What is a relationship?
 

It's an odd concept, really. We don't really question it in daily life, you know, he's going out with her, that's his friend, they're in love.

As we are all separate people, individuals, what is behind the notion of having a 'relationship' or connection to someone. I'm not just talking about romantic relationships - friends, family, acquaintances... whatever definition you choose to give to what is essentially regular contact with one person.

There does appear to be an inclination to attach a label to different kinds of relationships, and unfortunately with these labels come a set of rules, for example, 'you wouldn't do that if you were my friend', or 'you should spend more time with me because you're my wife'. Just examples.

Why can't we let people come and go without forming some kind of relationship?

Because I think we're wired to look for and establish relationships between people - on many different levels.

What's the saying - I think it's 'no man is an island'...we can't exist solely on our own - perhaps it part of the process left over from when we 'needed' to work together to survive.

Dunno...interesting concept - never quite thought about it your way.

Because it's more fun and interesting not to mention warm and fuzzy. Labels are another kettle of fish, problem i find is once you remove them it becomes hard to explain things.

Yeah, labels make things easier, but they aren't the truth. I'd rather take longer to understand and get it right than rush into a false conclusion, only to realise 20 years later what a huge mistake I've made. :rolleyes:

gah don't scare me like that! It's kind of hard to avoid the whole label thing, someone asks you, your answer may be nuanced but 99/100 times it'll be concacanated to the nearest term, girlfriend, 'seeing each other', friend, fuckbuddy..... Girlfriend in partiuclar irks the hell out of me. How much does it matter though? The real connections, the boundries, the truth] of the matter are usually unspoken and almost always elude articulation, it's a set of things you just know and feel.

We are a tribal people. The interconnections between and among us are to some extent what defines us, gives us comfort, makes us happy and frustrated.

Yes, true, but the more words/labels/images we apply to ourselves the more difficult it is to see the 'unspoken' reality. We condition ourselves away from the very thing we are here to find out. Madness, really. Also the 'nearest term' might be completely inaccurate, like when you play snooker after pool and realise your angles were actually way off because there's less room for error.

We are a social being. People simply need other people. I am happily maried for almost 15 years but it just so happens I met an AWSOME man who I know I could fall completely and madly in love with. It is instant and 100% natural just as it was/is with my husband WHAT THE F**K :confused: :cool:

Not denying that, it is the problem to a degree. On the topic of madness, read Foucault's Madness and Civilization, not a light read but you'll appreciate it, trust me.

This is exactly what I mean. Don't worry cj there's nothing wrong or odd about your situation. It only seems strange to you because we have accepted the idealistic (ie. wrong) idea that love is exclusive, there's one person for everyone, soulmates etc etc. In fact, love is the opposite. The only true love is the love we feel for everyone, if only we could become aware of it!

Uh, hey cjjulie, before you go leave your husband because of what some hippie told you on the internet ;), let me play Devil's Advocate.

Don't forget that you don't get the time to get to know this person like you did before you married your husband. A relative of mine did that--left a reasonable marriage for someone she instantly clicked with, felt that she would fall madly in love with him, and only a year or so later realized this guy had all sorts of dealbreaker faults that she would have seen had they dated, but because it was an affair there was no time to genuinely get to know each other, and now her marriage was gone and she was miserable.

Judge your marriage based on itself, not compared to what you think might happen with someone else.

Well that's true enough. But your feelings for this other bloke are still real (although maybe only for the short term). Depends if you want to follow your instinct or preserve the perceived stability of a long-term relationship.

The whole point of marriage is that you are making a promise to choose the exclusive relationship. Of course there are more fish in the sea. You are making a promise to ignore those other fish. If you don't want to stop fishing, don't get married.

Don't also forget the dues your husband has paid into the relationship. He has earned a measure of respect for that.

When you said "I do," you took yourself off the market and agreed that no other could come along "with a better offer." I'm honestly not trying to guilt trip you but I am trying to give you some ammo to resist if you are inclined to do so.

Wrong? Its been working for several thousand years.

And how do we raise children in a world without families?

:thumbsup:

No, the myth of singular love has been believed for several thousand years. It's what keeps the family unit together. I'm not saying it's wrong to have children, and I'm certainly not saying the family unit is ineffective in its task - in fact it is one of the most sophisticated evolutionary mechanisms in nature.

If a practice crosses almost all cultural lines through history, there's probably something psychobiological about it.

I have no intention on leaving my husband. We have built a wonderful life together and our sex life has been AMAZING. We both have crushes on other people, and we both think it is healthy. It keeps it hot to know that others are attracted to you and you are attracted to others.

The Party will raise them.

Without the short-hand of labels wouldn't we all go nuts trying to work out what's going on with who?
Without the labels, wouldn't we all forever be making huge social gaffes? (Making a pass at a bloke I've just been introduced to by a woman friend of mine only to discover later that they're in an exclusive sexual relationship, for example?)
Can't you just take the labels as a short and definitely non-comprehensive starting point for identifying that person's place in the social grouping your moving in?
The label I object to most is not the relationship one, but the job one. Speaking as someone who has relatively often taken jobs that are a long way from defining me and my interests I found it hard to be defined as a hospital cleaner or an insurance broker. Neither of these terms were/are adequate descriptions of the person I am.
Yes, I know this post contradicts itself ....

Amen.

I think relational labels are like ANY words....merely words. They describe ones relationship to another for the purpose of (1) telling other people what they mean to you in a shorthand fashion and (2) sometimes telling yourself what a person means to you.

The problem is when people don't agree on what that descriptive label means. "Wife" to one person may mean exclusivity, while to another it's simply the person I come home to every night and breed with.

The important part of any relationship is not what you call it, but what you do with it.

limey, the making a pass at a friend's partner thing - this is what I mean about ownership. Why is it wrong to come on to this person? No one else is in control of your actions. And if the partner chooses to reciprocate - that is their choice. Your mate can like it or lump it.

There was this fat old ugly bird in the pub the other night who was flirting with 'my' bloke - stroking his hair and stuff. 1) I can't do anything about it because it's her choice to flirt 2) it's already happening so even if I could do something about it (like slap her) IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING and 3) if he wanted to fuck her there is absolutely nothing I can do about it, whether we are in a relationship or not. Don't you see, it's his choice. And it would be the same the other way round. My choice.

Now, of course I can choose to abide by rules in a relationship. But the minute my true choice contradicts with these rules (and it will) is the moment to change them.

You don't have a "relationship" then. You have a fuckbuddy.

Why? Where's the line? What exactly did cat say that crosses that? Most of it seemed to be facts to me, she can't do anything directly, just admonish later or end it.

He he he wolf. He he he. We have a debate about labels and she labels me!!

Ah, I'm not going to get through am I.

Cat, if he didn't do anything to stop this big fat chick, then he is obviously not commited to the relationship and that would be the reason you are questioning everything. If it doesn't come naturally its not right....

It's not a relationship! I put 'my' bloke in inverted commas for a reason! Is no one understanding this!

If its not a relationship then who cares if someone was flirting with him, why even bring it up?
When you're in a relationship cat, you'll know it. It still won't matter if someone flirts, but that will be because of confidence, not aloofness.

*sigh*

Ok - I'm trying to break down people's perceptions of relationships. I don't label my relationship with this person not because of some outdated 60s hippy shit, but because there are no rules. I don't call it a relationship but:

- we live together
- we sleep together
- we cuddle a lot
- we have sex
- we do everything together
- we know each other's parents
- I'm his plus one
- most people think we are boyfriend and girlfriend
- we love being with each other

I could go on. To most people, this is a relationship. Just if you call it that (and ok I don't just mean a word, I mean accepting it into your consciousness as a relationship) you lose your freedom. I don't care who you are or how long you've been married, you WILL at some point fancy someone else. The only difference is I have the freedom to pursue it, if I wish. It's like all the good points of a relationship without the holding-back or tieing-down.

I met a man the other night who had been married 20 years or so, and he wanted to travel, to explore, but 'she'd kill me if she found out' and 'she'd never let me'. He was living his life for his wife. And this happens all the time, often to lesser extent on the surface, but not really. You think you own someone. The fat bird/affairs thing was just an example. Just the same as I wouldn't stop him going to China. Just like he wouldn't stop me doing anything I want. I have the warmth, comfort, 'love' if you want to call it that and all the rest without compromising my self in any way.

I still don;t think I've explained this well. I hope someone picks it up.

Ok, so what you're saying is your "relationship" is superior to others because you are prepared to walk away at any point? Someone walks away 50% of the time or so, its good to be prepared for it, but to define your whole relationship around the possibility.... I don't know. I don't see the point.
I'm not one who belives that marriage means you can never again fuck anyone else (I'm not christian), but add a couple of kids and a mortgage and see how thrilled you are when your bloke wants to skip off to China for a few years.

I don't want a couple of kids and a mortgage! I don't define anything! I don't think my relationship is superior! That should answer your post!

I thought that's what you were saying here.

Do you actually have a point? Not to be snarky but I apparently need it spelled right out for me if you do.

Trying to overcome perceptions of relationships. Trying to illustrate, using myself as an example, that the idea of an exclusive relationship is odd, and doesn't work. Huge generalisation that I can back up only by examining each individual case (ie the ones that look like perfect relationships but aren't).

But I am getting frustrated at my own inability to explain myself.

Just wait till your pregnant. You'll have rules squirting out of every orifice.

And, despite your attempt to define a higher state of being than the anthropoligical rut you feel the rest of the world is stuck in, the state you are defining is nearly impossible to distinguish from the "free love" hippie shit you are so determined to distance yourself from.

I see what you're saying. But I don't buy the notion that you have somehow developed the ability to sleep with someone, live with them, meet the 'rents, cuddle, do everything together, etc. etc., and not have an emotional investment. It sounds like you maybe feel *too* strongly and have developed this disconnect to keep from having your heart stomped on.

"I enjoy all the different components of a relationship, but it's not a relationship until I accept it as such," begs to be called bullshit upon. But hey, if you can do it and it actually makes you happy, good on you. Does your not-so-significant other care if guys hump your leg in a bar?

Yes, it's all about choices. When your true choice coincides with not wanting to go off on a whim and fuck someone other than "your" "bloke", then you may know what a committed relationship is about.
That sounds very po-faced and I don't mean it to, it's just that I no longer think that being led by my hormones is what I truly want, and I see that as part of the maturing process. And that sounds snotty, too ... hey ho.

I've never been very good at relationships. However, my boss, a Boston Terrier named "Boss"", looked at me today as I was trying to teach him a new trick, cocked his head as to say you have got to be kidding..... Guess I named him appropriately. :)

Wouldn't one wonder, why he was allowing a big fat chick flirt with him. Maybe it's a fetish, or he is trying to tell you something...... :thumbsdn:

So what your saying is it is *____________* formerly known as a relationship. :confused:

What are you so afraid of? :eek: :confused:

I'd find out if he had a thing for fat chicks. If so, either get fat or leave him. If you don,t like that idea, the next time your in the pub, flirt with the fattest bloat there. He will get the idea one way or another.
If you were asking me what iwas afraid of, I would have to say my sanity or lack of...... :)

That's what happens when you try to convey vague concepts. Try to give them form(words) and you find they're just smoke.
Keep telling yourself it's not really a "relationship" so that if it ends it won't hurt.
You're wrong...it will. :eyebrow:

Hang on when did I say I wasn't emotionally attached or that I wouldn't be distraught if it ended? Of course there are feelings 'invested' and I would rather be with him than anyone else. But if it did end - what am I going to do about it? Ok I'll cry for a bit and then get on with the next moment. If the next moment is filled with sadness so be it, at least I'll be being real.

The fat bird was an example. What do you mean 'why did he allow her to flirt with him?' How would he stop her?! He didn't reciprocate, but he might have done if she was attractive, and there's nothing I can do about it.

Ok, I must say I wasn't so keen on this idea at first, and it did come from him, not me. But for every feeling off 'ooh it would hurt if he went off with someone else' was a huge feeling of relief 'I'm free do do whatever I want.' I'm not sure that I want a committed relationship - and I'm not being forced into one (for a change).

Don't forget I'm still early-20s and he's a bit older than me. I think he's aware I need to, lets say, live a bit more on my own before I think about settling down. Also, he has cheated on every single girlfriend he's had and I have cheated on every boyfriend. So I suppose we're just being honest about the possibility.

The relationship is not based on some idelogical freedom. It's based on good conversations and a unique connection. There are emotions there too, but they don't dictate it. I find when one is too emotional it clouds your vision, and the most important thing to me is my clarity.

He has the same initial reaction I would have - slight discomfort, a bit unsure, an emotional reaction. But he realises this is bullshit. Now, what I mean by that is sometimes we have feelings about someone we think are real but aren't. The jealousy you feel when a partner is with someone else is a proponent of the false 'love'. It is possible to think yourself into loving someone, 'oh, I grew to love him'. Well that is something I want to avoid. I only want a true relationship, and how can you be sure it's true unless you have utmost clarity? This is why I am trying to remove all rules, associations, irrelevant emotions and petty jealousy so I can see if there is an underlying true feeling there. I'm not sure at the moment, but hopefully it will become clear.

Ii get it because I'm trying something similar. It is very hard to articulate, you haven't been doing a bad job. Last paragraph kind of got the gist of it.

I think this is kind of the key, i'll speak for myself only but I think cat would agree on this one: I'm with the person I'm with because we enjoy each other and doing things together however the minute that ends, for whatever reason, we'll part ways and we both understand that fully. Two people doing something simply because they want to, no construct on top to fence it in.

Wow. You've said in four lines what I've taken two days to muddle up. Impressive.

Took a few tries, I've been trying to nail that one for nearly a month.

early twenties. waxing philosophical about relationships, expectations, rules, and the lot. I'm sittin here on the group 'W" bench at the ripe old age of 34. old enough to see through these words to the real message, and young enough to remember when these thoughts went through my own internal process of evolution. Your relationship ( and it IS a relationship) is just like anyone else's. just as you are exactly as unique as everyone else. every relationship has its own set of rules (and you DO have rules). What you are describing is a committed relationship with a partner with the cavat that you willl tolerate casual sex or flirting on the side as long as the core of your relationship remains intact.

see also elf's gig.

The conscious effort to NOT have expectations of your mate is a defense against being dissapointed when they are inevitably unmet or resisted. It works in the beginning, but I think you'll find that as time goes by, and you have more and more time invested with your bloke, his flirting will bother you more and more. If the relationship survives this, you'll move into a place where you actually ARE secure enough, and trust him enough to where the flirting will spice up your own sex life instead of undermining your trust in each other. What if you had not been in that bar where the cow was twirling his hair? do you think he'd have shagged her or come home and knocked the bottom out of YOU?

It's good to define your relationship, not bad. BUT> be honest with each other at all times about the rules and how they make you feel. if you're truly OK with him boinking someone else just because there's nothing you can do to prevent it......well, then fine. Personally I think that just the way you worded that lends to the fact that you DO have a problem with it and have simply resigned yourself to it. Had you said that it doesn;t bother you because sex is just sex, and you know he'll be careful not to catch anything, and it kind of turns you on to see him flirt ...or whatever.....i might buy it. but you didn't.

we'll see

I wasn't in the bar.

He knows it bothers me when he flirts etc.

He is slightly less bothered when I do it because he appears to have overcome that emotional clinginess - or he just feels less for me.

All that remains is that if I want a relationship/friendship with him I have to accept there will be other women.

Also, I am not sure enough that he is 'the one' for me to promise I will never be interested in anyone else, or commit to a relationship.

So when I say there is nothing I can do about it, I mean this is the alternative to not having the friendship. It may build to something greater. It probably won't. Either way, the times when we are together work; although I'm not entirely sure why. I could write a list of things but that would be selling it to you and probably myself. And it's enough to put up with the odd fling.

Still, I've missed your occasional wisdom lj! ;)

LJ is right about frlirting with other people. My DH and I flirt all the time with others and it only serves to spice things up. It works because we both TRUST each other in our marriage. I LOVE hanging out with the other guy I talked about, but when it comes right down to it, he's goin' home alone and I'm going home with my DH.

On the other hand, what I wouldn't give to be in my early 20s again :eek: :shocking: *looks around* who said that?

Here here.

see also elf's gig.

I think you're missing the balance of it. If Cat can get through the jealousy issues no worse for wear, then it works the other way around too. So she's free, too, and has every right to expect him to give her that much.

As far as I can see, the relationship Cat's talking about offers a comfortable place to be. For the here and now, it works. But I agree. It is a relationship, and there are rules no matter how vague they may be. There's something that you or he could do (breaking a trust would be the most obvious) that would end the relationship, and that makes it rules. Makes sense?

Yes I suppose if he murdered a family member I might be a little confused. Or if he jetted off to Australia for 2 years without telling me. Or refused to speak to me for no apparent reason. I would feel a little strange, upset, bewildered. But after the initial reaction I'm sure I'd be fine. No point crying over spilt milk, as we say this side of the Atlantic. So wipe it up and pour another cup.

Yes, there probably are rules, it's not really that different from any other relationship, in fact its not different at all. I'm just using me as an example. I'm trying, but I definitely don't know all the answers yet, and if I did I'd probably have some difficulty applying them. I suppose I'm being... idealistic. Or just kidding myself. Whatever, it works. And if it ain't broke...