Be careful. :eyebrow:

You still stuck on that?

I worry about changing what one perceives to be reality when it doesn't jibe with what everyone else perceives it to be. Unintended consequences.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not seeing reality any differently. I'm still as cynical as ever.

The difference is in the reaction. Things don't really go wrong. Things go. We make it wrong based on our perspective. Or right, if we approve of the outcome. Stripping away emotional response to things out of your control gives improved clarity of thought, not denial.

Understanding that you actually can't lose parts of yourself brings calm. If you inject your identity into objects... My Harley, your Ssr. My guitar I made.... Not really part of me. More part of my ego. I'm still me if I had to sell them.

Capice?

Losing my daughter stretches the boundaries of that, because I will actually not have her children to spoil, and my family or genetic line is lessened. But I'm still whole. I didn't lose anything I was born with.

[Bold mine]

You can take solace in that your daughter probably recognized this is how you would feel and it made her difficult decision easier.

For someone so well adjusted, you're pretty fucking callous on this topic. Almost seems like you're doing it on purpose.

Your daughter saw you go through this when your marriage died. She knew the deal, what she could expect. I do. Most everyone else does. I'm glad you found your distraction by immersing yourself in the power of now. It's an interesting read/case study. Viewing it any other way won't change anything and would undermine my power of now.

Yeah, I see what you're driving at. I've know people who lost a spouse then went into a spiral because they weren't a complete whole. Also teen/early 20's boys who lost their car and just lost interest in anyone or anything.
I've never gotten so attached to an item that I felt without it I wasn't complete. That may be because I have a habit of breaking shit. :haha:
I do try to figure out how it will change my plans so I can act accordingly, being annoyed I was forced to do that. I have said damn, I wish I still had that, but it's usually at the beginning or end of a story.

Having emotions is human, and displaying them is part of our complex communication between humans, also between people and pets. People look askew at anyone who doesn't display at least some of the emotion they expect in a given situation.

I wish she had given a reason in the note, but it is what it is. You'll be OK.

I AM ok.

If she had left a well thought out, winning argument for her right to take her own life, complete with all the reasons and they all made sense, how would that change anything? It would just give us specific points to argue with and resist.

The note said, "I'm so so sorry. I love you so much"

Enough to let us know that she did it on purpose.

Spencer was there. She never asked to be saved, or displayed panic like you would if you had changed your mind about it.

I'm not suppressing my emotions. Emotions arise from the physical reaction to thought. I've accepted the reality, so I'm not having regretful thoughts or entertaining fantasies about how I could have prevented it. Nor am I projecting forward into thoughts about what I'll miss in the future without her. Mostly. I still get sad when it comes up. I still occasionally shed a tear when I do dally into the past or future, but always use that as an alert to my thoughts and bring myself back to the moment.

This thread is about how and why to do that. You're resisting it for your own reasons. You don't have to share, but I think you might want to investigate it within yourself.

You might benefit from this mumbo jumbo, given your health issues and, I would imagine, sense of semi-imminent mortality. My pain from the past, yours from the future. Same balm.

To die before you die is to let your ego go while you're still aware. To allow your ID to come forward and realize that you're just on loan. You will return to the earth from which you came. You can't take a single atom with you when you pass.

If it works for you that's great, go with it. However you're preaching this as the holy grail, salvation for all, and I don't believe that. I think there are people who will have reality come back to bite them in the ass when they repeat mistakes that they could have avoided.

I've been trying not to preach. Trying to offer counterpoint. This works for me. Maybe a few others that aren't speaking here. All it really amounts to is increased self awareness. That seems to piss you off. Why?

Well (hole in the ground, about 50 ft. deep, you get water out of it), when you go on and on about it you make it sound like it's THE solution rather than an adjunct to the natural grieving process. It makes it seem that you're trying to reduce lives to the status of property the loss of which is easier to deal with. There's nothing new under the sun with the power of now. It's just a distraction. It's just trying to keep your mind off your loses until time heals all wounds as people have done forever. Thinking that you've got a panacea is purely egotistical. The kind of ego that can't be bruised by a balanced concern over it's role in matters past, present, and future. It eventually makes one expendable in other people's lives leading to failed relationships. Other than that it's mox nix. Good luck with that.

No, it's not new. I don't think it's a cure all either. I've been going on in this thread because that's what this thread is.

So easy to confuse what I'm describing as apathy. Not at all the case. And it's clearly not for everyone. Since the only ones commenting at this point are apparently irritated by the concepts, I guess there's no need to continue sharing what I'm learning. Your opinion of what's going on with me is not correct. Probably in large part due to the limited info you get from what I post here and what I feel. It's not really possible to describe with words because words are by definition thought.

Your comments on this topic, in particular, have seemed either self congratulatory or condescending. I understand that the same inaccuracy exists in my interpretation of your posts. You probably don't intend to be that way.

So, you said what you said, and unless you actually are trying to troll me, it's all good in the hood.

So yeah, let this thread fade. I'm done.

I think it's similar to Buddhist meditation, which is so deep in humanity, it predates Christianity.

Ironic, because due to the warm relationship building you have done in this thread, people have asked me privately if you should be banned.

That's way worse than "expendable". It's not that they don't care if you are around. They actually want you gone.

Relationship expert, counsel thyself.

So what's new?

The power of now compels me.

What's new is the attention I'm paying to my own reactions. This would have devolved into a flame fest if I had not been.

Mocking me isn't very nice. I may be wrong, but I expect you're intent is to get a reaction so you can then show me that I'm wrong. That's ok, but I'm not trying to be right or show you that you're wrong in this thread, so... . I hope you didn't take it that way. I was just trying to point to something I find useful.

I'm not a case study. I'm your friend. Peace

Hmmm, I dunno, you once said that if someone doesn't post their picture in the Cellar they can't be your friend and I still haven't done that.

You've seen for yourself that it's not just me. I'm just the one who's not going to pussyfoot around with you. While you're certainly entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. As long as you're just trying to point to something that YOU find useful, it's all good.

I'm not looking for any reaction, just to keep opinions in perspective. There's no trolling or flame war. If that was my intention, I would have laid into you from the start. I'm responding as you demonstrate you can handle my responses. Others may think you need to be coddled. I do not. My sword is mighty; but, my pen is mightier. If I decide to virtually attack someone here, I'll leave no doubt in their mind. Peace, and long life.

I re read this. The last sentence.... What mistake do you think I made that I might be at risk of repeating? Or am I missing your point? I'm not telling you that I erase my memories. I am merely not residing in them. They're there, clear as can be. I can still see her there on the table. It was real. It no longer is. Now it's my memory I see.

The only fact I've offered is that everything unfolds in the present moment.

The rest is my opinion and advice.

I think you're right. I was wrong when I said that about the pictures. I have a clear image of most of you without them. And they don't really matter. The intent of that statement wasn't truly literal though, anyway. What I think I meant at the time was that if you're guarded and unwilling to share your real self (maybe a photo was a bad example) then we can't really share and connect as friends are wont to do.

Your sword and pen are just as impressive as your empathy.

My reticence isn't about you, and it doesn't piss me off. Like I said if it works for you that's great, I'm just cautioning others to be careful of this path and be aware because you're a fucking good salesman.

The years teach us what the days never knew. If you stay in the now and don't reflect on the past, then you can't try to plan the future avoiding those pitfalls, there is a good chance of repeating your fuck ups. Personally I try not to make the same mistakes more than 4 or 5 times. :blush:

Don't take my skepticism personally. In collage my roommate nagged me into reading The Third Eye by Lobsang Rampa. As far as I was concerned it was Tibetan Science Fiction, nothing to do with the real world, but he wanted to believe. No problem, believe what you want as long as you come up with your share of the rent on time. And stop banging your chick in my bed when I'm gone for the weekend.

Sadhguru says in the opening of his book, Inner Engineering, that the present moment... Shtick... Can be dangerous. Can cause stagnation. I'm reading that now. I can see your point. As in all things, moderation.

Perhaps it's important to be more specific about my personal context. At times of crisis, Tolle is a powerful teacher. When things are normal, others may have more to offer. Or maybe we need all of it at once.

I'm learning. I'm not qualified to instruct. I offer this Now stuff here as a resource for times of trouble. Your mileage will vary.

I read Tolle years ago. I was struck that it was pretty derivative of Buddhism but maybe more accessible for a Western audience. I guess I'm one of those who has been largely silent on this thread who finds some peace in trying to go through life informed by this. Some folks believe this kind of thinking could make us too accepting of things that should be fought, maybe this is where Bruce is coming from?

Consider it in light of the Serenity Prayer:

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Use an applicable method or technique as a tool; but, not as a crutch. It shouldn't interfere with acquiring the wisdom to know the difference between what you should accept and what you should change. When someone extols the virtue of a method/technique disproportionate to other applicable ones, it raises a red flag that it could be being used as a crutch. Crutches are symptomatic treatment and don't treat the underlying cause. Crutches alone may seem like a quick way around a problem; but, the short-term gain may not outweigh creating a long-term dependency on them. If one presents as overly reliant on a method/technique, hopefully one's friends will seek to help balance them out.

Becoming balanced depends various factors including a person's Power of Humility (in the psychology sense). The stronger the ego, the harder a well balanced position is to achieve. The tendency is to want to simply manage adversity through force of will. The Power of Humility; however, is more a leadership function than a management one. The Power of Humility makes for strong leaders; because, those who have it listen to others and allow them to help resolve issues rather than just telling them how it's going to be done. The power of humility takes one from just talking the talk, to walking the walk. The Power of Now always has its place. Its appeal has a tendency; however, to become exaggerated in those who don't make the Power of Humility cut.

Nah, I'm just a contrary prick. :lol:
I can see pitfalls in most cut and dried philosophies, also in ones winging it like Jim Jones and David Koresh. Maybe after Trump's war we can get better thinking.

I found a pdf of that book. Is this your concern, bruce?
I agree that if I was to ONLY live in the moment, this would be an issue. What I'm doing is working on the capability. Being Able to center myself when I choose to. Not to live in that place all day every day.


And once again, I apologize if anyone took this as preaching. It's a tricky thing. I found great usefulness, and want to share it. Easy to slip into preaching mode. To be persuasive about it.

Preach on bro.

Once it happened…Four men were walking in the forest. The first was a gnana yogi, the second was a
bhakti yogi, the third was a karma yogi, and the fourth was a kriya yogi.
Usually, these four people can never be together.


The gnana yogi has total disdain for every other type
of yoga. His is the yoga of the intellect, and typically, an intellectual has complete disdain for everybody
else, particularly these devotional types who look upward and chant God’s name all the time. They look
like a bunch of idiots to him.

But a bhakti yogi, a devotee, thinks all this gnana, karma, and kriya yoga is a waste of time. He pities
the others who don’t see that all you need to do is know that God exists, hold his hand, and walk in trust.
All this mind-splitting philosophy, this bone-bending yoga is absurd to him.

Then there is the karma yogi, the man of action. He thinks all the other types are just plain lazy. Their
lives are pure self-indulgence.

But the kriya yogi is the most disdainful of all. He laughs at everyone. Don’t they know that existence is
just energy? If you don’t transform your energy, whether you long for God or for anything else, nothing is
going to happen! There can be no transformation.

These four people customarily cannot get along. But today they happened to be walking together in the
forest. Suddenly, a storm broke out. It grew fierce. The rain started pouring down relentlessly. Drenched
to the skin, the four yogis started running, looking desperately for shelter.
The bhakti yogi, the devotion man, said, “There’s an ancient temple in this direction. Let’s go there.”
(As a devotee, he was particularly familiar with the geography of temples.)
They ran in that direction. They came to an ancient temple; all the walls had crumbled long ago; just the
roof and four columns remained. They rushed into the temple—not out of any love for God, but just to
escape the rain.

There was a deity in the center. They ran toward it. The rain started lashing from every direction. There
was no other place to go, so they moved closer and closer. Finally, there was no alternative. They just sat
down and embraced the idol.
The moment these four people hugged the idol, suddenly God appeared.

In all their minds the same question arose: why now? They wondered, “We expounded so many subtle
and arcane philosophies, worshipped at every possible sacred shrine, great and small, selflessly served
so many people, did so much body-breaking penance, but you never showed up. Now when we’re just
escaping the rain, you turn up. Why?”

God said, “At last you four idiots got together.”

here's an overlap of Tolle's thing. He's promoting the present moment awareness and quiet mind as an access point to the same goal. I guess they all are trying to help us see the same thing, but each have differing ways of illuminating the same truth. I never paid any attention to Yoga. Not this actual Yoga. I pay attention to fit women in tight pink outfits with their asses up in the air whenever I see it. But Spiritual Yoga was an abstract. Still is really. I'm interested now though. I know for sure that my physical body is out of tune/alignment. I think my mind and energy are more in tune, but still lacking.



It's gonna get weird in here.


weeee!

An interesting biproduct of trying to be aware of my own ego and my thought parade....and of trying to 'not know.' ( To not know is to be open to finding out. To know means you've stopped looking. I think. )

Anyway... I'm finding that I'm more... impressionable. A bit wide eyed at present.... Not overly, I think.... Just more aware that I don't really know what I had previously assumed. Less willing to react instantly with incomplete info. And seeing things from a bit more distance.

I'm seeing more that things are often backwards. Beginning with which direction to look for solutions when I think there is a problem. Mostly the issue is inward, not outward. Sometimes it's brought on from outside, but it's really how I take it.

I met an old guy today. 80. I had met him once before, but neither of us remember. He helped his grand son buy a car from us 3 1/2 years ago, and I did his deal.

He came because the bank had called him. His grandson had missed 2 payments. He must pay. His grandson had moved to Knoxville 4 months ago. They had had lunch a week before the kid (24 yrs old now) moved away for work. The girlfriend of one year went with him.

Since then, no contact. Since the bank called, he hadn't been able to get him on the phone. He had dates and times written in one of those little pocket notebooks of the times he called... Even had someone text him from his flip phone.

No reply. It was a whole story. I got the sense that it was his main focus.
He was angry about it. Even pantomimed shaking the kid by the collar at one point....

But I had to tell him... You promised to pay if he didn't. So you must pay. Or say fuck it. You're 80. Are you going to need good credit going forward?
You're not on the title, so you can't take the car. All you can do is pay or not pay. Why make it into a problem?

I also told him to try not to be angry. I said, you don't know enough yet to be angry. What if he's in trouble? Maybe he couldn't pay his phone bill either? I checked his insurance policy on the geico site, and it was inactive. Presumably for non payment... Maybe it's drugs? No. He never did that.... Maybe the girl? Nice girl.... Jail? ?? No idea.

So, You don't know. You're having both sides of the conversation in your head. It's not real. If you can't get him on the phone, get on a plane and go see him. You have his address. You're retired and you have the money. Go knock. Then you can choke him. If that's what you see he needs when you find him. Or don't.

Depends on how much you're willing to go through to find out what has gone on. I think he heard me. We talked for another 30 minutes.... Cool guy. Died when he was 25. Car crash... DOA, but he pulled through. Still has a metal chin.


And..
That Anias Nin quote jinx had as her signature.... 'We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are... '. This is quite clearly true to me now. I don't see you. I see light reflecting off of you. I see it inside my eyeballs at the back on the retina.

How far can you see? I used to wonder. As a kid... Looking out at the ocean on clear nights. I thought... I can see allll the way to the horizon. But.... You can't see any distance at all. It's like asking how far can you smell? Or touch or taste.

And the notion that we are part of the planet? That we are simply accumulations of what we've gathered over our lifetimes. Mentally, we accumulate the ideas and thoughts we're exposed to... through the filter of what has come before and/or the mood we're in when we hear it.... So... Random..... Accidental.... We could actually do that by design if we paid attention and made choices about what we want or don't want to be keeping. And the body is the same. We're accumulated earth. Small outcroppings. On loan until we die and give it back.

Aren't we though? Thinking about that... Yes, ok, I smoked.... Fine. But we're food. Made of food anyway. We ate a lot of things. Each one of us did. Those things.... It was plants, fruits, animals, drinks, drugs, medicine.... Some of it, we broke down and released their energy, and made more Jim or Tony or Bruce out of it. Some, we passed back to the planet, but the energy we used to make bigger or better bodies. Our particular body. Our bodies have memory.

We eat a banana. The banana has its own DNA. If you give a banana energy, it will turn it into more banana. If a person eats a banana, why don't we become more banana like? What changes the banana energy into that person's energy? We don't think about it. Science knows. That's that.

How do we manage to walk on two legs through a dark cinema, with a soda and popcorn and find our way back to our seat... To recognize our girl in the dark? To make a fade away jumper? To hit a baseball going 95 mph with a bat? To drive cars all the way home and have no recollection of the drive? Our bodies are fucking smart. That's how.

So lots of new thoughts to think. And I'm trying no to think so much. Funny.

This is huge. Empathy lives here. I can get so damned self-absorbed when I start assuming things.

This is, exactly, "This is Water", the David Foster Wallace graduation speech. It is life-changing and sums up a lot of this stuff.

The original speech if you prefer direct, have 23 minutes:



If you only have 9 minutes and a low attention span, someone has edited this into a more produced version. This gets taken down from youtube because copyright, I think, but here it is at this time:

A little of that but far from the rant sadhguru goes on. :mg:
Just in this thread you and Toad have introduced a bunch of philosophies that sometimes jibe and sometimes grate on each other. I guess they are like food stores, pick and choose from each to write your own menu.
That was probably a poor choice of words on my part, I used preaching as a shorthand for endorsing, expounding on, sharing new to you information with vigor. That's normal when you find something you feel is interesting and want to share it with friends. Didn't mean for it to sound judgmental, if I did I'm sorry.

I can certainly see the value of focusing on the task at hand without my mind wandering to the faux pas I committed at dinner with friends last Saturday, or the thing I promised to do next Tuesday.

If I'm doing something I fucked up before, I want to remember where I went wrong if I figured that out, but not dwell on the failure.

But, but, you're a dwellar! Maybe you're actually one of them cellarites. :eyebrow:

Sadhguru introduces Jiddu Krishnamurti


I'm down the rabbit hole now... Tolle did a bit of reading from the book called Krishnamurti's notebook.

this section of his talk about silencing the mind must have had some impact on Tolle...

Stumbled on this today...

Kind of relevant.

Attention = awareness



When he says, 'I wonder if you can see this'. Or something to that effect... He's saying something important.

He's hard to follow.... I wish he wasn't dead. The way he makes very sure he understands the question... And then goes into them.... To go into... To investigate them.

OK now I'm overwhelmed with video to watch...!

Peterson-McGilchrist is just dense with thoughts. They're saying profound, amazing things every few minutes. It's like, whoa, I need to stop and digest that bit about the brain, but you guys have already moved on to the nature of God!

It's quite the rabbit hole.

The other night I decided I had come to a conclusion. It's awareness. Throughout every one of these thinkers' messages. Awareness. Attention. When you are fully aware, time goes away. Fully aware.

But that's not a conclusion. Is it? Just a point of overlap. I'm changing. But I'm not. I was already there. Just that I'm seeing it more...

Hello to so many familiar names.

Mine is not going to be familiar to you, although I used to hang out in the Cellar a lot. I changed my name legally early last year, after a year of multiple severe emotional traumas. Along with it, I ditched my email addresses, amongst other things. I used to be sandypossum in the Cellar.

I have severe PTSD and I've also lost the ability to think in straight lines, or express myself well. I find it hard to maintain focus on anything complex. Can no longer read anything more than short articles, can't even watch many movies as I can't hold the narrative. Communication is difficult for me, but it's one of the main keys to any kind of recovery. I live in a remote area, and due to what happened, even within my area I am quite isolated.

A few weeks ago I remembered the Cellar. I had forgotten about all of you, and the level of conversation here. So I tried to come back but could not rememer my password, or access my old email address to get a reset so I had to join again. I can't make any new posts as a newbie - it said I had to reply to other posts first to show I'm real (fair enough) so here I am.

Am I right that there are far fewer Cellarites now?? It seems less busy here. But I was pleased to see many names I recognised from back then.

Do any of you remember me as sandypossum? I'm in Australia

I would really like to pick your brains on advice on how to move forward. (I don't want a shoulder to cry on.) I spent a year on the move (basically homeless though not destitute, just moving from place to place, wherever it felt safe, through Australia, Sweden, Belgium, New Zealand and Thailand) and in that time met a lot of people. I found that little diamonds of wisdom would come from the most unlikely places - little things that pointed which way to go, things that would alter my perspective. I don't think my situation is that special, but it is rather unusual. I did something rather drastic to survive what happened.

But to start with - hello to all who remember me, and those I don't know - and I'm hoping it's as cosy here as it used to be

Cheers, Tinker / Sandy

Yeah Sandy, a lot of the old timers have moved on, and even the ones still here cheat on facebook and the like. ;)

I'll admit I'm a Facebooker, but it's harder finding an intelligent bunch there.

By the way, Bruce, my new name is Tinker. I don't use the S word at all any more (only used it here in case anyone remembered me).

Hi Tinker - I remember you. Sounds like you've properly been through the mill since you were last here.

Hi Tinker, welcome back!

What limey said.

hey now.

If you're after advice, it might be good to start with what series of events or situations hurt you. And why it's still a problem. You're Ok now?

welcome back

You don't need to go all the way back to your relationship with your mother, just what's happened since your last reentrance here.

Hi Tinker,
I remember you too. Welcome back!

Thank you all for the warm welcome back!

Once I was allowed to post a new thread, I did that, and rather than continue in two threads, I'll just post there if that's okay

Jump to 36 minutes.

Right at the end of this one, he seems to contradict what Tolle says. That you ARE your thoughts. Tolle says you're not.

The distinction is that Krishnamurti is saying that the concept of 'you' includes the thoughts. The observer then, is the 'not you'. Or the attention. And the attention is a universal thing. Not discreet to each individual. On that level we are all connected as though we were, each of us, eyeballs or portals or maybe filter is a better word.... All looking out at the world from the same head/mind /energy.

I think.

I'm not so sure about universal awareness. Maybe as an analogy.... But then, if it's the same... Like if we didn't have words... The same perception beneath/before our interpretation of incoming info.... Maybe that's the same in all of us? But does that mean it's one larger awareness seeing through us? No way to know as we are all individual.

He says that's what compassion and love are. That shared source.

Mind bending

I remember you, sandy :) I saw one of your old posts just a few weeks back and wondered about you