, but they are federal ... I was once in a gun store when someone tried to do this. It was very interesting to watch. The cops got called and were already familiar with the rocket scientists involved (there was more than one visit to the gunstore on this one).

from the article: I wonder if any of his previous police recorded episodes of violence, the punch, attempted run down, showed up on a firearms background check, or would matter.

I know they are beloved....but I hate how ample handguns have become.

Maybe its just my perception because I grew up with guns laying around all over the house, barn, vehicles etc... but I don't think they are any more ample now than they've ever been.

Must just be my perception. Seems to me I hear more about hand gun incidents and availability.

i haven't pulled any statistics or anything, but maybe we are hearing more about it because, as a society, we have become more sensitive to the issue.

it seems like once upon a time if there was an accidental shooting, the response was that "Uncle billy died because he was screwing around with his gun and it accidentally went off."

now it seems like the thought process is more in the lines of "uncle billy was killed by his gun going off. if we had better gun laws, he wouldn't have had that unsafe gun in his hands. who can we sue?"

it also seems like kids today play with guns because they are almost taboo. when i was a kid, my dad had his rifles stored in the closet. he taught me how to clean and care for them, but he also let me fire them and see the destruction they caused. even the church camp i went to let us target shoot with .22's. our experience with guns wasn't limited to tv.

today most parents don't like their kids exhibiting violent behavior like playing with toy guns and they wouldn't think of letting their children fire real guns. so the kids grow up without learning the proper respect a gun deserves until they are a teenager with their invincibility mode in full effect and start playing with a gun at someone's house. then when someone ends up dead it must be the gun maker's fault.

just recently in phoenix a 15 yr old boy shot himself in the head. he was playing russian roullette to impress his g/friend. stupid . it was a glock.REALLY EFFING STUPID. of course it was all over the news with the toothless neighbor saying that the problem lies with people owning guns. i happen to think that the problem lies with people being A) stupid and B) unfamiliar with guns.

*rant over*

What I notice is...Oh yeah, another armed kid went off in school. Oh yeah, some dude just went postal. Some girl was killed in driveby crossfire. Oh yeah, dont make me put a cap in yo ass. Just everyday stuff anymore. No real shock, just part of the territory. And apparently glocks are very sexy.

Guns may also be "taboo" to kids now because their are LAWS in place against letting kids play with guns....

1. cooked mushrooms are delicious.

2. I dont understand the whoe guns thing. Whats the big attraction? they cost money to get and to keep, they dont do anything except kill things (and who would want to do that?), and they arent much good at protection in my point of view. you feel unsafe? move somewhere safer.

garnet we're not talking about kids playing with guns. that is the whole point. some would argue that teaching kids the responsible handling of firearms from a young age would lead to more responsible actions in future years.

and sun - it costs money to purchase a gun. unless you modifying it or buying extras, maintenance costs are negligable. target shooting is very effective at releasing stress.

I beg to differ, guns used properly in the right circumstances are perfect for protection against any would be predator set to to you or your loved ones harm. And let's face it, moving to somewhere safer is not really a viable option to most people. Owning a gun is much cheaper.

Damn good question, and a question that people outside the US frequently ask. I don't get it either. :thumbsdn:

And I dislike cooked mushrooms even more than I dislike guns. They're slimy, taste like dirt and have the consistency of BOOGERS. :greenface

The brain can be roughly broken down into three portions:

1) "lizard brain" or the limbic system, it controls our basic needs, the three F's; feeding, fighting and sex

2) "mammalian brain" or the intermediate cortical tissues deal with memory and less simplistic responses to a changing environment

3) "primate brain" or the frontal lobe is what makes us human, advanced (hopefully) reasoning, nuclear weapons and such

Not to get into the whole peta thing but I read this as you've eaten dirt and boogers and dislike them, yet you're a vegetarian and wont eat meat? :confused:

Beat me up. I don't care. Anytime a tragedy like this occurs I'll be there.Guns kill people.Period.

How did I get on the wrong link???

That is a function of the way in which such incidents are reported.

Rampages make the top of the news. Successful defensive uses of firearms do not.

Unless, of course, it occurs in a jurisdiction where you aren't allowed to own a firearm, in which case the homeowner is being charged with a firearms offense, for successfully defending his family.

There have been cases of this in NYC and in Illinois within the last year or two.

Glocks are about as unsexy as you can get.

Unless you are talking from an engineering standpoint.

As firearms go, they are utilitarian and butt ugly.

And I REALLY love my Glock.

I agree, Glock rocks. Of course Lady Sidhe would just say that that is my Teutonic heritage talking.

Function over form every time. Make it work, and then make it pretty.

Somebody doesn't have a sense of humor apparently.... And do everybody a favor--don't go into the PETA/vegetarian thing. Please.

Not to mention, look at the number of sources and availability of news these days.

Sorry Garnet, it was meant to be humorous. Maybe my choice of smiley gave the wrong impression. And I said 'not' to get into the PETA thing, I don't try to stir doo doo. Really. :o

It has been a Federal Felony since the Brady Bill went into effect a long time ago. Thousands of people violate that law every year. To my knowledge NOT ONE has been prosecuted.
As the population increases so does the number of incidents, even if the %age goes down. Back when everyone that could afford it, owned a gun, it wasn't news. With an increase in the population that does not own a gun a market for the news was created. :yeldead:

Oh please. I won't get into it here, but I'm not buying the whole "evolutionary brain" argument. No one has ever seen a normal human brain that didn't have all the parts normal human brains have now.

Gun-related crimes vary a great deal from decade to decade, even though the number of guns around doesn't change so much. Gun crimes went through a massive peak during alcohol prohibition, but by the time life in these United States settled down, they were at a tenth what they were during that period. Then they started upwards again, until they reached a second, nearly identical peak during the "crack epidemic", theoretically a new prohibition period. During the 90s things began to settle again and with the peak in jobs in 1999, gun crimes reached a new low. Since then they have been edging upwards, but are still nowhere near what they were a decade ago.

There is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that gun crime correlates with the war on drugs. It's so easy to see. As the profit potential for illegal activity rises, so does the number of people who are willing to go to far illegal lengths. Drug lords are running a multi billion dollar industry and it's entirely underground. Guns are how they legislate and control their activity.

No one has ever seen a normal human brain that didn't have all the parts normal human brains have now.

Well, yeah. If any human brain is missing any specific parts, it tends not to be normal. Its rare to hear someone say, "We found a normal human brain that doesn't have a somatasensory cortex."

Makes me wonder what's normal when they can take out one entire half of a brain and still have the patient function "normally"
Wasn't that just separating the functions of the human brain into groups that critter brains can also handle? Nothing evolutionary here folks, just move along. :)

I was watching a show on Discovery channel that didn't have a damn thing to do with origins, but just HAD to make a comment about how it this part evolved over millions of years, then this part started evolving, then this part.

Calling different parts of the brain by different animals is a direct reference to evolutionary thinking, and in turn, to evolution. If you think it doesn't pervade absolutely every otherwise reasonable science, this is a perfect example.

Calling different parts of the brain by different animals is a direct reference to evolutionary thinking, and in turn, to evolution.

Gah. Its simply terminology used to refer to collections of areas of the brain that serve the same purpose, look the same, and are functionally mapped topographically the same between the species. It does not imply evolution.

Evolution is not nearly as controversial as you want to believe. It is the currently accepted theory, and will be treated as if it were fact until something better comes along.

The problem that she has repeatedly demonstrated is an unwillingness or an inability to differentiate between the evolutionary process which has been proven about as thoroughly as can be done, and spontaneous creation.

Evolutionary Process as it relates to the idea of "molecules to man"? Didn't happen.

Mutation/Speciation? Happens all the time. That's science.

But not speciation to the extent of apes-to-man, because the Bible says man was there from the get-go, right?

apes to man is part of molecules to man.

Molecules to man is the theory that all life on the planet started from a primordial soup that no one has ever been able to prove existed, and somehow (no one knows) life started from non-life, and from that bacterial life other life somehow evolves into invertabrates, which somehow become vertebrates, which spontaneously become mammalian, and apes turn into men.

Hope that's somehow clear to you, because I don't understand how a reasonable person is supposed to believe that.

But ignore the rest of the molecules-to-man theory: could speciation of just a primate mammal from one extreme (apes) to another (man) possibly occur, in your mind?