Transgender young people detransitioning
 

Interesting report on Sky News.



Complex issue, but full on transitioning as a youngster always struck me as a potential risk, no matter how sure the child is. It is worrying that some therapists aren't making links between multiple psychological issues (like the kid with both anorexia and gender dysphoria). It may well be that there are young people for whom such a drastic step is the best way forward, but there are a lot of things to consider and rule out first.

I don't know nearly enough about the science to know whether trans-identities are a sign of a biological mismatch of sex and gender, or a sign of dysfunction, or both are possible individual to individual.

Unfortunately it is a topic that is so fraught and politicized that kids who find themselves regretting their decision are made to feel like traitors to the cause - meanwhile both sides of the political extreme are ready to jump on any discussion.

I dunno, I haven't lived it. But it seems an awfully drastic medical intervention at an age when the basics of identity are still forming.

Ugh. This is all going to get worse. Every awkward gay teenager gets to consider whether maybe they can be "fixed" by transitioning.

And because it's a divisive issue, it can't be discussed correctly...

This idea is part of a rift that's starting between the LGB and the T. LGB won't stand for the idea that they need fixing, cos they don't.

It's a tough topic. I know of one trans woman who never regretted committing to her identity, but did regret the surgery (admittedly, she had it done a long time ago when the process wasn't as refined, and that may have contributed to her dissatisfaction.) And I personally know one twenty-something with a ton of other mental health issues who very clearly chose to transition only as a last-ditch effort to prove (to themselves, as well as everyone else) that their consistent failure in life was once again everyone else's fault, and not a direct result of their own behavior.

I assume the majority don't regret it. But I admit I've never asked because it seems horrendously rude, and damaging to the already fragile recognition they've had to fight for.

I think the concept (meme even) of 'identifying' as this or that is at the root of this kind of thing. It's being used more and more, it's become part of the lexicon. Used by people that want to be accepted by this group or that. Looking for some acceptance and connection to anchor them. Some future change that will save them. But then, once they go through it, the feeling of disconnectedness comes back. Maybe if they change back.... and round and round.

If you consider the word... Identify. you're trying to exert influence on your Id. You can't do that and be honest with yourself. Your ego is declaring it's dominance over your being. The thoughts should serve the being instead. When there is a conflict between the two, it would be better to recognize the conflict and try to resolve it instead of smashing away at the square peg. If you smash hard enough, you will eventually get it into the round hole, but there will be damage, and as expected, the problem is not resolved. They still feel disconnected.

smashing away at the square peg
 

better than loppin' it off

Coincidentally, this popped up on my Youtube recommended list - pretty random, as I haven't been watching any videos about this. ;P

It's a woman's prerogative to change her mind; so, a transwoman who wants to go back to being a man is probably safe. A transman who wants to go back to being a woman; however, might be sued under common law … might at least have to take a pay cut.

:runaway:

heheh I see what you did there

Another video has been around since Feb on the same topic. A group of four girls, three of whom were on testosterone for some time, who later decided it was a mistake. Sad thing is that you can, to varying degrees, see that those three had been on testosterone.

So, now I'm getting a lot of videos on this topic pop up in my youtube feed.

I found this one very interesting:

It's better to be an ugly guy than an ugly chick.

Yup.

Ugly chicks get laid, though.

A lot more than ugly guys.

Good point. :yesnod:

What the almighty fuck?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCec...sXbAra7Sl4mOPw


The Queer Kids' Stuff channel - aimed at pre-school - kindergarten age kids.


One of the playlists is called 'All about ACTIVISM!' and includes titles like,

The main series has topics like:

and the old classic:

One of the ideas they seem to be pushing is that everybody is really queer in some way.

You know - when I was in secondary school there was a law passed that made it illegal for teachers to discuss homosexuality with children, even if said child had come to them to seek advice because they thought they might be gay - books were purged from school libraries if they had the slightest hint of the Gay

And one of the biggest arguments for this was that homosexuality was something children learned and by learning about it and discussing it it would be normalised and that schools discussing the subject in any way could effectively groom, kids into gayness.

The LGBT community worked fucking hard to fight that notion and present the counter evidence that they were not a threat to the nation's youth -

I would be so depressed if I was part of my cohort's LGBT community - youtiber LGBT activists seem to be hell bent on being the thing that people fear, instead of actually showing that the various different ways in which humans experience and express gender identity and sexual orientation have validity and are normal for a percentage of the population at any given time.

This is not teaching children to be accepting of difference and not to feel ashamed or like they have to hide away if they don't naturally conform to the societal norm - it is pure political indoctrination. It is fucking vile.

Kids that young don't need to know this stuff. Teach them to accept difference in general terms. Nothing wrong with a kids tv show having a character who adults would characterise as transgender - but the kids dont need that word - they just need to know that if someone they think looks like a boy has decided he wants to wear a skirt and play with the girls - it's ok. People are different and that's ok.

They don't need a detailed breakdown of all the various ways people experience gender and sexual identities - they're children - let em get to grips with using pencils and not sticking lego up their noses before we hit them with this shit.

And they certainly don;t need to learn about fucking feminism and political activism - seriously what the almighty fuck?

The world's gone mad. This is insanity.

:facepalm:
No wonder people a desperately hoping for the Rapture or Zombie apocalypse.

We are in the End Times.

It seems to me that elective surgery or body modification should be something an adult (18+) makes.

Particularly troubling is the use of hormones on adolescents. Adolescents already have enough of that going on, and I am reasonably sure that we don't know all the effects this would have on brain development, etc.

:lol2:

If that were my post...you'd be all up in m'grill telling me how wrong I was.

And prolly make me change my mind.;)

:p:

As I understand it, for the most part, they are only doing hormone-blocking on adolescents. Which has its own set of side effects, but the intent is to put off the hormones until they're old enough to make the decision.

How can they make the right decision until nature has taken its course, until they've experienced the hormone's effects? :confused:

That's a decision in itself, and also can't be undone if it was the wrong one.

I am unsure there is a functional difference. You're still messing around with your brain before it's done developing.

There's a definite functional difference, because the end result of each path is very different. You could say that there's no difference at some level of abstraction, but at the functional level it's very different.

I'm not a doctor, so I can't argue with that.

I am, however, a process geek, and if a change to a process leads to damage, then the change (whether it is omission or commission) was undesirable.

If the process may be irreversibly going in the wrong direction, then the decision has to be made whether to risk some damage in the short term to get the information needed to correctly guide the process later.

There is definitely a difference between blocking hormones and taking hormones. One prevents puberty by blocking testosterone or estrogen - the other floods the system with testosterone or estrogen. Totally different things with totally different effects.

One major issue with giving hormone blockers prior to puberty is that it can actually lead to a worse transition outcome for those kids that do go through with transitioning. E.g: for a male to female transition, if the person never developed an adult size penis, they will only be able to have a very shallow vagina.

Seemingly, just from the vids I've seen, the best outcomes seem to be when someone transitions post puberty but while still young - so between the ages of 17 and 25.

As hard as it is for some youngsters whose gender dysphoria is extreme, probably their best chance of a reasonably happy outcome is therapy and support until they are a little more developed, and a lot of understanding from all around them that puberty is going to outright suck more for them than for the average youngster and maybe, with that additional time, explore other possible issues such as body dysmorphia which can easily be misread as gender dysphoria

The biggest problem though, as I see it, is the absolute dearth of research into the long term effects of such treatment. As Luce says, we just do not know enough about what this will do to these kids - what the implications might be when they get to their 30s and 40s and onwards.

The whole thing has become way too politicised - the whole non-binary thing in particular. The blurring of the categories of male and female is all very well at a behavioral or self-identity level - but from a medical perspective it has made it almost impossible for reasonable discourse. When physicians and therapists are being shouted down for saying that gender dysphoria is a disorder - it is ridiculous. How are they supposed to help trans people if they are no longer able to name the problem?

Meanwhile activists like the Queer Kids Stuff channel are promoting this woolly notion that it's all on a spectrum and we're all really non-binary - that there isn't really a binary at all - and quelle surprise suddenly every kid who doesn't completely conform to gender expectations is identifying as 'trans' and 'non-binary'


Thank god this wasn't a thing when I was a kid. I was a tomboy - if I'd been on social media when I was 12 I could easily have found myself going down the rabbithole.

I'm all for broadening what we mean by masculine and feminine so that people are not 'trapped' by gender expectations, and I have long been of the opinion that the supposedly innate differences between male and female brains have generally been overplayed - there are differences, but in terms of how that plays out in cognitive function has been been poorly understood and most of the research suggests that the socially constructed elements of gender are very important due to the primary characteristic of the brain being its elasticity - but dispensing with all distinction makes no sense whatsoever. Medically, psychologically and socially dangerous.

So that's what they did to me. :eek:

People don't seem to understand the flowchart on this.

Pathway #1 is that a person undergoes a normal puberty, turns 18, and then seeks medical intervention to attempt to reverse the hormonal effects, insomuch as this is possible. This isn't effective because some of the physiological effects of puberty are irreversible.

Pathway #2 is that the hormonal effects of puberty are delayed. This is physiologically no different than Olympic gymnasts having a delayed puberty. In this case, there are no physiological changes, and no irreversible changes of any kind. The person turns 18 and can seek medical intervention, without the added complication of attempting to reverse physiological changes that have already taken place.

...

There are no "transitioning" children-- this doesn't exist.

Interesting. Honest question: Do we know there are no side effects of delaying puberty?

And gymnasts really do that?

The purpose of waiting till they're 18 is they are a legal adult and can call the shots(no pun).
But if they have hormones blocked along the way are they actually an adult? Or just legal.
Isn't blocking hormones before 18 actually making a choice but not taking the responsibility for it?

Maybe, due to low body weight and intense, frequent exercise, but science says it also selects for short leg length and so may just be a product of selection.

Depends on what we consider children. Girls as young as 13 can have radical mastectomies and hysterectomies with parental consent in some states in the US.

Hormone therapy can also start very young, I believe.

I don't know enough about it - but I do think there are risks of children being misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria and ending up on a railroad to transition.

On the other hand children who genuinely have gender dysmorphia absolutely need proper help and support with a view to transitioning.

There are side effects, but they need to be weighed against the effects of the other choices. The medication is fairly safe, and has been in use to prevent early puberty for quite a while, but using it for this purpose is recent.

Gymnasts (mostly; I imagine every type of doping has been done at some point) don't take drugs to delay puberty, but their intense food and exercise regimen delays it*,
Yes it's a choice, but how is it not taking responsibility?

Doing nothing is also a choice, but I would think that people would be far more likely to try to avoid responsibility for something by claiming that they just let nature take its course than would people who went on a specific medical regimen.

This video in particular was worrying:

i have very mixed feelings about the whole thing. I particularly worry that kids who aren't actually transgender will end up on a path to transition - meanwhile, youngsters who need to transition may not get the level of support they need.

If it was just a medical thing we wouldn't be having this conversation - the political aspect of it is muddying the waters in really unhelpful ways.

Withe regards to puberty blockers, I think there is a difference between delaying natural puberty (e.g to prevent early puberty as mentioned above) and preventing natural puberty altogether which is, as I understand it, what happens for some of these youngster - if they go from hormone blockers to hormone therapy, never go through the puberty their body would naturally go through as their biological sex, and then bringing about a kind of pseudo puberty with the hormones of the gender they are transitioning to.

Whether that can bring about a good outcome? I don;t know. Probably for some it will - but we do not fully understand the long term effects - it's a huge experiment.

Juveniles aren't giving hormone blockers to themselves, parents, Doctors, some adult is calling the shots for the kid. In effect they're making the decision on a path but leaving it to the 18 year old to make the legal choice that others already laid out for them.
Yes, they can decide against that path but how many will after years of being prepped and brainwashed that it's the right path.

They make the choice what to do or not to do, whichever choice they make. And "not to do" is the choice that I would see as having the most hazard of not taking responsibility. And it's also the choice that is by far most likely to be "prepped and brainwashed" in favor of.

No. This is wrong. This is factually wrong. The kid is in intense counseling to deal with the physiological impacts of not conforming to society's expectations. It is 100% based on the kid and 0% based on what the parent wants.

Does the doctor physically write the prescription and physically hold the needle? Does the parent care about their kid, and not want them to commit suicide? Of course, but this is not "calling the shots" by any stretch of the imagination.

Unfortunately, the only way we get to study the long-term effects (of anything) is for folks to do it, and then study them. The "we have no data so we can't do it until we have data" argument is a tautology in any field.

We could try it on rats for a while.

Are you telling me the parents and counselor don't have any influences of the kids decision? I can't buy that at all.
If you are right and the have no influence then the kid is making a choice before it's legal for him/her to do so.

I'm telling you "parents, Doctors, some adult is calling the shots for the kid" is wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to move the goalpost to "have any influence" that's a longer, more nuanced discussion and I didn't engage you on that.

This conversation is around gender right now but with the bio-tech coming down the road it's going to get even more interesting. I self-identify as a corvid but am late to the transitioning game. (not making light of the current situation, just wondering how things will sort)

No ethical doctor is going to act on the kids say so without the parent (or court/authority) ordering it.

Or on the parent's say-so against the kid's wishes (except to do nothing).

When I was 16 I knew every goddamn thing, spent the rest of my life proving I had forgotten it. :o

i got a divided mind on this stuff...
 

on one hand: i don't give a flip what people do to themselves (no matter how stupid or delusional) as long as i'm not payin' for it or are bein' forced to participate

on the other: kids are dumb, wild animals that need harnessing...we don't let 'em jump off the roof but we will let 'em hormonally, surgically mutilate themselves?

it's a barrel of rattlesnakes: there's no easy way to get to bottom of it

NO goddamnit we DO NOT allow kids to do that.
NOBODY is doing that and NOBODY is saying we should.

So: no minors are allowed to take any kind of hormone or hormone-alterin' treatments to affect gender appearance, and no minors are undergoin' any kind of sex/gender alterin' surgeries, yeah?

Well then: what's the big whoop?

If minors can't monkey 'round with the structure of their bodies in any real way, then all they can do is play dress up, yeah?

Again: what's the big whoop?

There's no big whoop, it's all much ado about nothing.

So: this thread is just a waste of time, yeah?

For balance, or whatever, here is an account of a woman transgendered long term. More comfortable in her own skin, absolutely no regrets whatsoever. Faces the dumb rejection of (some) family and others,

Also of note, suicide statistics. These would belong in Happy Monkey's "do nothing" category. Unless there is an equally compelling outcome on the other side of the equation, I'm really at a loss to see an opposing argument.

Unless, *checks notes* ahh yes, trans people "make me feel icky"

Trans people don't make me feel icky - I was actively supportive of a small group of trans people who were campaigning in my borough for better access to health services and a less obstacle laden path to transition for those that need it, back when I was a local councillor.

I do have concerns about children going through this stuff - and so, seemingly do quite a few trans people, going off some of the youtube commentators.

Having those concerns does not equate to being anti-trans. But that is where the argument always ends up: if you question the current approach in any way you are denounced as anti-trans - even if, like a few commentators i have seen, you are yourself transgender.

This, right here, is why the issue is of concern - because it is far too politicised.

There's a really nasty anti-LGBT and in particular anti-trans streak in some of the discourse especially coming from the right - and that needs watching, but lumping any questioning into that makes the entire topic toxic

This is the problem I have. My youngest kid (24 years old) is transgendered and has been since age 16. He has no intent of physically transitioning to a male body, mostly due to medical issues.

So believe me when I say I have no beef with transgender people, even if I still screw up the old pronouns now and again.

But my limit is right about here, with medical procedures being done on children. I can see both ends of the argument, but I don't know enough about the medical risks to be okay with a minor transitioning.

There. Are. No. Medical. Procedures. Done. On. Children.

Then that simplifies things greatly, and there is no issue at all.

This now falls into the realm of "don't tell people what to do."