Catwoman's Important and Consequential Personal Drama (don't read if easily bored)
 

Well it's been a year (at least) since I posted about this.

Last time I was 'in love' (god we use that word lightly) and the object of my affections was, shall we say, undecided.

I don't know if I was in love then, but I think I might actually be now. I remember telling myself at the time not to actually fall in love. But I fell into it. Splash. Oops.

So... the relationship has been in many moulds since then. I find I am increasingly confused by the situation and not getting what I want; or what I think I want (and I can't tell the fucking difference between the two).

He wants, in his own words: 'Company, conversation, a bit of sex when I want it - with you and anyone else I like, and that's about it. I do not want a relationship. I don't want to marry you or have kids.'

I want, in my own words: 'Company, conversation, sex when I want it, physical affection, and to feel able to sleep with the odd guy and know I'm not going to break your heart. I don't want to get married (ever), or have children (right now).'

Some more astute people than I would notice a few minor imbalances there.

When asked, 'Do you care about me?' his reply is 'Yes, of course.'

When asked, 'Do you love me?' his reply is 'I don't know.'

When asked, 'Why haven't we had sex for ages?' his reply is 'Because I don't want you to get the wrong idea and get hurt. I don't want a relationship.'

The 'relationship' has, at different points throughout the past year or so, been wonderfully sensual, slightly distant, excited and passionate, just friendly, awkward, argumentative, strained, sex, no sex, and casual. I have been uncaring, in love, passionate, confident, insecure, fretful, determined, anxious and content. He has maintained a completely level head and repeatedly tells me 'nothing has changed since we met'.

His reasons for not wanting a relationship, in his own words, are, 'It's not real, we'll end up caught up in the things other couples get caught up in, like conservatories and relatives and new furniture.'

Now what he means by this is he doesn't want to lose his clarity. He is a very aware and rational person, and lives his life with minimal - if any - emotion. He believes it confuses people and stops them from seeing clearly, which I agree with.

EVERY other relationship he or I have ever seen or been involved in has ended badly. I don't mean dramatic break-ups or abuse; I mean people get together for the wrong reasons: the woman wants children, the man's 'making do', they're both insecure. Whatever the reason, between us we have never seen 'real love' in action and so doubt its existence.

So, our relationship right now is based on 'enjoying each other's company' (his words) and not 'love' (whatever that means). We'll stay 'together' for as long as we like spending time together.

Now this makes sense to me, you do see a lot of couples who don't appear to like each other very much: she wishes he would change, or he wishes she would stop nagging (just examples). We like each other exactly as we are, except I keep wanting to change something. I want more from him, and I'm ashamed of this because everything I've written so far makes sense.

What on earth could I want? Does this mean real love does exist, and I want that emotional connection more than anything? Do I just want his exclusive attention (ie I'm a bit insecure). Am I sticking to what I know? I was in love for the first time 5 years ago, with a different guy, and I thought that was real. But that didn't work either. And I don't love him now (I don't think).

Anyway it's a different feeling now. More subtle, likes it's there, but not ready to come out yet.

I think I'm rushing ahead of myself as usual.

So, I have come to the conclusion that I should simply 'go with the flow' and wait and be patient and see if any 'love' type thing results from this relationship, without hoping for it or rushing it or crying when I don't get it.

It's more difficult than that day to day though, emotions often get the better of me and I can't decide whether blocking them will make me stronger or turn me into an uncaring rock.

I can't seem to accept the situation as it is, and all my questions and answers seem so vague I often doubt if I'm talking about anything remotely tangible. Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what the fuck I'm going through, or if I'm not 'going through' anything and merely creating problems for myself to reinforce the comfort of sadness and feel bad in my identity.

I can see two ways of looking at it:
1: You're getting taken for a ride.
2: Wonderful bloke with a lot of bats in the belfry, you might be able to get what you want from it down the road if you can ever get him to relax but it's far from certain.

conservatories and relatives are complicated. They happen anyway, it's just if you're with someone long enough they come up together. This will probably sound like right crap but if you can keep perspective and really above all, keep an open and honest dialogue (which is fucking hard) you can deal with conservatories, paint shades and even bedspreads without breaking out in a severe rash. Even jokes about kids have me plotting the route to the door, it's all about perspective. If anything the dealbreakers aren't stuff like conservatories it's stuff like joint bank accounts where you end up with any kind of dependance or interdependency, that's the shit you really need to avoid because then it's not on your own terms.

I think - as a couple - we could manage this. He thinks I will lose perspective and will always want something more from him, which (frustratingly) has proven true all along. I have always wanted more from him, but I think that is because I don't even have a 'base level' relationship. He calls me his 'friend'. If I was his 'girlfriend' I know I would never want anything more than that, and I could retain my clarity/honesty/openness.

I have explained all this to him, and he says he believes me, and that maybe it's because he's afraid HE will lose perspective. I think he's just saying that as a possibility - because he's so damn rational - and if he secretly, underlyingly wanted a relationship, he'd go for it and not hold back for whatever fear he may conjure up.

I think you're right - either I'm taking myself for a ride (because he's always maintained his position and never led me on, not verbally anyway) - or I'm way ahead of myself and need to just let things be.

He's not in love with you. What else do you need to know? We've all been there and it sucks but it is what it is. There is no answer.

The one who cares the least dictates the relationship so either stay along for the ride (he's driving) or have him drop you off somewhere. When you get to the point where you realize that no relationship is preferable to a relationship characterized by hopes that will never materialize then you will have the freedom you seek out relationships that offer what you need instead of the nauseating uncertainty that seems to characterize the relationships you have described here.

Out of curiosity, are there a number of guys that have been available to you that other women thought were decent guys but that you found hopelessly normal, uninteresting or predictably boring? I think some people suffer from a malady whereby they form attachments to people who aren't really capable of returning the affection - for these people, the idea of a relationship with someone who can offer them unconditional acceptance and love is just unappealing. I don't know if this describes you or not but if it does, its a problem that needs fixin.

I wonder if you're in love, either, Catwoman. I think you want to be in love, though, despite what you tell yourself to the contrary. But without commitment, the emotional love part goes away. You gotta work at adult, mature love. Doesn't sound like either of you want to do that. "I want you to stick around, but I want to be free to bed others at will" sounds like you've become accustomed to each other and don't want to lose what little affection you share, but you're not in love. Not by a long shot.

Just my opinion, of course.

I agree with Beestie, He's just not that into you. Stop making excuses and coming up with explanations for his behavior. Apply Occam's Razor.

Terrible shock, isn't it, to find you want to try to be all feministy, free, modern, able to have casual sex, and biology kicks in and there you are (quite possibly) in love.

Reread the thread where you were upset at some drunk woman in a bar for pawing him.

You were in love then.

He's just having sex, and apparently not a lot of that lately.

Ok ok, here's the truth.

I cannot understand WHY he isn't into me. Now, before you all start shouting your heads off or leaving the thread in disgust, let me explain.

I am perfect for him in every way. Superficially (and lets not pretend this isn't important) I have the looks he likes best (without going into a Hustler-esque description), I'm sexy (his words) and I have staying power and I am genuine and won't mess him around (I don't think).

Less superficially, I like him for him, just as he is, unlike a lot of girls who fall for his looks or identity or just want his children.

Even less superficially, we can talk to each other like no one else, we have both said on many occasions that we are the ONLY person who understands and we don't want to lose that.

As well as this, when we have been close physically, I 'sense' or at least I feel a slightly deeper connection, it's probably all me but there's a little part of me telling me he feels it too, to a degree.

There's more, but I don't want to get too detailed.

Now my question and continual pursuance of this matter is related to love in general, I suppose. If he doesn't love me, and love exists, then it is not rational or related to preferable genes or biology, but in fact more elusive and much harder to define than 'oxytocin'.

If love doesn't exist, I have hit upon the best relationship I am ever likely to encounter and should shut the fuck up and enjoy it for what it is.

Forgot to add that no I'm not trying to pretend this is a brilliantly executed scientific experiment of mine. It's all real and that last post has only just occured to me.

Love does exist, and the heart wants what it wants. Sounds like you guys make a terrific set of best friends though.

I wrote a reply to this but it's disappeared.

Yes, I am generally not interested in guys for the above reasons. They bore me to tears and I know they have nothing to offer. My first 'true love' gave me unconditional love and acceptance, but I got bored of that. What the fuck is the matter with me?

I want someone to stimulate me, excite me AND love all of me and for me to love them the same. Is that really so impossible?

nah, it's possible. And you should hold out for it. Of course, no one is exciting, stimulating, and loving 24/7, and the day might come when you yearn for normality. Remember the Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times" (botched it, but that's the idea).

You'll eventually grow out of needing to be amused (not patronizing you, it's just a fact) and start feeling the need to give more than you receive. Ask anyone how they felt when their first child was born. That kind of feeling will be the one that signals "twoo wuv".

My first tip is when you are typing your posts, type CTL+A then CTL+C every so often including right before you submit. This will copy the post into the buffer so if it gets lost, you can easily CTL+V to get it back.

I think its the "stimulate" part that's giving you trouble. It really sounds like you are "stimulated" by overcoming rejection (or a lack of complete acceptance) from people you are attracted to. Once they accept you, the stimulation is over and the boredom begins.

There is a solution to that problem but it involves professional assistance. You'll have to do some digging around in your past to figure out where that need is coming from and, for lack of a better word, engage it. It will require some work on your part and some time but if you don't start making some progress, the pattern will repeat and form a deeper and deeper groove and only get harder to climb out of.

One other thing to think about. You said that you were "perfect" for him. Well, that guy that loved you without condition was "perfect" for you.

It's not impossible.

It *IS* luck of the draw, chemistry, *mutual desire* and above all, LOTS OF HARD WORK.

That makes it improbable.

You are in love with him. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this basic fact?

Love is what it is, and it's different for every single person, and you will not love every person the same way. If you aren't happy with what you're getting from him, get it somewhere else.

My first 'true love' gave me unconditional love and acceptance, but I got bored of that. What the fuck is the matter with me?

That guy probably thought he was perfect for you, too. But the reality is he wasn't because your feelings for him obviously didn't last. You want to be perfect for this guy, but the reality is probably that you are not, or his interest would continue to be piqued.

I think you deserve lasting, mutual love, and you are very likely to find it--once you set yourself free from the hope of an unlikely relationship with this guy, and start looking for someone who is also in love with you. Hell, tell this guy that since he knows you so well, and understands your need for a more involved relationship, could he perhaps introduce you to anyone he thinks might be right for you? It might be just what he's hoping to hear.

Yeah, a second read of your post brings something else to memory...

When I was with my last girlfriend and was "over it" when she wasn't, I behaved in an eerily similar fashion to your b/f. I was too much of a coward to just break it off, so I became more and more distant, hoping she would break up first. Not admirable, but fairly common behavior.

For me, the biggest problem is that "love" is not one single, indentifiable quantity. It is very different things for different people. I've got four, actual, real, sincere cases of it in my 48 years, and not a damned one of them has anything in common with the classic ideal of the concept.

As near as I've been able to figure out, love is being able to stand the bad stuff about someone long enough to get any of the good stuff out of the whole arrangement. That's why it takes work. That's why it takes self-sacrifice.

I think it is putting the other person's needs before your own, even if they don't know what they are, or recognize that you're doing it. I think you fall out of love when you get tired of beating your head against a wall, and then you go find someone who will give you what you've been giving everyone else for such a long time.

Ideally, we'd meet someone who would give just as much to us as we do to them. Seems like there's always an imbalance somewhere.

Noted, thanks.

Not true, I don't think. The simple truth is I want a guy that's not interested, and I grew out of a guy who was. I don't think I have any deep-seated stimulation issues... but I will think about this.

He wasn't - we couldn't talk. He didn't understand me, so I couldn't understand how he could love 'everything about me'. He didn't know everything about me. This is where the current guy comes closer - he knows a LOT more, nearly everything. I think that's it, actually. I want someone to 'know' me, all of me, to understand. I think I'm asking something quite impossible.

I don't know if I'm in love with him. I thought you were supposed to 'just know' if you're in love. And he's not interchangeable, like a brand name. I can't just switch from Coke to Pepsi because Coke gives me wind. Ah you know what I mean. I can only get what I want from HIM. Which is very unfortunate for me.

Mmm. Not a bad idea. But I know he doesn't know anyone.... might say something like that to help take some pressure off him though, if that's what he's feeling. I'd feel a bit fake mind. Anyway, I'm not looking for "a relationship". I'm hoping for a deeper relationship with him.

Yes, why is that? Do you think we just settle, because we think real love is too improbable? So, for example, I'm settling for him even though he's not giving me everything I need, and he's settling for me even though he's 'just not that interested'?

Yes, I think that's probably what it amounts to. Don't know why I take it as an insult, friends will probably last much longer than a relationship anyway. But there's not the intensity or passion that drives me. But I do keep forgetting intensity and passion is short lived. I think I'm chasing that elusive 'high' and thinking I can sustain it, which of course is bollocks.

That's how I felt with my 'first love'. I knew then, too; I knew I loved him. Wonder what went wrong there.

Last night I cried, and told him everything.

He says there isn't anything there and that he's been trying to tell me that for ages.

He says he's not hiding anything, and if there was something there he'd know about it.

I was quite evidently devastated.

He said 'I can't deal with this, sorry, I'm taking the easy option', and left the room. I cried more.

He came back pretty quickly and asked me why I was crying. I said 'because you just said there's nothing there'.

He got into my bed, and, confused and tearful, I said 'how can there be nothing there?'.

Then he left again, saying 'I'm going to have to sleep on it'.

In the morning, he said he does have emotions for me but he doesn't show them because I would get confused.

I said, 'so you do have feelings for me then?'

He said, 'see, you're confused already.'

And then, 'I can't explain it because you won't understand it.'

$10 to the first one to tell me what the fuck he's feeling.

He's feeling the first tinges of fear that he will lose his source of sex. In my uneducated opinion.

But we're not having sex! His choice.

Sorry you are in this spot, Catwoman. I've been there too, years ago, and it sucks.

He was pretty clear. There is nothing there. He cares for you, I'm sure, because you have spent so much time together and know each other so well. He's sorry to see you sad. He's trying to soften the blow. But his own words are that there is nothing there. You need to accept that. He isn't the one for you.

is he bisexual?

Unfortunately, with love, it seems like one person always loves more.
It's hardly ever equal. You are the one doing the loving and he's not- and it seems impossible to you that this could be true because of all the feelings you have when you're near him.

He doesn't have those feelings and he's confusing the hell out of you because he doesn't want to hurt you. Maybe he feels guilty for stringing you along. Maybe he likes you as a friend only, but he keeps the romance there so you'll stick around, because he knows it wouldn't be the same if you were strictly platonic? Even though you're not having sex, is he sleeping in the bed with you?

You said that his last relationship ended badly. It's really reeeeally hard for some men to ever open up again after a heartbreak.

I went through a stage similar to what it seems like he's going through. I had a bad breakup with my ex-husband and then another 2 1/2 year relationship.
For the next two years, I dated quite a few guys.
A few of them claimed to be in love with me. I played along with it because I like the company and attention, but I guarded my emotions and I never felt for them the way they felt for me.

It's always nice to have someone to talk to and sleep with, but I've done that with guys I didn't have a speck of feelings for, even though they really liked me. It was all because I just wasn't totally healed from my past. There was no way I could open up to them because of the timing.

Maybe if I had met them at a later point, I would've fallen head over heels in love with them, because they were "perfect for me", but at the time that I met them, that didn't matter. I was in self-defense mode.

One day, something in me clicked and I decided that it was time for the barriers to come down. I decided that I was ready to love someone again.

I met my husband and fell in love with him three times: At first sight, two weeks later- a little more real, and right before we got married- completely.

It's all in the mind. If you're not ready to fall in love, you just won't let yourself. He isn't going to let himself. Maybe someday in the future he'll realize he's ready and you two will be the best thing ever, but I would'nt bother waiting around.

Either use him for exactly what he is, or move on and stop missing out on the guys that will reciprocate your feelings.

He is. But I'm not the one for him. That's really hard to accept.

Why did you ask that?

Mmm. Is it just there, the love, waiting for both people to pick up on it? Or is it just one person's emotional imagination.

Yes, all that's true, I think. There isn't really any romance, just a bit of playfulness. We haven't had sex in ages, and sleep in the same bed probably once or twice a week. But while we used to lie very close, he's started moving away from me over the last few months, like right at the beginning. He said the first time that he didn't want to have sex or get too close, that it would mess things up.

Probably a part of the problem, though not all of it. I think he could overcome that if he really was... interested.

If I was to go, it certainly wouldn't be because I wasn't 'bothering'. I can be bothered to wait, if it's worth it. I just don't know. I don't want to throw away this friendship... although it is quite one-sided... I don't know where I'd go. I haven't got any idea about anything right now.

The longer you stay with him, the more your self esteem is going to plummet. You are in love with a guy that doesn't want to love you because for some reason, you're "not the one".

And I won't even try to say I know the best way to get over somebody and move on, because my methods tend to lean towards self-destructive- but they work.

You could either move 2000 miles away from him so that it would be impossible to see him without a lot of planning and money. (It worked like a charm when I left my ex-husband!)

OR: Start reading self-help books every morning when you wake up and every night before bed. Actually brainwash yourself with them. Anthony Robbins is great for this. Read them a lot- they start to sink in. Then they make you feel like you are a worthy person again and change is good and you're ready for it...

Brainwash yourself to believe that the only thing important in the whole wide world right now is your happiness. Do whatever it takes to make yourself happy. In my case, I maxxed out a credit card, dressed well and partied hard. I also had a string of shallow relationships where I was the rejector.

It works because it takes your mind off of HIM. It keeps you busy. And you get to see that there are plenty of guys out there who will love you - and that they are all different.

There's someone for everyone. I don't like guys who are too mushy and sweet and nice either- I know where you're coming from- but they all love differently and you'll find your type if you get yourself out there.

Come up with a plan. A plan to make yourself happy. A plan to keep yourself busy at night. A plan for what to do when the phone rings and you know it's him, a plan for what to do if you cry, if you're lonely, etc- and then erase him from your life.

But I don't know enough about it to go running! It might be a terrible mistake that will fuck me up forever! It doesn't seem right to go, and where would I go anyway? Running around the country, perpetually escaping the reality of a man who doesn't love me? It'll be with me close enough whether he's there or not, so why make it harder. At least by staying I have his company, and who knows, things might change. I've come to realise you can't predict your life, and I need to stay in touch with what I feel to know what's right, and if anything, this situation has helped me be me, and be honest.

The last thing I want is another guy. Maybe for sex, but not a relationship. I couldn't give him anything. Self-help books aren't really self-help at all - it's relying on someone else's words and experience to help you out of a self-destructive rut. Besides, I think he's the best self-help I could get.

I still understand your point of view, even though it's the exact opposite of what everyone here thinks is right for you. I get it.
You're trying to gain insight by asking for advice, but in your heart, you already know exactly what you want to do/ will do. I've done the same thing here.

If I listened to everyone here, I would've divorced my husband twice already, but we're still together and I'm happy about that.

No one really knows the situation like you do and it's so easy to give advice. It's not easy to receive and utilize, though.

Do what you have to do, but please try to find a way to hang on to some sense of self-worth and self esteem. THAT'S what you need to be latching on to right now.

So, is this it?

The up side: we all need a little friendship and intimacy, and as long as you get it to some degree in this relationship, you won't need to go looking for it elsewhere.

The down side: you won't go looking for it elsewhere.

The twist: this applies to the gentleman as well.

*Confused*

You think it applies to him as well? But he doesn't share the feelings I have. Do you think we're both going through the same thing, and I've just taken it way further than he has. He's seen it for what it is, and I'm pushing it for something 'more'?

That kind of makes sense.

It just seems to me that you are staying with him because you are afraid of not being with him. Paradoxically, you won't be able to figure out how to survive without it until you can learn to survive without it. "It" being whatever it is that he is unwittingly providing to you in this relationship.

At this point, he just wants out but doesn't want a sticky mess on his hands. Honestly, you would be doing both of you a favor by doing the dirty work yourself - its an act of courage but you need to keep a stiff upper lip and make a decision not to put your emotional fate in the hands of someone who hasn't put his emotional destiny in yours. Set yourself free. If you don't do it now, he's gonna fall for someone that rings his bell and he'll do it for you. Better for you to what needs to be done before its done unto you. Trust me on that.

But, all the clinical bullshit aside, just be good to yourself and gear up for the difficult task ahead. One thing that might help to think about is that the rest of your life is NOT going to suck. When in love, it seems like the other person has the keys to your happiness. They don't and the feeling that they do will pass eventually.

Next time you pass by a bookstore, have a look at this book as well as other writings by Leo Buscaglia.

http://images.barnesandnoble.com.edg...00/1064382.gif

NO. DON'T DO IT CAT!!! NO, NO BUSCAGLIA!!!! Oh the humanity!!

I don't think you're in the same place, necessarily. It all depends on how emotional one is, how social one is, how dependent one is on affection, that sort of thing. So maybe both of you are fulfilling some of your needs in the situation, but your needs are different than his in type and amount.

I read it about 20 years ago. Its not that bad and something about Cat's post reminded me of it. I seem to remember that it had a lot of good things to say about the expectations people go into relationships with. I wasn't all that crazy about the "hug everyone in sight" parts but I did manage to get something out of it when I was in a similar situation.

What could go wrong? Its not like I traded my wing tips for Birkenstocks after reading it. Besides, a lot of people did stuff in the 80s they wouldn't do again :)

This is my take ,but relationships are by nature personal as are individual’s feeling so you are the only one who can solve your dilemma.
It’s spring when everyone’s heart turns to love, the future, happy sun filled days etc.. Which in part explains your quandary.

A guy’s perspective.

I have many friends in a beachside community and they are happy “single” and just like to swim, golf, ride m/bikes, read, relax etc.. I guess in a way they’ve dropped out and don’t want a regular job with all the restrictions on one’s time that they entails. If they want female companionship they go and find it, if they don’t ….

CW. You want a steady guy but no necessarily exclusively as described. Yes?
HE: Wants essentially the same but not necessarily the extended “sleep-overs” relationship thing.

You are obviously not happy with the status quo otherwise you wouldn’t have asked.

You don’t need ANYTHING else from him? Are you happy being alone?

From my experience it all starts out Ok but gradually women want more than they claim. Women are always trying to make the “relationship” work whereas guys are just happy being intimate pals. Some guys just don’t want to be responsible for others. Maybe they’ve done that before. Some guys are not “relationship” types. Oh they might settle down etc., because that’s what society, family, friend expect but they are not absolutely happy.

I don’t believe in this there’s someone for everyone romantic BS. I believe there are lots of people for everyone and in the ability to love more than one person. I’m not a stud by any means but I’ve had quite a few sexual partners. Every one has a special place in my heart, even if it was a quid pro quo relationship, some more special than others admittedly.

If he spends more time with you than with “others” and you spend more time with him. If he phones you frequently just to say hi, etc.. If you can phone him just to say Hi, without any other “agenda. Then it’s probably already working for him.”

Sounds like it’s you that has to do all “ the work” so it’s not working for you. If so there are three solutions. Accept the part of him he’s willing to give, use this relationship as a stable base to explore others or get out cold turkey. I would suggest for self-esteem, confidence, and peace of mind the second alternative.

It’s spring Happy Hunting.

PS shoulder always available

so what's new? Did you give up? Update, please.

at the moment i have a bad crush on my friend's sister. she's engaged. i love me some inaccessible women.

grumble.

I love inaccessible men! Why are we so twisted? Is it that we really don't want a relationship? Or do we just truly like pain? :spank:

both, undoubtedly. All the flutteries of crushdom, none of the responsibilities. Plus you get to roll in misery for a few days. Very tortured artist. Most of my shirts are black, too.

If you're not the one for him, then he's not the one for you, however much you'd like to think otherwise. Finding the perfect fit means that you must both agree that it is the perfect fit. :2cents:

While those ominous words 'we need to talk' were never explicitly uttered, we had a much needed series of conversations this weekend. They began and ended fluidly over two days, and I think we've hit a resolution.

He was feeling pressured. He felt the relationship had entered the typical '2-year' stage: woman wanting more, man not knowing what's supposed to have changed. He was happy, but woman's recent emotional instability, combined with what he perceived as clingy jealousy, led to feelings of entrapment and loss of freedom. He wanted to feel free to chat up other girls without woman crying every time, and insisted he doesn't want a full-on relationship.

I don't know why I've put that in the third person.

So, I absorbed the above points with some difficulty but managed to fight through my emotional resistance/denial and accept it. He doesn't want a relationship.

As I expected, as soon as I actually accepted it, it changed. Well, not entirely, it's still true, but my feelings changed and enabled me to see a lot more clearly.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to write this down.

Well, the truth is I don't want a typical 'relationship' either. We both see freedom in our futures, not a life trapped by committments or 'should and shouldn't's' (have you ever seen that many apostrophes at once?). Learning about life is much too important to both of us to restrict it by imposing rules upon ourselves. Yes, that all sounds very hippy and unreal but this is actually true for us.

What I mean is, we can both feel free to live every moment with no restrictions. If I meet an enchanting stranger, I can enter his/her world with no guilt, until the magic ends. If I see an opportunity, and want to move away, or fly to Mongolia, I can. If he finds himself in a similar situation, I will hold no ties, he can feel free to do whatever he likes with his life.

If it happens that doing whatever we like means being with each other, all the better. If not, oh well. I can accept it, and with that acceptance comes a huge range of possibilities that never seemed quite so possible.

Once I had realised this, he felt free to open up about his feelings without giving me false hope of a more secure relationship.

Having established our feelings for each other are more or less the same, I felt a huge burden lifted - I could now concentrate on any real problems, not an endless spiral of 'he loves me, he loves me not'.

So I realised, while I've been complaining and crying, I've been having the kind of relationship I've always dreamed of. Right now.

And it is what it is. I won't hyperbolise. It's not fountains and fairytales, it's just real. And I'm happy in a way I think will last, whether he does or not. I feel like I've realised something more important than this relationship, that things are what they are, and that I'm incredibly lucky in being able to see it.

Just to add to the post above, if he did 'leave' for someone else, I would still be devastated. The feelings are still there, the only difference is I can accept what's now. I'm not trying to protect myself from the future by 'securing' him in the net of a relationship. I would never stand between him and someone else, if that's what he wants to do. I'll let 'now' happen and if it's meant to be, it will be!

Of course this is subject to change and may not be the enlightened clarity it sounds. Watch this space this time next year; I for one will be interested to see how this stands the test of time and turmoil....

How lucky you must be to feel unobstructed by any desire for a deeper, closer, more supportive, more loving and more personally and emotionally fulfilling relationship, so that you are free to learn about life.

please read the above absolutely deadpan for maximum effect

That may or may not come, but if it does, it will come on its own, and my desire for it or lack thereof will have no impact whatsoever.

When you said you didn't want a typical 'relationship' I thought you were talking in general terms, not just with this guy.

I read all this as:

On a scale of 1 to 10, he's "into you" like a 6. He accepts this relationship because it fulfills his needs, but wants to be unencumbered in case an 8 or 9 comes along. You're into him like a 7. He tweaks a few of the things you need and if he was into you like an 8, this would be an Official long term relationship with the kisses and the sex and the phone calls to say why you were late, and the Rules.

The Rules seem like restrictions for people who are a 6 or 7 into each other; for people who are a 9 into each other, they are signs of commitment and caring. For a guy who's a 6 into someone, he doesn't want ANY of those Rules; they're a horror.

That'd be it then. I don't know, it doesn't seem to matter. His or my reasons for being there are somewhat irrelevant - we are both there, for now. If genuine feelings are there they'll come through in the end.

I agree with you, btw, if you're 100% into someone, you embrace the 'rules' - in fact they wouldn't be rules at all, more an unspoken coalescence... or knowledge... oh I don't know the word, but I agree with you anyway. But these can only come naturally, they can't be enforced by imposing a relationship where there isn't one. It will come of it's own accord, or it won't. Simple really.

I was totally with you, up until the last two sentences. It will come of its own accord with someone down the line, not with this guy. Deep, emotional love doesn't usually develop after two years of 6-ness. You're both waiting for someone better to come along. Which is fine--enjoying each other's company in the meantime can be reasonably rewarding--as long as you're actually keeping your eyes open for that someone better, and not looking only at this guy to see if the feelings do ever develop.

Yes, good point, I shall take care to be open to everything/body - something I need to work on anyway. I'm happy for now, anyway.

I think that you are too in love with current man to be looking elsewhere, because you will be comparing your current relationship, such that it is, with the unknown future relationship and weighing it in.

You'll take the known, comfortable road, instead of taking a risk, ie chucking it in with current guy and going balls out for new guy.

You're dooming yourself to this relationship limbo.

I think somewhere deep down I'm aware of this, but am happy with the relationship as a safety net. He's a good friend who helps me in a lot of ways. This is obviously enough for me or I wouldn't still be sticking around.

Guys want sex. Most of the time. Why would he not want frequent accessible sex from me? We're attracted to each other. He's holding off because he thinks I'll get too involved. He doesn't want to get involved. It would get a bit too stuffy I suppose, and lose it's appeal after a while, become routine. Then one or both of us would get bored and leave. End of story. Hmm I see what he's getting at. But surely if true feelings are there we wouldn't get bored? Why does he feel the need to 'keep me (and possibly himself) keen'? Isn't that manipulating it a bit?

I don't really understand it, but it is the way it is, and if I really didn't like it, I'd leave. Maybe I will. :juggle:

I'd say they are willingly chosen when involved with "the one". Again my :2cents: