The Cellar - Tragedy Begs Question of a Merciful God

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Tragedy Begs Question of a Merciful God

Quote:

Originally Posted by AP

BALLWIN, Mo. - Five youngsters, including four siblings, drowned during a church outing after one became caught in a river's undertow and the others jumped in to help, authorities said Monday. A sixth youth was rescued and hospitalized.

The six were part of a group of about 50 youngsters with the St. Louis Dream Center, an interdenominational church that was celebrating a volunteer appreciation day with a barbecue and swimming in Castlewood State Park southwest of St. Louis.

People at the scene said the youths were swept away as they played in the Meramec River on Sunday evening, said Tracy Panus, a spokeswoman for St. Louis County police. They ranged in age from 10 to 17, officials said.

Edris Moore, the mother of the four siblings, said Monday outside her St. Louis home that she was placing her faith in God. The mother of the fifth child declined to comment Monday and retained two attorneys.

Moore has four surviving children, two of whom were at the outing. She said that it "doesn't concern me" precisely what transpired and that the children "went on to be with the Lord."

Said church pastor Jeff Allensworth: "Let me say this is one of the most horrendous things a church family, any family, would have to go through. I just ask that as we sort through this and minister to the families, you all pray for us."

Authorities received the first call around 6:30 p.m. Sunday and worked through the night to find the victims.

Metro West Fire Department Chief Vincent Loyal said that when rescue workers arrived, two victims had already been pulled from the river, and that one later died. The second youth, a male, was hospitalized, Loyal said.

The body of the last victim was pulled from the river about 6 a.m. Monday.

Parts of the river are shallow enough to walk in, but St. Louis County Police Lt. Gary Barra said the bodies were found in water eight to 12 feet deep.

The victims were four boys, Ryan Mason, 14; Damon Johnson, 17; Bryant Barnes, 10; and Deandra Sherman, 16; and a 13-year-old girl, Dana Johnson, said Terry Ledbetter of the St. Louis County medical examiner's office. All the children except Deandra were Moore's.

Moore, who works at the Dream Center as a cook, said none of the children had ever taken swimming lessons.

Rescue workers were hampered by inconsistent reports about how many children were attending the event and how many were missing, Panus said.

"It was just depressing," Panus said. "It was horrible. You have a church group out there for a good reason, a good cause. No one is out there drinking or getting stoned, and a tragedy can happen just like that. It's kids and it's tragic."

According to its Web site, the Dream Center in north St. Louis is an interdenominational church that offers a variety of social services from a teen drop-in center to programs for the homeless.

Okay...so, a bunch of children on a church outing drown, five of the six apparently while trying to heroically save the first drowning youth. One mother puts her faith in almighty God, the other hires lawyers.

Sometimes I don't really understand religion, I guess.

*wince* Man, I dont care if theyre christian, mormon, hindu or neo-nazi, a bunch of kids drowning is just plain bad news.

Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer? :confused:

It's always very sad when children die. There is just one thing that bothers me about this.

Quote:

Moore, who works at the Dream Center as a cook, said none of the children had ever taken swimming lessons.

So, four of the six in that boat, four of the five who died, could not swim. What idiot allowed children who cannot swim to go out and play in a river?

Quote:

Moore has four surviving children, two of whom were at the outing. She said that it "doesn't concern me" precisely what transpired and that the children "went on to be with the Lord."

Ah, religion, comfort food for the mind. Hey, she had a family of 8 kids, so at least she has 4.

Quote:

As Moore huddled with her family and pastor in her home, friends of the five young victims wandered over to the St. Louis Dream Center, an urban ministry founded by wealthy televangelist Joyce Meyer.

I swear, people like Joyce Meyer make so much money off of duping people into her brand of religion. I wish Meyer, Dobson, Robertson, Wildman, Falwell, all those money-grubbing televangelists would go to the same river and get swept away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tse Moana

So, four of the six in that boat, four of the five who died, could not swim. What idiot allowed children who cannot swim to go out and play in a river?

I don't think there was a boat involved. It sounds like they were just cooling off in the shallow water of the river and one got out into the current, too far. When one got swept away the others tried to help.

Newspaper quotes don't convey emotions. We also don't know what else she said that wasn't quoted.

I would assume this woman is weeping for her lost children and has turned to her faith for comfort. In the face of a tragedy of this magnitude, she's trying to cope and has rationalized they've gone to God. What else can she do? :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

You're right, there's no boat mentioned in the article. But then still, I would not let children who cannot swim play in a river, no matter how shallow the part the were in was. With a river you never know how it may react, it can have treacherous undercurrents that can sweep someone away before they realise it. As happened here.

Letting non-swimming kids play in a shallow, closed off pool or something under supervision) okay, but not in a river or sea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tse Moana

Letting non-swimming kids play in a shallow, closed off pool or something under supervision) okay, but not in a river or sea.

Where were their life jackets??! What idiot would take a bunch of children, never mind a bunch of children who had never had swimming lessons, anywhere with water and not make them wear life jackets? And why would a parent not check this out in advance (ie: what safety measures will you be using to keep my children safe)?

Stormie

Quote:

What idiot would take a bunch of children, never mind a bunch of children who had never had swimming lessons, anywhere with water and not make them wear life jackets?

Some well-meaning but undereducated and undertrained members of a St. Louis mission. Not too many evangelical missions in urban St. Louis are gonna have life jakckets, and not too many black kids from urban St. Louis are gonna get swimming lessons. Having said that, that bitch Joyce Meyers should have coughed up some of her fortune to give those kids more than religion.:mad:

As a spoilt white kid from the suburbs, it astounds me how little public amenities urban kids have. I was lucky to have summer camps with councilors, swimming lessons, and any number of organized activities to keep me running around in a safe and fun manner.

Elspode's question pertaining to the concept of a merciful God when we are faced with tragedy and grief is a very difficult one . As usual , I do not have any answers , but the book ' The Problem of Pain' by C.S. Lewis is a classic on the subject . It is well worth reading .

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer? :confused:

Not at all...I am just continually astounded at what blind faith is all about, and also what blind greed is all about.

This is, of course, an unmitigated tragedy. Things like this make me wonder how people continue to view Jehovah as a loving, forgiving god instead of just realizing that The Universe works the way it works...good, bad or indifferent. It also makes me wonder about people who use tragedy to reap profit. I think the law is perfectly capable of determining whether or not negligence was involved, but instead, lawyers are going to threaten whoever has the deepeset pockets that was involved in any way...be that the church, the State Park, the people supervising the trip, the maker of the swimming trunks the kids were wearing...

I was just expressing dismay and provocation at the two different reactions to the same event, and hoping to stimulate a little discussion about what others think or feel about same.

Wow. I think if something like this happened to me I would need something to hold on to. Though I am at constant question with myself about the existence of a higher being, if I had to go through something like that I would hope to have some kind of faith to hold on to. But I don't know that I would. I would probably be cursing the God I had just praised.

It's terribly sad.

Quote:

The victims were four boys, Ryan Mason, 14; Damon Johnson, 17; Bryant Barnes, 10; and Deandra Sherman, 16; and a 13-year-old girl, Dana Johnson, said Terry Ledbetter of the St. Louis County medical examiner's office. All the children except Deandra were Moore's.

It's a horrible tragedy, and the teens who jumped in to save the first kid were brave and heroic. However, this is just irritating me more and more as I think about it:

Edris Moore lost four children. In age order they are: Damon Johnson, 17; Ryan Mason, 14; Dana Johnson, 13; and Bryant Barnes, 10. She also has four additional children, and I would bet any sum of money that none of them has the last name Mason, Barnes, or even Johnson (despite the fact that he makes repeat appearances between other children). I just... birth control. BIRTH CONTROL, dammit.

But if you don't have 8 kids and you suddenly lose 4, you won't have 4 left to take care of you in your old age.

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Things like this make me wonder how people continue to view Jehovah as a loving, forgiving god instead of just realizing that The Universe works the way it works...good, bad or indifferent

Not everyone that believes in God feels he takes a hand in day to day life. Some believe he just waiting to judge how you behaved, when it's over. Of course there's probably some people that believe any particular scenario you can come up with in between, too. :D

Quote:

She said that it "doesn't concern me" precisely what transpired and that the children "went on to be with the Lord."

That sounds to me like the reporter was grilling her on the details, they can be insensitive. She probably didn't want to discuss her feelings with a reporter, at the time.
My sister was killed in an automobile accident at 14, and the reporters twisted my Mother, pretty badly until Pop blew his top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That sounds to me like the reporter was grilling her on the details, they can be insensitive. She probably didn't want to discuss her feelings with a reporter, at the time. My sister was killed in an automobile accident at 14, and the reporters twisted my Mother, pretty badly until Pop blew his top.

*That* is a definite possibility. And I'm sorry for what your family had to go through. People can really suck when they put their minds to it.