Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son
 

I don't know if I've ever been so horrified by what happened in an area so close to home. I had to post this.


I'd like to know your thoughts on trying these "boys" as adults versus juveniles.

Also, I don't know where to even begin with the psychological issues the victims will have to contend with for the rest of their lives...


Police arrest 3rd teen in rape


After the attack, the mother and son walked several miles to the closest hospital for help. Not a single neighbor, some of whom HAD to have heard the attack through the paper-thin walls of the Section 8 housing, intervened or contacted authorities to stop it. All suspects are believed to be teenagers; the first one arrested was in middle school.

Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.

this truly is a heinous crime - i don't know what your laws are concerning juveniles - my opinion would be to hold them in a facility for their age and when they become "adult" age - prosecute them as such. i know some people like to claim "products of their surroundings", but they still had a choice to make. it was the wrong choice.

i personally think they should lock all the guys who did it away until the 12yr old son turns 18, then they should let him execute each and every one of them.

Personally, I don't think anybody should be tried as an adult for a crime they committed whilst still juvenile.

How about this, which I forgot to include in the original post:

What about the neighbors who heard what was going on and failed to contact authorities? I can understand not wanting to physically intervene for of one's own personal safety, but anyone can call the authorities anonymously. Considering this is a crime-ridden area, and that the authorities were called to that particular area twice daily on average, then it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary to have a police presence show up.

i understand that thought - what really gets me though is this was an adult crime - this is not something that probation is going to cure and not all prisons are a cure either, but for extreme crimes sometimes extreme punishments are needed.

There's a whole hell of a lot more going on than a little old criminal behavior. They didn't steal penny candy. Their age became irrelevant after committing such atrocities. It's not like: well, at 18 they magically would have "known better" but since they were only kids they didn't know the magnitude of the situation.

Try them as you would try an 18 year old who committed such crimes.

It's a serious crime for sure, but if you are going to have a distinction in the law between kids and adults, you should always apply that distinction, regardless of the crime. If you don't like it, then get rid of the distinction in the first place.

If there is a legitimate reason for the distinction, that reason doesn't go away just because the crime is a more serious one.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more of these boys is still too dangerous to be allowed out into society when they are in their forties. I don't actually think extreme punishments help the situation at all. Most important issue for me, is removing dangerous people from mainstream society and keeping them incarcerated until they have been reformed enough to pose no threat.


It's not about them 'knowing better' or 'not knowing better'. It's about their understanding of the magnitude of their actions. It's about their understanding of the magnitude of the consequences of those actions. It's about the level of their ability to empathise with other human beings, which is undergoing a great deal of its development during those teenage years.

It's entirely possible that they could have got to eighteen and committed this crime, in which case they should be tried as an adult, because society can reasonably expect them to have fully developed the areas of the brain dealing with empathy and self restraint/censorship, by that age. Society can reasonably expect of them a level of understanding of the consequences of their actions appropriate for an adult.

They no doubt understand that what they did was wrong. They may well have some understanding of the consequences of their actions; but it is an understanding appropriate to the brain development of a teenager and that is different to the understanding which an adult has. That doesn't mean they should 'get away with it'. It does, in my view, mean that they should be treated as juveniles within that process and their punishment and/or rehabilitation should take that into account.

Which they did. Sorry, I don't buy that they just weren't "developed" enough to understand. 15, 18, 21. I didn't draw the arbitrary lines in the sand, but I sure know when those lines don't matter.


Geez peeps, they made the mom and son have sex! But I guess they didn't understand. Did their parents not have the Howard Cunningham sex talk with them?

Nice kid, just misguided.

more doom and gloom

Perhaps they should have baked the kid.:right:

This thread seems really more to belong in Current Events than Home Base.

Yeah, Florida. What in the hell is wrong with the people in Florida?!? I didn't used to use generalized negative statements like that...but....I used to edit appeals cases for a publishing company, and I got a very good look at what the people of that great state do. I spent 4 months editing Florida, (and didn't put a dent in it) that's 10 volumes and a high production rate. By the time I was done I decided that Florida needs to just fall off the map. (I'm about to start cussing I think) This is actually average activity for the people in that fabulous state.....Numbers and numbers of rape/murders etc. etc. (you don't even want to know the horrific details).... it should be considered a national crisis. Sometimes I would cry before I left the company parking lot. The judges opinions should have started looking more like evacuation plans. Worse has definitely happened there (a whole lot) and I think if someone actually called a spade a spade, the people of Florida would go on lock down and everyone would be separated from each other just for the general health and well being of the people of the United States. *knee jerk* *twitch* Smurf- read some Florida citators and it will alleviate your shock. Florida....get out of Florida.

The crimes committed are horrifying, of course. But what separates the lawless from the law-abiding is simply... the law. There is a line drawn in the sand regarding the difference between juveniles and adults, and I do believe that in order to keep the system working then you have to adhere to it.

Of course, they don't believe that in Iran:
I found that while looking for something else - I'm not suggesting that American justice compares to Iranian, it just interested me.

I think you hit the nail on the head with removing dangerous people from mainstream society. I don't believe our prison system is reformatory in any way, shape or form. However, some people just don't belong in society. Britain had the right idea - throw all the criminals that can't function in society on an island somewhere far, far away. [Disclaimer: I love Australia, I don't think Aussies are criminals, and if I could vacation anywhere in the world, Australia is at the tops of my list.]


They were certainly "developed" enough to
(a) bring and wear condoms during the attack
(b) develop a plan of attack, which included 10 assailants
(c) bring and/or find guns
(d) use household chemicals to pour all over the bodies of the victims to erase DNA and other evidence
(e) and for God's sake, THEY MADE THE VICTIMS PARTAKE IN INCESTUAL ACTS AT GUNPOINT. Jesus fucking Christ!


My problem with drawing a line in the sand is that not every rule applies to every person. Our government and court system, lacking though it may be, was developed to address these kinds of issues. As an example, I know 2 brothers. 1 was mature enough to drive a vehicle at age 14. His brother is 17, and I don't think I'd trust that boy to help my 8 year old cross the street.

Maturity involves not just age, but other factors, like emotional/social/physical development, certainly socioeconomic factors play a part, and knowing the difference between right and wrong. At age 14, you know what rape and assault are, and you know they're wrong. Some of these kids have already been determined to have criminal records - and I will go out on a low and long limb here and say I will guarantee that most of these boys have criminal records already.

As far as I'm concerned - and as far as the court systems are also concerned apparently - these kids are perverts, too. Watching a young boy perform a sex act... who gets off (sexually or otherwise) on that kind of thing??? And with his mother??? I'll tell you who - the kind of people who are fucked in the head and don't belong in society where they can do this sort of thing.

yeah, I'm in the legal field... I see a lot... will still always be shocking to me, thought, that people can do such horrible things.

I was born and raised here, and I'm not like that, the people I know aren't like that. This is why I refuse to live in West Palm, and refuse to go there. I travel to Orlando for things I can get in West Palm just because it's West Palm - I'm beginning to think it's worse than Miami.

What do any of those have to do with "developed"?

They had knowledge to know that what they were doing was wrong and illegal, or they wouldn't have tried to cover it up. If I committed a crime, I wouldn't know that ammonia would erase fingerprints and DNA evidence or whatever. That's because even though I'm twice the age of these little bastards, I'm less criminally "developed" than them.

Adulthood is more than attempting to avoid punishment. A five year old will try to avoid punishment. I still don't know whether ammonia will erase fingerprints or DNA (the article says "in an attempt to"), but it could probably be discovered pretty easily from Google or an episode of CSI.

One of the major problems with WP is that it is so transient. It causes deep-seated and multi-leveled Issues with that area.
It is a HUGE strain on the infrastructure, leaving those that live there to live on the scraps, existing with crime, within a maze of walls, surrounded by the uber-rich who don't really interact with the actual community. They have a secluded community, within the community, with no trickle-down effect. Hell, most of them are only there a few weeks out of the year, so they have no residency issues, taxes, etc, that they need contribute other than property tax. Which goes into one of the most corrupt systems that one can imagine.
It reminds me a lot of Apartheid S Africa.

I read this the other day. I found this particularly disturbing:

"So a lady was raped. Big deal," resident Paticiea Matlock said with disgust. "There's too much other crime happening here."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ang-rape_N.htm

God, that is so disturbing. Those kids are going to get whats coming to them. I want to know the intentions of this is. I'm guessing there was one or two ring leaders and all the rest followed but what the fuck is going on in those kid's minds?

I think this quote gives the most insight on the situation.

I agree with the idea that juveniles should be tried and sentenced as such, distinct from adults. But in my mind, there comes a point where the crime committed far overshadows the age of the offender. Like this case for example. Juveniles that with intent commit life threatening crimes, esp. of a sexual nature, should be tried as adult without hesitation. These crimes are far more serious than simple stealing, etc.
In all of my education classes (I'm pursuing a degree in special education/early childhood for those who don't know, which is probably close to everyone haha), something that is stressed throughout every class is that age does not matter. Every child grows and develops personally and socially at different rates and at different stages. It is not a simple ladder. Using age to discriminate between juveniles and adults though convenient, shows its profound weakness and ineffectiveness in times like this. This runs into my unpopular opinion that our country needs to refocus on our public education system first and foremost and incorporate it, via various tests and standards that have to be met, into the two big stages of responsibility dictated by the government: turning 16 and being able to drive, and turning 18 and being called an "adult" and everything that comes with that age.
"And now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast"

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Off with their heads and stick them on tall poles for all to see. Boo to you if you don't like it. They should never be allowed to victimize someone else.

Then we become what they are.
No difference.

That logic really only works with murderers, rkz. Last I checked, even the harshest criminal sentences don't amount to gang-raping them, pouring ammonia in their eyes, or forcing them to receive a blowjob from their mothers.

I think that it's pretty hard to force yourself on people if you don't have arms anymore, and if somehow that doesn't work you can just keep taking random limbs that have been identified in other crimes..............I'm willing to start a rehabilitation center if anyone would like to invest. Shoot, I'd be willing to go non-profit for that.......Now RK do you think that makes me a mother rapsit?
:)

I'm betting they have character disorders, which are different from mental disorders. But since they have character disorders they are not mental cases and therefore possess normal human characteristics with just some major concerning flaws in their personalities.

A perfect example of underage sexual predators, except these boys are just that, boys.

No, they are much, much more than "just boys" They are scum, degenerates, rapists, sadists, torturers, thieves, lowlife mother fuckers that should never see the light of day again.

Character Disorders? What is that? I've never seen that in a diagnostics manual........maybe you have a newer version.:rolleyes:
Maybe you are referring to "personility disorders". Which is also a mental disorder. Maybe you are referring to organic vs. non- organic?

In keeping with your verbiage anyway....let's give you an example as to why your logic doesn't work:

1. I have a flaw in my personality because I procrastinate heavily. (true)
2. I have a flaw in my personality because I procrastinate heavily and gun rape someone in front of their son.
(false)

I have been trying to sort through my thoughts and feelings on this since yesterday morning. The extremity of this attack arouses terrible disgust and anger in me; my gut reaction is along the lines of "hang 'em." However, I can't allow wild emotion to dictate my response. As Dana, glatt, and SG said, the law is clear and I believe it must be followed. We have to protect society from vicious brutes, yet we must take care to remember the difference between justice and vegeance while doing so.

I doubt rk meant it quite so literally as that. My blood boils and my skin crawls as I think about what these teens did. Their acts are unconscionable. However, I know that were I to employ extreme and violent means in dealing with them, I would become the very thing I hate. Lock them away to prevent a repeat attack? Yes. Kill or dismember them? I could not, in good conscience, act so similarly to how they have.

Exactly.
Employ the tactics of what you hate, become that thing, precisely that thing with NO difference.

I believe the boys who did this are a product of their environment and yes it is a shame.
But if a pitbull is raised to be vicious and it attacks someone, you don't just say "well he was a product of his evironment and maybe we can show him the error of his ways. Once an animal has committed an act this horrible, you put it down becuase it will do it again if it gets the chance.

And hopefully we can try to make places like that better so this won't happen again.

Yeah, you can lock them up, let them sit around and glorify their actions with their new friends, and let them get out on good behavior after a couple of years........ I wonder what comes next? Maybe by then they will have matured enough to cover up their crimes more effectively and not get caught. Still up against the same little monsters...except (oh joy) a little older, stronger, and clever.

It's worse than murder, those people have to live with what happened. Those little demons made sure of that didn't they? Why didn't they kill them both?
Because they knew it would be too horrible for anyone to live with. :(
So of course, that's what they did.:mad:
What makes you think that woman and her son don't deserve revenge? I think they do.
Oh, but we aren't speaking literally and we are too "civilized" to know our a** from our elbow.
I think your initial reaction was the honest one until you intellectualized it to make your self feel better.

Google "character disorder", I learned it in college pyschology class, from a documentary on sex offenders who are incarcerated but not as harshly as other criminals and receive outside help to identify their character disorder.
I don't know if it's right, I just thought MAYBE that could be a possibility, so get off me man. And yes it is different from personality disorder, I can't remember how but it is.

I never pardoned the wrongdoings of the boys, but I was suggesting that MAYBE it could be because of character disorder. But maybe not, I'm not a psychologist, but hey, neither are you.

What possible difference does it make what kind of disorder the monsters have. Are you going to worry about what kind of disorder Godzilla might have while he eats the god damn city?

Indeed, we need to clean up many such situations. In this, I agree with Bullitt; the U.S. has to improve the public education system as one means toward the goal.

I'm afraid it just isn't that simple, at least not for me. In fact, I have a very small insight into some of the horror of that family. My marriage fell apart a few years ago largely because of emotional problems my wife has. The woman that I still love (despite lousy things that happened between us) was molested by her own uncle when she was six years old. Needless to say, this affected her deeply and scarred her for life. When I first heard about this, my stomach almost emptied itself and I thought I would kill her uncle if I ever met him. She somehow has found enough of a way to deal with it to at least keep herself from violence and convince me to do likewise. This is definitley not the same thing as being that woman or her child, yet I do know the feeling of rage and dealing with it.

I previously said I favor locking up the attackers. Most likely this should be for life, without chance of parole. I still can't agree with more violence, however. It has to stop somewhere.

Don't blame this shit on the schools. The schools tried, but he dropped out. This is clearly the fault of the parents/families, nobody else.


OK, don't fry the little fuckers, just do to them what they did to this family, for the rest of their lives.

There's no violence in prison? We'll just lock them away from the rest of us and pat ourselves on the back for being civilized then?

Not the same thing because
you haven't even given a scenario where you were actually a victim.
Special insight?
Nah.......

I must maintain my personal aversion to violence as I just can't see any value in it. In all honesty, what would you hope to achieve?

Touché. By all accounts, prison is a terrible place. Perhaps the methods of incarceration can be addressed. I will be the first to admit that I have few, if any, of the important answers. I simply feel the need to find alternatives to brute tactics.

Make sure they never do it again plus a deterrent the the fuckers in waiting.

More violence is a deterrent to violence! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...bombs/High.gif

It certainly would be to these rodents.

Indeed, they would not be able to do it again. I'd say the same result would be achieved by lifetime imprisonment. As to deterrence, I am not so sure. I've heard various claims denouncing the deterrent value of prison, so I fear the same might hold true here. I honestly don't know if it would have the desired effect. I must admit I am fairly certain Bruce knows more about this than I do; he seems much more knowledgeable and well-read on social issues. My ethics are my own guide here, though, and they are quite firmly established.

I actually respect everyone else's right to their opinions and appreciate the opportunity to discuss them. At the moment it seems rather obvious to me that we are at something of an impasse, however. Perhaps for now it would be best (as the expression goes) to simply agree to disagree.

Ummmmmm read my second part of the my post, I don't agree any less with you that they are monsters.

You're right about prison not being a deterrent. The street punks aren't afraid of prison. They expect it before they are 21. They don't fear it because their buddies are there waiting for them and when they get out it gives them street creds.

If prison isn't a deterrent or rehabilitation facility, then it's only doing a small part of what it should. Since "hard labor" went out with sword fighting and knickers, the only bad thing about prison, for these hoods, is the boredom. For kids waiting all day on the street corner, or basketball court, for something interesting to happen, that's not much of a deterrent.

I didn't question the second part of your post, I just said the first part is a moot point.

Godzilla is a fictional character.

These kids are real.

It's shocking and disgusting what they've done.

They should pay for their crime.

If they're sent to adult prison, they'll definitely get a piece of what they gave.

Any chance of rehabilitation for them?

I doubt it.

You also can't forget you have gauranteed shelter and food, sometimes entertainment.

True, some people live much more comfortably in prison than on the street. Sure as hell wouldn't be my choice, though.

Not by a long-shot. I've been on the street and, well not prison but jail.
I would still choose the street ANY DAY of the week.
& I was one of the guys who got his way... I can't imagine what it was like for the pretty boys, ugh!

Pretty or not, if you have a clique of your hoodies, gang members and relatives waiting for you on the inside, it's not a problem. It's only a problem for guys like us that are on our own.

Most people on the street are not alone either. Everyone I knew had a peer group.

Sure, but on the street, you don't get the; That was the case for being more comfortable in prison than on the street.

You brought up the dangers; And I pointed out that isn't a problem for these scumbags; Now I'd definitely rather be on the street, but it's not a deterrent for these scumbags that commit these atrocities.

Character disorder = personality disorder.

This is NOT equivalent to someone who has a diagnosable major mental illness (Depression, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, etc.), although I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts that each of these perpetrators carries one or more of these diagnoses, even if they don't actually exhibit the full symptom spectrum. Why? Insurance companies don't pay for personality disorders.

These bastards just need to die.

[Threadjack] Wolf, I caught some guy on TV last night claiming a huge percentage of the people taking up space in the state and county jails should really be in your care. It was just a clip and I didn't get the details.[/threadjack]