It depends on what the meaning of "name" is...
 

Am I reading this right? Rove is saying he didn't name Valerie Plame to a reporter, he just said "Joe Wilson's wife"? I mean, unless Mr. Wilson was a polygamist, doesn't that narrow the field a bit?

Or am I missing something here?

No, I don't think so!

I swear I heard angels humming when I read this. Time will tell if PowerNerdBoy has any mojo left...

Maybe they're going by his "intent" to harm her vs. intent to just be "truthful" and clear Cheney? But even then, being caught being unintentionally stupid with classified info is not so swell for the big guns. Why would Rove clear Cooper to reveal him? This is weird.

hmmmmmmmmm... let's see here.
· Does Rove's current position pass the smell test?
let me think.......

It could be that the information would have come out in another few weeks. Most of the worst damages to the White House since Watergate have been cover-ups, not actual acts.

Rove might survive the damage, but not if he helps send a reporter to jail for months to cover his ass. If he knew that he was the source being protected, and did not come forward, that might be considered obstruction.

Isn't it still treason (I'm not trying to be melodramatic. I'm serious.) to identify an undercover CIA agent? Isn't the death penalty one of the possible sentences for treason?

Why are the Democrats only asking that he be fired? Why isn't Rove sitting in a cell right now, being interrogated by the FBI?

Because getting asked to resign and then hired by a conservative think tank and/or lobbying firm is the maximum punishment for a disgraced Republican operative.

Its sick to think that Rove would undermind CIA wmd intelligence operatives (not just Plame but those she worked with that were made useless and/or placed at greater risk by association) at a time of war. That sounds like treason.

be fair, the same is true of any DC player. R or D.

At least Traficant and Rostenkowski served some prison time, first.

I would still rather indulge Traficant over Rove any freakin' day. Traficant was a simple megalomaniac. Rove thinks he's god.
Traficant forced people to work on his farm. Rove wants a rapture.

He's filthy.

Actually, I doubt Rove is that particular brand of nut. But he does know how to use them.

I'm happier than a pig in mud over all of this. The exact same sort of BS tap dancing that went on in the Clinton administration will now proceed in the Bush II administration. Bush I once said that anyone who revealed the identity of an operative was guilty of treason. Thanks a lot, Dad! :lol:

The reason Rove gave up the operative was because her husband had reported that there was no evidence that Saddam had ever tried to buy uranium (which we now know to be pretty much true, as the accusation was based on fake documents - looks like CBS and Admin Bush II are tied 1-1 in this department, huh?). In other words, Rove ratted her out to punish people for saying that his boss was either a liar or a moron.

I can't wait to find out how they're going to spin this so that it was okay for him to do it. I think it is pretty much going to come down to someone having to say, "We *are* the government, and what we say is okay *is* okay...okay?" :eek:

Rove has rock star's disease. He's been so successful for so long at what he does, that he thinks himself above everyone and everything else, and therefore need not abide by the same rules as the peons.

I wonder what color of M&M's he likes?

One thing I've never understood about the Plame story is how her CIA role affected the facts of the Niger case. I can understand that destroying her career could be retribution for Wilson's whistleblowing, but news coverage has often characterized the outing as an attempt to discredit the facts of the case. Does anyone know how that was supposed to have worked?

Super-secret government source: You know Joe Wilson's Niger story? Pure bunk! His wife's CIA!

Reporter: CIA, huh? I guess I can't believe anything Wilson says!

Were they trying to say that the CIA was trying to undercut the administration?

Wait a minute ... did I miss something along the line ... I thought that Plame was named by Bob Novak in a story that ran prior to the Time reporter's conversation ... has Novak named his source?

That's it? The other perspective is that because she sometimes worked out of Langley, she wasn't covert?

I work in DC. I have known 1 person who is covert CIA - fake ID's and all (When you are close friends with someone, they tell you secrets. They are not supposed to, but they do.) I've also known a few people who openly work at the CIA, but don't talk about it much. Covert people go to Langley too.

I have read that Plame's cover was that she was an energy analyst for the private company Brewster Jennings & Associates, which was subsequently acknowledged by the CIA as a front. Why would they go through the trouble of creating a cover for her, if she wasn't undercover? Just because some people knew she was undercover, doesn't mean it was a widely known secret.

Looks like the leakage happened before Mr. creepy Novak broadcast it, and one of the ooopses is that Rove initially publically stated that he learned about Plame's identity and work from Novak's piece, even though his email to Cooper predates that publication.

What I *think* I understand:
Via the memo, Rove was trying to debunk the idea that Cheney sent Wilson to Niger. (?) (by saying it was directed by Wilson's agency wife who works on wmd) (and therefore derail the idea that Cheney knew about the fakery before it was info used in the State of the Union address.) By doing that, he revealed that Wilson's wife (implied Plame) worked for the agency(implied CIA) and specifically on wmd issues (implied covert). This was viewed by Wilson as payback for his public criticism and statement about the fakery that was getting press at the time.

I wonder if Novak has been off the hook because he drew his info from the work of other writers, unpublished stories that were in the works? Who knows?

That actually makes a lot of sense. It's the first time I've heard that theory. It fits all the pieces, and is well within the realm of possibility.

Let me edit this.
Why would Cheney send Wilson to Niger to possibly poke holes in the one piece of evidence that would take us to war?

here's my amateur guess:

Cheney didnt (and wouldnt), and that's what Rove was trying to correct the press about (and zing Wilson at the same time). It was a pitch to maintain that Cheney knew nothing about any suspicion or question about the veracity of this info before using it on the public. A pitch to show that revelations from Wilsons trip didnt reach the powers- blame the CIA disfunction.

Maybe. :)

It's weird that would Rove go that far to "prove" that Cheney didn't authorize the trip, just to zing Wilson and blame the CIA. He could have told Cooper it was someone from the agency, not specifically Wilson's wife...that probably would have been sufficient. How could he not know that what he was doing was a federal offense?

I thought that Wilson reported his findings to the administration BEFORE Dubya's speech. I might have it mixed up.

The one source I know who is intimately familiar with this kind of thing did his work during the early 80s, and has been retired for many years, so current policy might be different. But in those days, he was utterly disassociated with anything "official." Completely off the radar -- he couldn't even get married, or join any kind of organization (civic or otherwise), while he was active. Going to Langley would be tantamount to painting a bullseye in neon orange paint in the middle of his back. And other than the occasional mission, he was private-sector all the way. Wasn't even on the official government timecard until after his covert "retirement," and then they justified his pension by hiring him to teach training classes.

Even now, the only info you will get out of him is that he has experience HALO jumping into jungles, and can open a can of peaches from 1000 yards away with a rifle. I'd be surprised if we know him by the name he was born with.

I'm nervous even writing this...glatt can relate, I'm sure. But my point is this: from my very limited knowledge of such things, someone who is truly operating under deep cover has no ties (other than a handler) to CIA proper. If the woman went to Langley regularly, her mission wasn't likely to be the kind the media are alluding to.

Yup. That's the thing. Wilson did and still, the debunked info was used in the State of the Union speech. How is it that this corrrect info, old news, not reach the top dog as Bush claims? Did the administration knowingly select/adapt intel to provide justification and proof that Saddam had to go, now? This is where Cheney's and other neocons unprecedented presence in CIA operations comes into question. This is a big fall for Tenet. This seems to be about selective adaptation or supression of intelligence. Maybe even (badly) planted information.

And regarding if Plame's covert operations were covert enough...If it damaged or delayed in anyway our national effort to assess the threat of wmds, it strikes me as criminal. It put her out there as a target, and further corupted or threatened all covert contacts/info channels she would have had.

If it is no big deal, then why did Rove say adamantly that he did not reveal Valerie Plame by name? And why has the administration considered her outing a leak? All the hoopla is not just coming from the media.

To fully understand it, you practically have to read the Senate Intelligence Report on the US Intelligence Community's Pre-War Intelligence on Iraq, page 46.

Wilson's report included the fact that "Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had travelled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium."

That section of the report was used to back up the notion "that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -- the infamous "16 words" in the SotU speech.

Wilson also reported he hadn't found that they actually bought it -- as far as he could tell. They were seeking to buy. At least one vendor met with the Iraqis but refused to sell them anything since Iraq was under sanctions.

Whether or not there were any operational ramifications (as if the CIA handles operational issues within earshot of ANYone in the public eye) is an entirely seperate issue from the obvious political brouhaha. This is part of a political game. Rove may or may not have spoken inappropriately, but my (biased) opinion is that it's another swipe at Bush, and nothing more.

Fact A: Someone talked to Rove for some deep background info. Fact B: The left wants Rove's ass in a sling to tarnish Bush. Fact C: Plame has been outed as a CIA operative (though her level of cover is in dispute). Now we see the media reverse-engineering a case against Rove by cobbling together connections from C back to A. I think it'll backfire, but who knows.

Juan Coletakes a shot:

The CIA says she was covert. Any attempts to say that maybe she wasn't covert enough are silly. A Grand Jury was set up to indict the person who outed a covert CIA agent, because a covert CIA agent was outed.

He had 6 days to do that.

And along with previous investigative reports filed by the US ambassador living in Niger, and second report reaching the same conclusion by military personel, Wilson's investigation came to same conclusion. All reports were filed. And the documents that raised questions have been found to be fake.

Rove's only hope is to trash Wilson. But even then, there was a leak.

I think you are confusing 'covert' and 'deep cover'. My knowledge is also limited, but anyone who the CIA creates a cover for, deep or not, is covert. This means anyone who reports to the CIA and does not share that fact with anyone outside the agency.

By outing Ms. Plame, the person who did so has forcibly retired her. Much of her value as a covert source is lost. Assuming it would even be safe for her to travel, many of her sources would probably no longer associate with her for fear of retribution.

One estimate of the value to train and replace an infantry soldier can be as high a $250,000. If Ms. Plame was a WMD expert, the question becomes how much will it cost to find and train a replacement to have the same amount of experience.

Having enough CIA WMD experts is sort of critical right now. We already started one war because of faulty WMD intelligence. Losing a qualified analyst because someone was playing politics and couldn't keep his mouth shut hurts us. The question also becomes did he have clearance to know that she was CIA? If not, who told him?

It's ironic that when it comes to issues the public has a right to know, this is a very closed administration. When it comes to information that legitimately should be kept secret, suddenly the loose lips are flapping.

Poor Scott McClellan pretty much destroyed any shred of credibility he had left with the press on this.


From here

I'm not real sure I even buy that anymore. I think we were headed to kick some Iraqi ass with or without WMDs. The "belief" that they were there was just the final selling point. Kind of like when Lumberjim throws in the premium stereo with CD changer instead of the single disc jobbie.

Yet another, from one of Plame's CIA classmates.

Point taken, as long as she was covert at the time the info came out. Still, for Rove to be criminally liable, he had to know she was undercover and have deliberately outed her with the intent to do harm.

There are still more sides to the story though. Washington is a small place, and the press corps there is incredibly lazy -- one radio guy yesterday likened them to zoo animals waiting to be thrown scraps. The place runs on rumor and off-the-record conversations. One of the current tidbits going around is that Rove found out that Plame was undercover from a reporter, which means that the leak had already occurred. Also, the reporter who is in jail for protecting her source is still in jail, even though Rove has released her from confidentiality. Who is she still protecting, if Rove is the leak?

Rove should be done for high treason, end of story. He outed, for pure revenge politics, a covert CIA operative in the process undermining directly the US's efforts to find who really has WMD. There are no two ways about it.

I hate repeating myself ... Novak broke the story ... WHO TOLD NOVAK??

No, even if she were no longer performing covert actions, the fact that she had ever been covert was still classified. The cover company that she was working for was still a secret, and there were still covert people working for it in the field. Outing Plame destroyed that cover, and put everyone involved in danger, not to mention the money and effort wasted.

That's what the grand jury is all about, and the eventual trial. It's good to see, though, that the tidbits going around are now of the "maybe Rove didn't commit the crime" variety rather than "maybe no crime was committed". Even so, that tidbit jars a bit with Rove's "I didn't mention her by name" defense.

And finally, no matter who the initial leak was, it was a leak designed to punish someone for speaking out against the administration, and Rove discussed classified information with at least one reporter, without official approval to do so. Laws can be tricky things, so he may squeeze by without actually having committed a crime, but he definitely proved himself unworthy of a clearance.

Not necessarily. Like I said, the Washington press corps is privy to all kinds of deep background info -- they're as much a part of the dance as the politicians themselves. It's looking more and more like Rove could've been simply trying to prevent the reporter from running a bad story (bad in the quality-of-source sense). It happens all the time, completely independent of political bias. It's a very inbred system there.

I suppose we'll see.

And from a purely moral standpoint, where's the journalistic responsibility? If [insert source name here] told the reporter the name of an undercover operative, wouldn't the reporter know that publishing that information could be a Very Bad Thing?

This is a very ugly moment in the jihad against Bush. If it works, Rove gets the axe. If it doesn't, the whole smear attempt looks as silly as the "who sucked Clinton's cock" debacle. (not the leak itself, but the angry mob driving Rove out of town).


edit: IMO, the panicked response from the WH wasn't so much evidence of guilt as it was a reflection of the inexperience of the press secretary. They went into X-treme Defense mode before they had all the facts themselves. Gee, wonder why they're so gun shy?

There will be no interruption of KR's role as GWB's chief advisor. He will also remain in his official capacity of Deputy Chief of Staff.

My perspective of reality and what happens in the WH (stays in the WH, I know I know) intersect at only a couple of points. The letter and spirit of the law do not happen to be any of those points, sadly.

Privately, it is likely that KR will be further rewarded for his actions, since they have produced the desired result in the first place (contributing to the discrediting of an opposition voice) and have additionally provided some distraction from other difficulties the administration is facing now: more grief in Iraq; SC nomination; etc.

I've heard something like that before, but not an explanation. How would Plame's CIA employment negatively affect the quality of a story's sources?
They should indeed. And while, not having clearances, they can't be prosecuted for it, any reporter who published it should be ashamed.
Indeed. Scott McClellan is about the most pathetic spokesman I've ever seen. At least Ari Fleischer had some style when he avoided questions.

As I understand it, the story goes like this:

Wilson was sent by the CIA to Niger to investigate the possibility of Iraq seeking yellowcake uranium from that country. He got the assignment because of his wife, Plame. Whether she assigned it directly or pulled strings, I don't know, but the senate intelligence committee report last week speaks of a Plame memo linking her to his assignment to Niger.

Wilson claims to have found no Iraq-Niger link vis-a-vis uranium sales. This has since been proven a lie -- several sources now reveal that some kind of deal was in the works, if never finalized. Wilson also made a name for himself as an anti-Bush partisan in a book and some newspaper stuff that he wrote.

Miller was writing some kind of story (about the Plame leak? about the Wilson report? not sure, haven't looked into that part of it) and Rove apparently said something along the lines of, "I wouldn't run with that story, Wilson's wife is CIA and got him that assignment, and he's got a partisan agenda." Or something like that.

This ball was taken by the left and a break was made for the opposing goal line. Whether or not they score or fall flat on their face is up in the air at this point. The leak had already happened at the time of Rove's conversation, it seems like.

Even granting all that, what does Wilson's wife being CIA and getting him the assignment have to do with anything? What was the point of mentioning it? How does that affect the quality of the report?

I think Rove was implying (maybe he said it directly -- I need to do some more reading on this, if my gall bladder will let me) that Wilson had been sent to Niger by his wife specifically to discredit the WH claim of an Iraq/Niger/uranium connection, and not to do actual fact-finding.

So he was saying that the CIA was actively working against the administration on WMD issues?

I don't think he went that far. I think he was implying that Wilson was a partisan attention whore, and his wife used her position to be an accessory. I'm cutting you off from X-Files reruns for 3 days. :P

edit: and flagellating myself for being a sloppy writer around HM. You guys are really chomping at the bit on this one, aren't you?

She wasn't in a position to send him to Niger. All she could do was recommend him, so someone higher than her in the CIA would have had to sign on.

I'll have to take your word on it.

The main point is, to leak the identity on a CIA agent under cover, especially one without diplomatic immunity, is to place that agent at risk if their identity is leaked while they are outside the US, say in Africa or the Middle East. While Cooper had the class to choose not to publish, Novak did.

Here is one take on this.

Outing a NOC is dangerous for them and the people who help them. There are already 83 stars at the CIA headquarters for fallen agents. Some of them understand the consequences of having a cover revealed. Agents have had their covers revealed before, but this might be the first time in history such a leak came from the White House.

Way to take care of national security, guys. :eyebrow:

As far as I've seen, Wilson has been proven right.

On the Washington Post web site a few days ago, a story ran claiming that Wilson had reported to the CIA that Niger was approached by Iraq about a yellowcake deal. Then, the Post ran a correction, saying that is was Iran, not Iraq. (???)

And...it was reported that Plame did suggest her husband for the trip, based on his friendliness with Niger officials, but the actual decision to send him was made by the CIA Directorate, whoever that may be.

Actually, a (2004?) British report on prewar intelligence indicated that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999 (even Wilson concurs), and found that several intelligence sources indicated the purpose of the trip was to make a uranium deal. The same intelligence also indicated similar deal-making with the republic of Congo and (I think) one other African nation.

A U.S. senate report said that the CIA (who, I thought, were supposed to be against Bush? anyway.) didn't give Wilson's claim much credibility, particularly since their intelligence showed that uranium was the one ingredient Iraq needed to have full nuclear capability.

Wilson defended himself by pointing to a set of forged documents that were either created to "prove" a link between Iraq/Niger, or, specifically created and leaked to Wilson in order to discredit any other intelligence pointing to same link. Of course, the documents' purpose depends on which side of the congressional aisle you're talking to.

The upshot being, Wilson is a proven partisan; that, combined with a good deal of American and European pre-war intelligence (admittedly, much of it circumstantial or based on conversations) that Iraq wanted yellowcake uranium,

[inhale]

undermines his credibility. The left is carrying his water because he's anti-Bush.

I'm confused...did Wilson concur because he found that out on his trip?

Yep, the story's solid, mrnoodle. If you've got these other sources, cite them or drop it.

Wilson's Iraq Assertions Hold Up Under Fire From Rove Backers

Ah, the Butler Report.

http://cellar.org/2005/senintelrpt.jpg

Page 46 of the Senate Intelligence Report on the US Intelligence Community's Pre-War Intelligence on Iraq. My notes in red.

Wilson discounted rumors of an abortive transaction between Niger and Iraq. The documents suggesting the transaction turned out to be forgeries - an early set that the Italians provided summaries of to England and the US, and copies of to the US, and a later, extremely poorly forged set that mrnoodle already mentioned. Wilson's report said that there was no such transaction, but Nigerien (is that really how it's spelled?) officials assumed that an Iraqi delegation four years earlier was hoping to talk about uranium. The consensus in the intelligence community was that the Niger story wasn't strong enough to use, evidenced by the speeches from which it was deliberately excised. And in hindsight, after inspection of the actual nuclear capabilities in Iraq, that consensus turned out to have been correct.

In any case, all this is really irrelevant to the Plame issue. It's interesting back story and a fun debate, but it has no bearing on the case. No matter how politically biased Wilson was, no matter how involved Plame was in getting him sent, no matter how competently he handled the mission, the proper way to handle it is not to break the cover of a CIA agent to a journalist.

The forged documents appeared in October 2002. Wilson's trip happened in February/March 2002.

There were multiple sets of forged documents.