God? Faith?
 

OK, faith or religion has become a conflict point in several threads recently so maybe it's time for a poll. No need to comment, unless you feel led.

Where's the 'I believe in something bigger than us, but I don't know what it is' choice?

sorry, labrat. i guess i would just lump that in with "i want to believe in God, but see no evidence". i don't know what "something bigger than us" would be, other than a god. please feel free to comment to clarify what you mean though.

The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no God, but since I was raised to believe in God, I have a difficult time coming right out and saying what is almost certainly true. Call me superstitious, but I don't feel comfortable coming right out and saying it. After watching Candyman the movie, I also had a hard time looking into a mirror and saying "Candyman" three times. I have also knocked on wood before too. I put all of these things in the same category, with denying God a little higher up on the taboo list than the others. Maybe that makes me a wimp because I lack convictions.

Now that I'm a dad, I've had to decide whether to raise my kids in any organized religion. My wife has stronger faith than me (which is not very hard) and we are taking the kids to church every week. The kids like church, and the message they get there is basically a good one, so I play along. I'm even somewhat involved in church, which is funny given my lack of faith. I help set up for special ceremonies, am helping to renovate some rooms, have done some readings, etc.

The way I figure it, I live the life of a good christian: I mean, I vote Democrat, I help the poor, I'm nice, I go to church. If God does exists, he should give me a break for being a good guy. If he doesn't (exist), well then it doesn't matter, does it?

I voted for "I want to believe, but have found no evidence of God " even though I have no special desire to believe anything.

she means agnostic - there's something out there, don't know what.
or by the dictionary:

I am struggling over this. I am leaning towards No God(s) and feeling mightily bummed out. I think the evidence tends towards a totally random, rather hostile universe. I feel totally shitty and things are really sucking. I hate this. I hate these periods of anxiety that plague me every few months. They SUCK. Plus, they erode what little faith I had. Little by little the anxiety chips away at what progress was made previously and I'm left right back at square one. Totally fucking sucks.

I was forced to choose "Only a fool..." simply because there is no evidence for the existence of deity, but I am also not of the opinion that there is no god because there is just as much evidence for that as well.

I'm in the "you show me yours and I'll show you mine" camp.

I do. Feel led.
 

Thanks for the poll, I'm eager to see the results accumulate but even more interested in the comments that may be posted.

Faith is, by definition, belief in something not seen. Hebrew 11:1 says, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, of things not seen." I can perceive evidence of that "God plays an active role in my life" much in the same way that I can tell the sun is in the sky without looking directly at it. Some level of evidence is enough for each person, and it certainly varies widely, and I have reached mine. The distance between evidence and truth is filled with faith.

One short story as an example. I was out of work and really stressing about everything that accompanies that situation. I was sitting in my car outside an office just before an interview, collecting myself for this very important, high stakes meeting. I said a simple prayer asking for God's help. As I looked up, my eyes focused on the billboard across the street. This is what I saw: "You are not alone." It was an ad for an adoption center, I think. I'm sure it was a clear communication to me that He was with me. I was greatly reassured, and entered the interview confidently. Two years later, I'm still on the job, the best job I've ever had.

God exists. He's with me (and you) all the time. What varies is my confidence, my faith, my ability to perceive. Science is the study of what can be reasonably inferred from repeatable experimentation. Faith is not subject to that kind of rigor. It's not defined to be.

Science is a useful, elegant way to discover the nature of the question "How?" Faith is equally useful and elegant for the explanation of the question "Why?"

I believe, have faith in, some sort of spiritual order or energetic force, but its form is not that of "a god" as described by the organized religions I've encountered, although they may start to proximate it. Not sure where that lands.

I dont feel this spiritual force as a "father" or "shepherd" or "savior"
maybe closer is "life (including death)" or "compassion".
It doesnt fit well into group worship. It doesnt lend itself to group governance. its not always easy or conforting. Its challenging and rather than delineating and choosing, its base is in a connectedness that is not comprehendable.

To those in the "wanting to believe, but can't"
 

I invite you to join me in a conversation about this stance. I will not prosletyze. I am very familiar with this position, since I recently spent all my time there, and still visit it regularly.

I am willing to lend my ears and my time. If it is mutually acceptable, I would be willing to lend my words and thoughts as well.

The door's open.

Yeah, what Warch and Jaguar said is what I meant. I actually am currently struggling with whether or not I should start taking my 2 yr old to church or not. It did me 'good' learning the golden rule etc., and now like Glatt I live a "good Christian life" in general partly because of lessons learned young. So far tho, I have decided not to because I feel that she will emulate me and learn what I teach her by my actions (being a 'good person, sharing, not stealing, helping those in need, being honest with others) even without going to church, and by going when I don't truly believe, I am actually teaching her hypocracy and not honesty. I HATE hypocrites (sp) more than just about anything. Occasionally I actually envy those who wholehartedly believe in their faith, and wonder why I am broken for questioning things. I interpret BigV's story as coincidence that he looked at that particular billboard at that time. Ever notice that when someone mentions something, that's all you see for awhile? Like the ribbon thread. After reading that, all I saw were cars with those stupid magnetic ribbons. Should I take that as a sign that I should go out and buy one? I think, no. Because the human mind is SO suceptible to the power of suggestion, I just noticed things I previously was ignoring but were still there before I noticed them. I hope I am making sense. What if BigV happened to look at his gas gauge instead and noticed it was on E, and took that as a sign instead he was at the end of the line? Or reinterpreted the 'you are not alone' to mean 'there are four people trying for this job, and they're all just as qualified as you? I would give the reasoning that he saw what he saw and interpreted it the way he did because he was looking for SOMEONE to tell him, "it's going to be OK, give it your best shot". Because he is Christian, he believed it was God/Jesus whoever encouraging him. (Not that that is a bad thing!) I think, eh- coincidence.

I thought BigV's story was a coincidence too, but wasn't going to say anything, because who am I to chip away at someone else's faith? People with faith are genuinely happy to have it.

Look for proof of God, and you will find it.

Look for proof that hamsters are the supreme species on earth, and you will find it.

A) You certainly do not need to take your child to church for her to grow into a "good person". you are her teacher and guidance counselor in life. there are many kind, good people who hold no religious belief whatsoever. there are many deeply religious people who act in a cruel and deceitful manner.

B) Only BigV can speak to his experience. He could have very easily reached one of the conclusions you proposed, but he didn't. coincidence? maybe. or he saw what he needed to see at a very fragile crossroads in life. is it miraculous? i don't know about that, but it seems to have been a very important event for him.

C) You are definitely not broken because you question things. In fact, if you didn't i don't believe that would be a good thing. I hold my faith very close to me - i also frequently have doubts and questions. in my view, the depth of my faith is in a state of constant flutctuation, not because of God's changing presence, but because of my receptiveness.

D) Sometimes I see Faith as very similar to Love. I believe they are actions, verbs, decisions. I love my wife very deeply - but this is real life. The "warm fuzzy" love is only there occassionally. But i wake up every morning and make a conscious decision to love my wife. it is a process, a choice more than a feeling. I think it is amusing that many people think that to have a strong Christian faith one must have blind dedication. I have had many struggles with my faith over the years, but my faith has generally come through the other side stronger in some way. Faith is first a choice to believe in something bigger than ourselves, something that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of many. That, in a way, makes it that much stronger. It takes no personal investment to believe in something that is easily verified with one's eyes. Gravity is real. I can drop an apple and see it fall 10 out of 10 times. I have no real feelings for gravity.

yet more detail
 

LB: Your observations are right on target. I agree with you about the suggestability of the human mind, and mine in particular. Let me clear up an important detail first, please.

Faith is a choice to believe in the absence of evidence.

I have faith in God, not because I worked it out to 10 decimal places, but because I have chosen to. It’s a provisional conclusion, since my faith is tested often. I don’t mean I’m out in the desert with the devil for a month, but I often, no, constantly try to reconcile what I believe with what I experience. Sometimes the evidence at hand does not match my estimation of what it should be. Some things that are especially hard to jive are the suffering of innocents, or, hey MY suffering. Why, God, why? Or the sheer inscrutability of His communication with me. A burning bush? Come on, just say it.

I’m not being funny, these are real questions of mine. As I reflect on circumstances like these, I usually have the most satisfying results when I slow down, calm down, and enlarge the scope of what’s involved. There’s not always a reason for what happens. Let me expand that a little—not always a reason I understand, or not always a reason that can be traced back to “God’s will”. For example, I do not believe that the tragedy of the recent tsunami is “God’s judgment”. Nor do I understand why I give all my pocket change to the guy on the corner with the cardboard sign (or why I feel convicted with I don’t).

When I do open myself to more inputs and observations, a few points come up again and again that help settle me. One, God knows more than I do (duh). I mean, when the kids were small, and I took away something from them that they wanted but was harmful for them, they wailed but I persisted. I can hear them now “But WHY!!??” Sometimes I could reason with them to a point, sometimes not. I don’t always have the whole story, but so far, it’s always worked out in my favor. I mean, I’m still here, ain’t I?

Suffering is not always bad. Ooh. Tough one. I can’t always get this one settled, but usually the suffering is a result of the difference between my expectations and my realities. It’s uncomfortable but true that both sides of that equations can be moved toward meeting somewhere in the middle. And another thing, sometimes, I bring the suffering on myself. I still manage to be surprised and pissed off sometimes, but I shouldn’t be.

I leave room for myself to live peaceably with some uncertainty. Hey, I know lots of things now that were once perfectly opaque mysteries to me. Just because I don’t know everything about how something works really doesn’t impinge on the truth. Sometimes it’s true and I’m ignorant (understatement of the century).

I remember similar situations in the past and how they were resolved. There’s something of a positive feedback cycle at work here, for sure. But this is not a cop-out. I don’t re-figure out how to tie my shoes every day, or re-learn how to get to work or re-evaluate if my family is worthy of my love,—I re-member. If I switch from laces to Velcro, time to reconsider. If I get a new job, it’s time to remap my commute. If I come home and my clothes are flung over the lawn and the locks are changed, I better regroup. In the meantime, the working hypothesis is in place and functioning.

Let me give you an example: Money. Faith in money is no different. A Dollar? A piece of paper. Seriously. But I trust it, have faith in it. Heck, that’s the doggone definition of money. We all share the idea that the dollar can be exchanged uniformly for some service or product. But without that faith in that intangible idea, the money is worthless. Faith in God is like that for me. It’s a decision. I have listened to people who’s opinion I trust and value, I’ve read what I can, I listened and learned what I could and I have concluded that it’s true. God exists (and a bunch more…). Science, or a reasonable facsimile of the scientific method, test, evaluate, verify, led me here, but it is Faith, not Science that brought me this last step.

Bravo!
 

I would like to heartily second L123’s thoughts here, all of them. Good person/bad person and religious/faithful really don’t have any connection, but are often conflated. This is a very common example of the suggestability LB mentioned before.

I did (and sometimes still do) consider if what I saw was a “coincidence”, but I concluded that it wasn’t. A choice…

Questions are an integral, necessary part of the equation. Does a clock have “faith” in 3:15 pm? No, it’s just what happens every day on its way ‘round the dial. My questions enhance the value and importance of my faith.

Faith and love—wow, I can add nothing to improve the beauty, clarity and truth of these words. Masterful, Lookout123.

labrat - lookout is right, you can teach 'christian' values without adding all the crappy christianity stuff on top, hell you can teach the 10 commandments without pointing out some people think they was written on rock by god 2000 odd years ago. The important thing is the values, not the source.

I certainly believe there is some sort of God, and I suppose I would consider myself to be agnostic. I was raised Catholic (12 years of Catholic school) but remember thinking at an early age that the Bible had lots of interesting stories, but how do we know they're true? (I believe I even said this out loud once, much to the dismay of my mother who never really gave me a good answer). I've seen too many good things in the world to disbelieve in a God completely, but it seems as I get older that I am distancing myself further and further from organized religion and the concept of a "fixed" God (sorry, I don't know the correct terminology). I HATE IT when people try to force their beliefs and religion on me, and my guess is that this is a reaction to all the years of having Catholic dogma forced down my throat. So regarding the kids--I think it's healthy to expose them to different beliefs, but certainly don't MAKE them believe what you believe. It's only gonna backfire on ya.

Half credit, jag
 

yep. Lookout is right. The values can be taught without the context of christianity. They're important enough to convey in any way possible, hey, that's why they're called v-a-l-u-e-s.
nope. The source IS important. While I was able to comprehend only the usefulness of these values, no more was important. As my ability to understand more grew, so did the importance of knowing more about the reasons behind the values.

Don't you remember when Mama told you "No!" and that was the end of the conversation? Then the answer became "Because I said so." and that sufficed for a while. Eventually, the yearning to know why was no longer satisfied with such an answer.

As my knowledge of the range of the sphere of influence my actions increased, as I began to be able to realize the longer term consequences of my actions, just relying on "Because it's a good idea" as the foundation to my values became less and less reliable. Sometimes there was conflict. Conflict that demanded that one of the sides must change. Was the behavior wrong or was it not a "good idea"? That's when blind or limited understanding became insufficient. I needed a larger frame of reference. Where were these ideas coming from? The answer to that question necessarily lies beyond the values themselves, and once asked in earnest, can never be unasked.

Where that path leads will vary from person to person, and for me, it led to God. It was not a short, easy or direct journey. Nor is it anywhere near over. But I do understand more than I did before. I'm more able than I used to be, and still questions and challenges lie before me. Thankfully, I have more tools to help me deal with these new obstacles.

I respect, and occasionally envy, the faith so many seem to hold, but I cannot bring myself to believe in this thing you call God. I believe in words and thoughts and grass and long lazy afternoons. I feel no need to look beyond the every day. This is life. I'm not living here for something greater. I am living here to live here. There is nothing else, and there need be nothing else, but today, and tomorrow, and the memory of yesterday.

I can't respond, as this is clearly a monotheistically oriented poll... :D

What would I put if I believe in a higher force, but don't necessarily view it as "god"?

And now, the serious answer from me.

You, me, stuff...all are the manifestation of deity. We are made of the same fabric as the rest of the universe. We possess all of the energy that flows through the universe, and we can use it...if we believe in ourselves and our relation to the All.

Call it prayer, call it magick, call it whatever you wish...the conscious accumulation and channeling of the energy that is available to you flowing freely through the All is at the core of the concept of deity. It is the stuff of Creation, of the physical, of the invisible.

You *are* God...deal with it.

What type of fabric is it? Wool is itchy....

and the christians seem to dominate the conversation at that!

and an equally serious reflection on Els answer
 

Indisputably true. To the best of my (limited) understanding, all matter and energy is fungible. What "losses" there are to entropy are like the fees charged as you change your money from one currency to another. Nothings added or subtracted; everything's still there but in different places.

I agree with this. I feel it is inconsistent to say the least to quarrel with someone over vocabulary, when I see so much similarity. While this is not the verbiage to which I am accustomed, I am perfectly at home with the spirit in which it is delivered.

God, I hope not. Wait, does that make it so then? Magical, miraculous, mysterious, certainly, but I would be disappointed to think that I am the very pinnacle of creation. I think we disagree on a little more than just terminology here, Els. I would like to hear more from you.

Where's this option? :)

Does your quote most closely approximate your stance, HM?

Pretty close, though I do enjoy debating it anyway.

I do not believe there is some sort of personal Almighty "who sees the sparrow fall." If this were the case, such an entity would be classified as a devil, rather than "God."

As a scientist, I have yet to see anything which proves the existance or non-existance of God. Every argument I have ever heard on the subject at last relies on "It's turtles all the way down."

I have had events occur in my life that had a probability of happening of about .00000000000000000000000000000000000000001%, and I've had such things happen to me more than twice but less than ten times in my life. These things intrigued me when they happened and continue to intrigue me now. Were they result of some God-like force? I am skeptical of this, but open to further information should any deity passing by in the neighborhood be willing to dispense it. (I don't know what catagory that places me in for the poll, so I didn't answer it).

It does leave me thinking. If I AM god, why am I only appeased with cheesecake? Hmm, it seems if that is true, then every belief is wrong! Want into heaven? gimme some cheesecake. ^_^ Dunlavy's cheesecake shrine.

Els (and associated others) - sorry, you're right - i did phrase the poll in a monotheistic fashion. didn't mean to exclude you, so thanks for overlooking my error.

i didn't start the poll so that i could climb on my soap box. i don't expect anyone in here to accept or be swayed by my post, it was simply my reaction to labrat's post. carry on, i know there are quite afew people here who have very strong beliefs in ________. i like to hear they "why"?

To me, god is the universe and everything in it. That is of course a massive over-simplification but words are very limiting when it comes to theology. So, anyway, this means that I am a part of god, and so is everyone else. This really blurs the boundaries of "me", in fact I'd rather say "us" and "we" than "me" or "I". Anything I do affects everything else, and anything you do affects me. We are all part of the same system, affecting each other. If I help you I'm helping myself, and if I hurt you I'm hurting myself. For all these reasons I voted "God plays an active role in my life", but this does NOT mean I pray, or hear voices telling me what to do, or go to church (in fact I'm very much against organised religion).

Wait, so if it's everything in it, does that mean people are praying to themselves?! Egocentric SOB's!

Uh..."Hi, my name is Dunlavy and I'm an alcoholic"? :D

There is no pinnacle of Creation...all portions are equal. Manifested in differing ways externally, certainly, but fundamentally...the same.

Matter is energy made tangible, at least, to our particular senses. Energy is the basis of everything. Ultimately, energy is all there is. Our particular gift is our mind, matter made self-aware. The trick is to not get overly caught up in this one plane; not be totally confined by your "five senses", so that you become unable to interact with the All. The quest for the ability to be more aware, more interactive with things that you do not normally interact with is the basis of spirituality. Faith is a part of that. You have to have faith that you *can*, in fact, see and know more than the here and now.

Many things are hidden, but not nonexistent. It is really, really hard to get in tune with those things, and most people spend a lifetime trying. I know I'm working at it.

The book I recommend most to people is called "The Holographic Universe". It is the closest thing I have yet found that summarizes, as a mostly scientific theory, how all of this works. Believe it or not, it was reading this that finally persuaded me that a spiritual pursuit (in my case, Wicca) could actually yield results.

I was raised Catholic but have since shunned the formal structure of the faith. I believe in God in a religious sense but also in a philosophical sense. Its the most logical answer to the question: what was the first thing to exist?

All this stuff (us and everything around us) came from somewhere or something. God is as good an answer as anything else I can come up with.

So, I believe in God for two reasons. One because my faith provides a structure to my life that I am comfortable with and two, God is an easy answer to a question that, in all likelihood, will never be answered.

Lastly, people who don't believe in God can't prove me wrong any more than I can prove them wrong which is why I don't feel compelled to defend my belief in God nor do I feel compelled to convince others that he exists. I derive no comfort from sharing my belief in the unprovable with others nor do I feel alienated if I am in the company of agnostics or athiests.

Unfortunately, I only have the 'net at work, so I can't always post with as much thought as I'd like when I'm trying to do it without getting caught :) Please bear with my sometimes incomplete trains of thought... That being said,

"Faith is a choice to believe in the absence of evidence" Exactly. Which is MY problem. I find it so difficult sometimes to just believe. I think it's human nature to doubt. Personally for me, I think it's because I don't really like (?) the traditional Christian theology. I was taught growing up that God is omnipotent, all knowing, all seeing. He always has been, is, and will be. He made us, therefore knows everything about us and EVERYONE from Adam and Eve to the very last person EVER. SO, my main problem is, (i think i mentioned this in the abortion thread) if he knew we were going to sin, and fall short of his expectations, etc. etc. why'd he bother? He already knows if we are going to 'take Jesus into our hearts and accept him as our own Lord and Savior' or we're not and therefor end up in 'Hell'. Why didn't he just make perfect beings in the first place?? I feel like we are just his little gerbils in a cage, for his personal enjoyment. He already KNOWS were going to fail, yet he made us anyway. Sick little dude, that God. ;)

I believe too, that everything happens for a reason, and we don't (or can't)know that reason. BigV's explaination I think would be, don't worry, you may not get it now, but there is a method to God's madness. Which is comforting to him. My explaination is, Shit happens. Life isn't fair. I live by the law of averages I guess. For every 'good' thing that happens to someone, a 'bad' thing must also happen, either to that same person, or another. And, because this world is ruled by ramdomness and entropy?, the good and bad things all happen randomly to those in it. That's why some people seem to have good luck, and others bad, no matter how much they 'derserve' one or the other. I guess I feel like it's human nature to want to be comforted by the knowledge that there is a REASON for everything. And religion serves that perpose, giving a reason (God's (or who ever's) will) for what happens that we don't understand. I am comforted in my belief of Randomness, BigV in his belief that God has a plan. We both use it to go about our daily business so we don't go crazy trying to figure out why bad things happen to undeserving people. He feels that God is looking out for him, I feel like I am just in the right place at the right time He thanks God for his blessings, and I thank 'whoever' for my thus far good luck in life. If something 'bad' happens, he says, God, I don't know why, but I trust you have a reason, I say, well shit. that sucks. but look at all the good things that have happened to me, I guess it's only fair I get some crappy stuff too. We both go on and try to make the best out of what doesn't make sense.

Or, maybe I'm just loopy.

Aw, don't start that PETA crap again. :p
Doing the right thing and feeling the kid will follow your lead might work IF you take the time and trouble to explain there are other possible choices. The kid sees what you did but may not be fully aware of what you could have but chose not to do. Sooner or later they are going to think of these other options and will be better off if they are aware that you thought of and rejected those options.
Seems every kid at some point feels they are the first one, in the history of man, to make these discoveries. :)

Shouldnt the statements read "Jesus" instead of Me?

I let the kid take care of business lately. I'm still here, just busy trying to figure out my new computer.

God

Looks like God has the last word for the night.

As well She should!

Oh, Els.....not you too? :eyebrow: ;)

He did. And he gave them free will. They chose to disobey him, and screwed it up for the rest of us. This willfull disobedience is the "Original Sin".

Life isn't the destination, it's the journey.

God didn't create man to fail, but through making the wrong choices, we do. And this is a huge part of what faith is about. You choose to believe or not. If it was proven to you, faith would not be necessary.

You're absolutely right. Life isn't fair, and shitty things happen to really good, moral, Godly people. These are life lessons. Something good will come of it, even if it's good to someone else. You didn't get that job? Someone else did, and maybe they needed it more than you did.

No, I don't think you're loopy at all. It's just a different point of view.

Ugh, see, that's my problem...If perfect means having free will (therefore destined to fail) then why did he make us with free will? He knew we were going to fail when he chose to give us the option of thinking for ourselves. I guess I can't (at this time) get over the fact that he CHOSE to make us so that we were destined to fail. So now all he does is watch us try to obey him to the best of our meager abilities, and (I picture) him laughing at our sad little attempts to be 'God like'. :angel:

Quote OC: "Life isn't the destination, it's the journey. " I totally agree, something that became painfully aware to me when my dad died at 52 when I was 22. Of course, this was probably also the point in my life where I (unconsiously) came up with my little personal theology. The whole 'God has a plan' bit that our church friends were consoling my family with just rang hollow with me. He busted his ass his whole life, and finally was gettting to the point where he could enjoy some of the fruits of his labors, and BAM. Dead. Yeah, someone got some new retinas, and skin grafts or whatever, but really, was denying him what he 'deserved' worth that?? (sorry, 7 years later I guess I am still pretty bitter and emotional.) My faith apparently wasn't strong enough to get me thru and coming up with my own personal philospohy allowed me to come to peace with the unfairness of life (at least partially, apparently). I guess it's in my being to question EVERYTHING. Drives my husband nutso.

**********disclaimer: I do not have the answers***********

this is just my perspective. Let's pretend, you woke up the morning of your wedding and the happiness fairy was standing there and told you it was time for The Choice. She goes on to explain that before you get married you have the choice of giving your husband the ability to choose to love you, honor you, and remain committed to your for the rest of your lives or you could make life a lot less stressful and remove that pesky free will from his make up. He has no choice but to love, honor, and remain committed to you. It would actually be impossible for him to let you down or disappoint you in any way.

It is a hard choice, when you dig a little beneath the surface.

Plan B) You are guaranteed that he will treat you as the queen you are... but if he has no other choice is it as special? Are his actions that honor you as meaningful when you have a few years to realize, it is impossible for him to do anything else?

Plan A) Free Will. You know him very well and you know he will disappoint you in your marriage. He will, at times, say unkind things to you, he will sometimes be thoughtless in his actions, he will often be self centered. There is even a possibility that he might decide his secretary is more appealing than you, at least for a day - inother words he will fail you (and himself)

BUT - and here's the big but, when he does love you and honor you, and treat you as he should - it is infinitely more valuable to you because it is his choice to do so. There is no coercion (sp). He had the ability to go the other direction, but because of his love and commitment to you he has honored you.

anyway - that's my perspective. obedience and good behaviour is meaningless if there were no other option.

Bee-u-tiful. No one has ever explained it to me that way. Totally makes sense. My knee jerk response to the marriage fairy scenario is of course free will. Now, let me chew on this awhile and see what I can find that I don't like about it :lol:

The other side of the choice story is whether you want a life that is filled with meaning or a life that is filled with certainty. Meaning doesn't necessarily pay the bills, so to speak.

The story doesn't fly. God doesn't have needs or wants that are made clear in any part of the manual.

I always thought the story said God created us because he was lonely..? Loneliness is a need/want.

Cite please.

Here's problem #1 with the fairy scenario...She forgot to show me the outcomes, and since I am omnipotent I would already KNOW that if I chose free will, the little bastard would cheat on me, leave his underwear on the floor 12 inches from the laundry basket, and gamble our life savings away. If I was an all loving spouse, saying that I would love you no matter what, why would I send to to eternal damnation if you end up choosing to divorce me (which i knew you were going to do)? (merging the 2 scenarios) Sounds a bit vengeful to me. If God isn't vengeful or jealous, and is supposed to love us no matter what, why send us to hell if we choose not to believe in him/break his rules? my head is starting to hurt

*frantically looking for Bible*

There's got to be one around here somewhere...

*keeps looking*

Of course there's the 'S/He made us so we could worship Him/Her' theory. What an ego! :cool:

Ok--Revelation 4:11 says God created us for His pleasure, so, yeah, you could argue that S/He created us to fuck with us. The Bible says a lot of things. Things that mostly contradict other things. It's a mystery locked in a cunundrum wrapped in an enigma. Or something like that.

That's because you're making the prime mistake when pondering God, thinking.

That's why I used the "made clear" qualifier in my statement.

So you get a choice between a minivan and a sports car? ;)

After reading all the other comments in this thread, I think UT's is the best still. :thumbsup:

Actually, there are very few (if any) contradictions when taking the statement in question in context in the bible that cannot be explained logically.

Please understand I in no way am stating they don't exist, lest the heathens inundate me with examples, just that MOST if not all of them can be explained with Eisegesis. (sp)


and TS, I dont think that you have to check intellectualism at the door of your place of worship. My biggest hurdle is my tendency to have to think things through, and for things to make sense. I can't, no matter how hard I try, have "blind faith", but rather, I have to have reasons why I believe like I do.

Some people can have blind faith, but I can't. And there's a passage in the bible that says specifically DON'T have blind faith, but have reasons why you believe like you do.

I don't think anyone should have blind faith in anything.

Says the woman who thinks the earth is 6000 +/- years old...

Yes, I believe that, but not because it's been simply fed to me, but because I looked at the evidence science has, and I've come to a different conclusion than evolutionists have.

It's not blind faith. In fact, it's precisely the opposite of blind faith, because I have reasons to believe the way I do about the age of the earth.

Blind faith is believing in evolution as a theory of origin...

;)