Words in the wrong context
 

I guess we all notice things about how others communicate with us, but one thing that bugs me is when people use the wrong word in place of the right word.

As an example, and one of the situations that really bugs me, is when people use the word 'then' instead of 'than'. eg. 'I'd rather go to bed then watch tv', instead of, 'I'd rather go to bed than watch tv'.

Another one is when people say 'axe' instead of 'ask'.

I think my main objection to it is from a traditional stance in that the english language is bastardized more than enough through slang and local nuances. Do we really have to make it worse by using the completely wrong word? Isn't it possible to learn at least the basics?

I argument with that.

of course

It's spelled "aks", Ali. As in, "didja aks her out?"

Oh yeah...silly me. I should have realized you don't type a real word when you're describing someone else's pronunciation errors.

You mean, like people who say 'boot' when they mean 'trunk'?

or trunk when they mean boot even...

To be honest though, that's not really what I meant. I think you know that though right HLJ?

Don't misunderestimate yourself.

And youse guy's are really great.

I'm sure I could of thunk up more examples.

On this topic, I have been thinking about ZippyT's ... how can I put this ... unconventional approach to spelling. At first I dismissed this as the struggles of someone whose literacy level was sorely lacking (my apologies for this Zippy!) but I've been wondering, provided that there is a large enough group that take the same apporach, use the same spellings, etc, could we say Zippy is writing - CORRECTLY - in a dialect of English different from, eg, mine?

At what point does a local peculiarity become a legitimate regional dialect? And when or how does this become dominant?
For example, of course the correct spelling of words like colour and flavour involve the letter "u" ( ;) ) but our American friends had to save ink (something about rationing during the war of independence, I think) and left the "u" out, to the point that this is now the (statistically) prevalent form. How many people need to agree on a non-standard usage or spelling for it to become an "accepted" variant? And then the "standard" form?

What you suggest is true and obviously how languages evolve. Of course, english in all it's forms originated from german language, so perhaps the German people should be complaining about how we've destroyed their language.

I think my argument just stems from irritation at hearing words pronounced or used in the wrong way. No great philosophy about it. Just a basic human emotion.

Ali - yes, I'm just kidding you

ZG - I agree about 'could of'

This is a little different, but the phrase 'try and ___' drives me nuts, and I see it all the time. It should be 'try to ___.' For example, "I'll try and call before I leave." Now that I've mentioned it, maybe it will bug you too.

[snicker]

[/anal]



Sorry, Ali, love you really.

Are you ripping on the lower-case 'e' or the apostrophe?

I know you do Zen. ;)

Now you're getting HLJ. :D

Both - the bold is a bit hard to see.

"try and ..." ugghhh.

'try and...' may be grammatically less correct than 'try to...', but it is in common usage in many spoken dialects of english. I use it myself.

Well, there you go! If enough people say it, it becomes "common usage." Our kids very early on picked up the habit of using "done" without "with" (example: "I'm done my homework"). It drives my wife and me up the wall, but lots of people around here seem to do it. (Including, to my amused horror, my son's language arts teacher when we went in for our regularly scheduled conference with her.)

The question on what spelling variants are included in the dictionary largely depends on the publishers of those dictionaries. These dictionary publishers tend to be conservative, so even a widespread misspelling would not generally make it into the dictionary.

For example, "embarrassed" is the dictionary-standard spelling. However, on the Web, it is not the most common spelling. The most common Web spelling is "embarassed" (one r, not two). Yet the dictionary makers would likely not include this most widespread spelling even though it outnumbers the correct spelling on the Web by about 2 to 1.

Other words take a long time to change their spellings. "Minuscule" is the correct spelling per dictionary, but it is slowly losing out to the widespread misspelling of "miniscule". How slowly? So far it's taken over a hundred years and "minuscule" is still the standard spelling.

"Through" is similarly entrenched against "thru". Even though "thru" was in acceptable use as a variant spelling when Johnson released the first edition of his dictionary in the 18th century, he chose to prefer the archaic "through" and that is what we have used ever since.

English spellings tend not to change because the spellings of English work a bit like this:
* The people use dictionaries to look up spellings
* Dictionaries record common usage
* Common usage comes from the people

This mechanism is similar to:
* Rock beats scissors
* Scissors beats paper
* Paper beats rock

There is actually a literary term for this. It is called "eye dialogue" or "creative respelling," and I am thinking of using it for my master's thesis, if I ever get that far. :D

A peeve of mine is saying "I could care less" when they really mean "I couldn't care less." If you could care less, that means you care a lot, right?

Then...there are those errors that you think about fondly, because someone you loved very much used to say them and though it irritated the snot out of you at the time, you'd do anything to hear it again....(sigh) My dad used to say this: "neither mind." (never mind)

supposably. go to the liberry, and look that word up.

Ah yes, the liberry, my favorite fruit. ;)

< nitpick > Though English is a 'Germanic' language, it's not a descendant of German. They both descend from the same origins, yes, but they evolved a lot due to separation, and then got further separated thanks to multiple invasions of what became England.

Also one of my pet peeves:)

That's one of my peeves too...try and..., I mean. Also, someone who says anyways.

I have my share of regional error speaking...but I'm a firm believer that popular usage doesn't make it right. I catch myself a lot.

My big thing lately is a certain, um...dialect (?) that uses the long e sound for i and and i sound for a long e. For example "He feeled the water glass for me, but I still fill nothing towards him romantically."

Ugh.

Oh, and then there's FASSA.

Nothing wrong with dialect forms. 'Standard' English is just the dialect which won out as the 'correct' version, refined through latinate grammar.

At what point does it end. If I can convince everyone that "slapbuttosky" is another word for "spaghetti" will that be OK? :lol:

It's an ever-evolving language , to be sure. I'm a language purist without the knowledge a language purist should have. In other words, I know just enough to be dangerous.

lol. Highly unlikely. Very few new words or usages stick long term. The replacement of 'to' with 'and' is a particular kind of deviation from standard, but I can't recall the mechanism. There are a few similar ones that have a tendency to crop up in certain dialects.

I'm also the worst when it comes to "fad" phrases. I was a TOTAL (joke intended) valley girl talking young lady in HS and college, and now I use internet based phrases and some young lingo, just because I pick up stuff like that easily. I probably sound stupid. hee heee

OMG, like, I am SO immature for my age.

Also, if I spent a week in England I can guarantee you the accent will creep into my speech. That's a desirable thing, imo.

I'll just throw this one out there -

"Lemme acks you - can I borrow your inkpen?

I don't like that, but I use it for one word: "league". I say "ligg". How many teams are in this ligg? Do they play in the American or the National ligg? For some reason I find it enjoyable to say it that way.

I grew up around fairly heavy southern US/Appalachian accents. I lost most of mine, partly through (I think) several years of speech therapy when I was little. I then lived in bigger (but still Southern) cities for six years, followed by Philadelphia for 18.

The guy I'm tutoring through the literacy council has a very thick South Philly accent.

At certain times, hilarity ensues from the combinations of accents.

[Word in a book: Past]
Him: Pass'
Me: It's Past.
Him: Oh, Pass'
Me: PasT
Him: Pass'.

etc. :)

Heard from a co-worker from a manufacturing job a long time ago:

He (the technical writer) is goin' to change the floormat of our work procedures again. He's already done it twicet.

I thought of another one, and I am guilty of it but I'm also very aware and hear it in commercials, on TV shows...sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised to hear it correctly on things I might otherwise expect poor grammar, and chagrined to hear it incorrectly on productions I feel should know better:

Using that instead of who. For example "Those girls that ate the nachos are now very sick." To me, it should be "those girls WHO ate..."

I'm not even sure it's grammatically incorrect, but it drives me crazy.

I think a good hefty percentage of Americans have some kind of accent that creeps in when they aren't paying attention. I do. I have KY/Appalachian roots, and I catch myself saying the darndest things. Like "winduh" instead of "window." Or "fill" instead of "feel."

Of course, the city of Louisville is properly pronounced "Louvul." I live near Centerville, so natch, I call it "Centervul." Yes, people give me strange looks.

One thing my hubby teases me about is calling the TV remote a "flipper." He said he'd never heard anybody else in the whole wide world say that, and I'm sure that's true. But it still makes perfect sense to me, as in, "flip" the channels, as you would have done on an old-fashioned TV with a dial. I think I got the term from my grandma.

Everyone knows that a "flipper" is really a spatula. :)

One of my favorite books when I was younger was Frindle. You ought to read it sometime, even though it's a kids book.

I also have a big pet peeve with "I could care less" and I lecture my boyfriend for phrases like this all the time.

My family calls it the clicker, even though it doesn't click. I just call it the 'remote.'

In Ohio there is a town called Lancaster. However, as many of my co-students in college who hailed from there told me "It's not Lancaster, it's Lancaster." The second one is pronounced "lank-ster." They get really testy if you pronounce it incorrectly.

What do you mean 'The remote'? There are several remotes - one for the surround system, one for the DVD player, one for the projector, one for the lights, one for the little girl who lives in the lane, etc.

One of my annoying traits is picking up on other people's mis-pronounciations (genuine or unintentional) and using them for my own amusement. When I'm in a relationship or a close friendship it's not so bad - they become part of the verbal shorthand. I know I've passed on a couple to other people that way.

But when I'm by myself they are the archetypal private joke - even I find it wearing. I often repeat things under my breath, or just think them if I'm having a conversation.

For example thinking Ly-ces-ter to myself when talking about Leicester. Or Pickaly-Dickaly when talking about Piccadilly Circus, or the Piccadilly Line. Both of those come from a documentary about the staff at Islington station that I watched when I was still at school - one of the guards used to pretend to be helpful to tourists but really screw them over. I suppose he was a "character" but for Dad it confirmed his view of North Londoners. Miserable sod, he said.

My newest one is calling one of our bitters Bom-BAR-dee-ay. After a customer asked for it that way. Prior to that I'd been walking round with the poem Timothy Winters in my head "Old man Winters likes his beer/ And his missus ran off with a bombadier/ Grandma sits in the grate with a gin/ and Timothy's dosed with an aspirin."

Sloppy language bothers me though. I probably do say, "Try and..." although it would come out as trine - as in, "I'm not sure, I'll trine find out for you." I'm pretty sure I wouldn't write it though. At least not in a formal letter. It's like should have sounding like should of - I'd never write should of but I could be accused of saying it. We run our words together here you see.

I don't use the word got in conversation though. I say have. Also try my best never to confuse can and may. And get me and I correct.

I'm a good girl I am.

should of instead of should have is often the abreviation, should've. So maybe you're not so bad after all Sundae. ;)

How about the absence of "to be".. For instance -
The car needs to be washed.

Try to ____ is a single-verb construction. Try and _____ is two separate verbs, two separate actions, and quite a possible logical construction. True mastery of your native tongue is knowing which of the two you are using and to what end.

True mastery may also be shown in mastering archaic present tense -- in case thou dost not protest too much, or something.

A pet peeve I've taken to scratching behind the ears of is the use of subject forms of the pronoun when the objective is called for: the object of the verb or the preposition is not "I," blast it, it is "me." Sleeping through elementary-school grammar isn't how to do well in life. Would you say (a particular offender) "between . . . I?" "To . . . I?" No, you wouldn't. And you aren't supposed to, no matter who's in company with you in the predicate clause.

Latinate vocabulary, yes; latinate grammar no, despite the dominies' try at making us never end sentences a preposition with, up with which we don't now put. Because structurally, you can't do that in Latin. But English isn't Latin. It even has more letters -- K, U, W, a frenchy J, and a Z. Between the Angles and the Saxons speaking distinct tongues, but still with eighty to ninety percent commonality, Old English had all its noun declensions knocked off in the collisions -- grammar teachers being thin on the ground in the Dark Ages. It already had few verb forms to keep track of, so I suppose (without certainty) that our trains of auxiliary verbs to arrive at the meaning we intend for the verb in the sentence were already being joined up.

We did keep declining pronouns, though, at least into subjective and objective cases -- though usually we just call them forms. We share this not only with the Germanic group, but indeed all of Europe. (What do the Basques do to personal pronouns? And who besides a Basque can tell?:cool: )

Juniper: except the ones that are spatulate seal parts.

Once when I was in high school, the French class two of my compadres were taking introduced the subjunctive. They got into an argument over whether or not there's a subjunctive in English.[/geeks]

Oh I realise that Latinate grammar is not successfully applied to English, but the fact remains much of what is considered 'correct' grammar is an attempt to crowbar the language into an alien grammatical framework. This didn't happen during the Dark Ages, it happened later during a resurgence in popularity for Latin studies. This applies most particularly to written English.

In England, Standard English is effectively the bastard son of the dominant Old English dialect and incoming Norman French. It is the dialect of the wealthiest and most fertile areas of Britain. Other dialects, many so varied as to be sister languages, rather than mere variations, didn't hold the same currency and when language became more formalised, were relegated to incorrect forms.

No, UG, it isn't the way to do well in language classes. I have known successful people whose command of grammar would make you wince. I have likewise known people whose understanding of grammar bordered on the obsessive and for whom life was somehow very difficult.

An understanding of grammar is a good skill to have. The English language is so vast and complex that to be absolute in that understanding would require years of careful study. Not everybody chooses to know how the engine of their car works. As long as it carries them where they need to go and there are people willing to train as mechanics, why should they?

If you can make yourself understood, then you are achieving what you set out to achieve when you use the tool of language.

I wish I were knowledgable about the subjunctive mood. ;)

And on a somewhat related note:
Who came up with the spelling of choose, chose, lose, loose?

Choose rhymes with lose (at least in American English). Chose rhymes with hose. Loose rhymes with caboose. No wonder people have trouble learning English.

For some reason I think "try and" sounds less bossy than "try to". I use both.


Maybe it all isn't about the level of literacy, and more about personal preferences like that one.

Except for SteveDallas's example of "done my homework". Now that's just odd. Maybe that's a west coast thing.

Except that we live in Philadelphia!

"All the sudden" what?

I talk to a lot of people everyday and I'll just post them as I hear them.

"The car needs washed."
Seems to be a central PA thing.

You can add "loos" to the list. It's British slang for "toilets".

Pronunciations change but spellings are fossilized. Blood, flood. Great, steak, break. Vein, grey, they. There are ten or so different ways of pronouncing "ough". All these groups of words have changed their pronunciation but retained their archaic spellings.

English spelling is the linguistic equivalent of what you get when you don't cut the grass and prune the roses for a long time.

It's also a fairly standard construction in Scottish English.

And then there's this spelling of fish:
ghoti

bollocks ;)


as for aks/ask ... you'd be a marked target if you said ask in some areas of Detroit -it's not just an ignorant mispronunciation -it's dialect.

The story behind "ghoti."

I heard this sort of locution in the Navy all the time. Everywhere the Navy was.

I chalk it up to "elliptical construction."

Actually, in the area of PA I grew up in, you didn't wash a car, you warshed it. With whuter. Don't forget to check yer oal while yer at it.

Or should I say, while ya'll're at it.

I always check my earl. I do warsh my car... with wooder.

Lemmee ast ya this: jever go up the mall? Or down the shore?

Kul! I live in Kettering!!!

(I know, completely out of line with this thread---sorry!)


Here's a good Appalachian word combo: writin' stick

as in, "Kin I borruh yer writin' stick?"

other faves: vomick (vomit) and swolled (swollen)