OK open thoughts: society works best when it encourages people to have self-motivation and self-discipline. The ideal society is one where people value work and self-governance to the point where there is no need for much government involvement.

We know from seeing the actual results of public HOUSING that a lack of self-interest created bad citizens and shitty living conditions. One might say that public FOOD could have a similar result and could be disastrous.

But public EDUCATION hasn't worked that way; nobody sees it as a free ride of any kind. So perhaps there's some kind of essential difference.

You still have to work (study) to get an education. Even if it is free. In fact, in college my parents and I paid for my education and I didn't work nearly as hard as I did for the free education I got in high school.

It can be done... but it takes some forethought, as discussed in the link
Blue Oregon
.

stream of consciousness posting follows. buckle up.

I completely agree with your opening statement UT. That's the best society. In your second paragraph I get tangled up trying to discern cause and effect. I don't think it's as simple as you've described, and I don't think it is just one linear arc, bad citizens because xyz, including public housing. I also completely agree with your closing sentence that there is some kind of essential difference.

...sneaking up on the thought so it doesn't escape....

I think it is imperative to consider, to invoke a person's self interest, and keeping in mind that most folks want to do the minimum needed to achieve their desires. The desires that really count are the ones that are internal. Things that are important to **ME**. Me. (well, you too, you get my point). It's possible to implant those desires. I was utterly indoctrinated when it came to college. College was, you know, like 13th grade. It was gonna happen, period. And it did. I have my parents to thank for that and I'm indoctrinating my kids that way too. Two down, one to go. Anyhow, the individual's self interest must be engaged.

oh oh as for motivations, I keep in mind that there are positive motivations I want to move toward and negative motivations I want to move away from. Also, there are motivations that require a certain chain of events. Like the chimp in the room with boxes and bananas hanging from the ceiling. ChimpV couldn't care less about boxes, but loves yummy bananas. So, now I'm interested in boxes as far as they can help me get to my goal, bananas. School was like that. School, meh. Money from job to get yummy fun stuff, yeah! Job requires education, so, ok, school, what[i]evar]/i].

I don't know how to make a more self-motivated, self-disciplined society. I agree more is better, but hells bells, lots of times, I can't even be more self-motivated and self-disciplined MY OWN DAMN SELF. I can barely get ME to work better on a consistent basis, I don't know how to make it happen for society at large.

BUT. I think at least one of the methods described earlier applies: find out something that doesn't work and try to eliminate that. Doing too much for a person DOES diminish their incentive to do for themselves. No question. I know this is true from my own life, from my life as a growing child, and my life as a parent. You betcha. Like before, there isn't a mechanical formula for the right answer to do I help or do I stand by (or better: How can I best help, even if it means doing nothing?).

Another thing that is important is knowledge. Knowledge starts with information. I can't know the whole world from my own empirical experience, I have to read, and listen and observe to learn at a pace that allows me to keep up like I want to keep up. I have a hungry mind. Back to society.... Access to information to make knowledge possible is crucial. PSAs to Don't be a Fool, Stay in School or This is Your Brain on Drugs or whatever.... I think people need facts to make informed decisions about what is needed (or even possible) when it comes to reaching their goals. Like home ownership instead of public housing, etc.

Ok, recapping. Self interest (both positive and negative). Information and knowledge. Avoiding "giving" too much; hunger (that's not phrased very well). A sense of what is possible; opportunity. What else nurtures a self motivated and self disciplined citizenry?

I blabbed about self interest up there... another observation on self interest.

I beat my breast and tear my hair reading about people who (in my opinion) vote against their self interest. It boggles my small smooth brain why o why they would ever do that (those dumbasses). I think a couple things are involved.

1 -- motivations and interests are often mixed and conflicted. Rarely are they crystalline pure. Ok.

2 -- Misinformation (cue Snidley Whiplash image/laugh here) has been around forever, but it is the golden fucking age of misinformation. It's easy to tell lies effectively, loudly, repeatedly, ... ugh. It makes me sick. Anyhow... I think lots of times people are misled into acting against their self interest.

3 -- Short term self interest can be opposed to long term self interest. Likewise, individual self interest can be opposed to group self interest. Conflict ensues.

Quite true
Maybe corporate Boards of Directors have not yet read #3

And long term interests only affect future PH45, not current PH45. Screw future PH45...

Absolutly, we've seen it here in PA. Children too. :mad2:

Oh yes.

that is completely fucked up.

PUBLIC Justice, PUBLIC Law Enforcement, PUBLIC Incarceration. Not private. This is not a space where the free market should have any business.

Gov figures the Corps can do it cheaper or the time required to create another bloated inefficient public bureaucracy would not be worth the time and effort.

Bloodyhell V, that was excellent. You have a real flair for writing.

Thank you Dana. Tha's just my thinking up thar, I can actually write more better, if I slow down some. But my thoughts often escape when I do that. I can't write as fast (or as well) as I think. So I was shooting for more of my thoughts at the expense of writing quality. Thank you for the nice compliment. There is lots more here, not just in my head, but in all our heads. I want to learn all of it.

Please listen to this interview with Jeffery Sachs, economist.

http://www.kuow.washington.edu/program.php?id=24764

excerpts from a review of his new book The Price of Civilization from The Financial Times:

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I only just now read this post, and I agree with your first paragraph.

However, I think you are off base in the second. I have never seen the housing projects back East, but from other people's descriptions, they sound like real hell holes that should just be torn down.

The story is quite different in rural areas like the one I live in. While we have apartment complexes that are given over to low income families, they are all neat and well taken care of. The local Housing Authority requires that at least one adult in each family have a job in order to qualify for assisted housing. Most folks are deeply grateful to be awarded a spot in such complexes which are not very big. Most have around 20 apartments or so. I think one may have 30.

We also have special housing units for Seniors and the disabled only. Again, these places are well kept and the people who live in them feel very lucky that they qualified for an apartment. The availability of such housing assistance makes the difference between being homeless or not for many people.

Housing assistance allows people here to keep their dignity and self respect. It gives them the chance to get job and voc rehab training, so that they may better their lot and eventually some will no longer need to live in public housing. Meanwhile, their children have a decent place to live and get to attend the same schools as their more affluent peers.

I don't know what the answer is in big cities. I think the problem is racial in part with an African American cliental whose families have lived in the projects for generations and can't envision any other sort of life. The schools in the neighborhoods where the projects are located tend to be substandard and do little to prepare a child for high school and college or even a vo-tech program. From what I read, drugs and violence are rampant. Public Housing in the big cities sounds like a complete failure.

Even so, don't be so quick to make such a harsh judgement of the housing assistance program. It works well in towns like mine and there are enough creative, caring people around who could come up with some ideas to improve urban housing if only HUD weren't so moribund with regulations and a steadily declining budget.

There are many reasons why a person may benefit from housing assistance. Please don't consign them all to the streets because of the gang banger crowd.

Measured by the ratio of important truths expressed to words used, this may be the best paragraph ever. The first sentence shows what is wrong with contemporary capitalism, and the second shows this, and also what is wrong with libertarianism.

[Applause]