The Cellar - Are these people serious?

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Are these people serious?

Quote:

OXFORD, England (CNN) -- A coroner ruled on Friday that a British journalist who died in Iraq at the start of the war was unlawfully killed by American forces.

Terry Lloyd, a correspondent with the British TV network ITN , was killed outside Basra in southern Iraq in March 2003.

Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker said he'll be writing the director of public prosecutions to seek to bring the perpetrators to justice.

"Terry Lloyd died following a gunshot wound to the head. The evidence this bullet was fired by the Americans is overwhelming," Walker said.

The U.S. Depstment of Defense said its forces had followed proper rules of engagement.

Lebanese interpreter Hussein Osman also was killed in the ITN crew, and cameraman Fred Nerac remains missing. ITN cameraman Daniel Demoustier survived.

Lloyd -- who was aged 50 -- was shot in the back during U.S. and Iraqi crossfire and was apparently shot by U.S. forces when he was taken away in a minibus for treatment.

"There is no doubt that the minibus presented no threat to the American forces. There is no doubt it was an unlawful act of fire upon the minibus," Walker said.

There were statements from U.S. military officers about the incident, but the coroner said "it was and is essential they attend and it is not satisfactory to have their statements read in court."

In Washington, the Defense Department said a U.S. investigation "determined that U.S. forces followed the applicable rules of engagement."

"The Department of Defense has never deliberately targeted noncombatants, including journalists," the Pentagon said. "We have always gone to extreme measures to avoid civilian casualties and collateral damage."

Lloyd's family members denounced the action and want justice.

Chelsea Lloyd, Terry Lloyd's daughter, urged after the inquest that the soldiers and their commanding officers be brought to justice.

"They did not come to this inquest to explain their actions. Let them now do so in our criminal courts where they are guaranteed to get a fair trial."

She said the "value of the inquest has been demonstrated."

"Until now we were unaware that my father was able to stand and walk to a makeshift ambulance after being shot once by an Iraqi bullet. The man who stopped to help my father was an ordinary Iraqi whose intentions were to take him and other wounded to a nearby hospital.

"After helping my father into his minibus the evidence shows that the vehicle whilst driving the wounded away was fired on by U.S. forces, and that one bullet entered my father's head after passing through the vehicle, and it was this American bullet which killed him."

A statement read by an attorney for Lloyd's widow, Lynn, said the court established that the "circumstances of his death from an American bullet whilst being ferried to hospital is a very serious war crime" and that the Marines should now stand trial.

"The evidence of how Terry Lloyd was unlawfully killed has shown that this was not, I wish to stress, a friendly fire blue on blue incident or a crossfire incident. It was a despicable, deliberate, vengeful act, particularly as it came many minutes after the end of the initial exchanges in which Mr. Lloyd had been hit by an Iraqi bullet."

Her statement said "U.S. forces appeared to have allowed their soldiers to behave like trigger-happy cowboys in an area in which there were civilians traveling on a highway, both Iraqi and European."

I thought a coroner was a Doctor(usually) that examines a dead body to determine the cause of death. How in hell does the Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker, determine that the body was killed unlawfuly?

The deceased reporter was in the middle of a Iraq firefight and caught an Iraqi bullet, then was hustled into a van by an Iraqi and the van drew fire from the Marines. Well, duh, it's a war.....Wolf Blitzer aspirations don't give you immunity. This is horse hockey. :right:

It had been MINUTES! MINUTES, I tell you, since the last Iraqi shot was fired. I bet they knew the battle was over, and said "hey, here's a chance to murder an innocent civilian and get away with it! I'm not done killing yet, rat-tat-tat-tat-tat".

The family's grief must be overwhelming, but this is lawyers and politicians now.

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I thought a coroner was a Doctor(usually) that examines a dead body to determine the cause of death.

Not in this great state or perhaps my county. You campaign for office, with a little backing, I could be one. Great huh?

This page explains in details the role of the coroner in the UK, but the main information is below:

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Who are coroners?
Coroners are usually lawyers but in some cases they may be doctors. Coroners are independent judicial officers - this means that no-one else can tell them or direct them as to what they should do but they must follow the laws and regulations which apply. Each coroner has to have a deputy and between them they have to be available at all times. Coroners are helped by their officers, who receive the reports of deaths and make enquiries on behalf of the coroner. Some officers are full-time but in less densely populated parts of the country they are part-time and often work as policemen or policewomen the rest of the time. The cost of the coroners' service is met by local taxation.

What does the coroner do?
A coroner enquires into those deaths reported to him or her. It is his or her duty to find out the medical cause of the death, if it is not known, and to enquire about the cause of it if it was due to violence or otherwise appears to be unnatural.

I can only assume that in this case, where cause of death was established to be from an American bullet, and with the American soldiers present at the time of death refusing to answer questions, the coroner did not feel he was unable to bring any verdict other than unlawful killing.

Oh, ok...they aren't the ones that actually examine(cut up) the body over there. When a doctor thinks, somebody should look into this death, the coroner is the one that does it. That explains that.

So, the British coroner thinks the US Marines should show up for questioning in England for a shooting in a war zone, namely Iraq. Don't tell me he was surprised when they didn't show?

The daughter says

Quote:

"They did not come to this inquest to explain their actions. Let them now do so in our criminal courts where they are guaranteed to get a fair trial."

I don't think they could ever explain their actions to her satisfaction. Obviously her fathers death three years ago affected he deeply and I can understand that....but she's being an ass.:rolleyes:

What about the term "killed by friendly fire". Doesn't that apply to a person who was killed by their own (or allied) forces during a battle? It would basically be determined to have been a death occuring from being in the wrong place (war zone) at the wrong time (battle).

You get in the middle of a dog fight, something's gonna get bit...

Not sure friendly fire applies to reporters as it does combatants? :confused:

85 Journalists Killed in Iraq

By Year:
• 2006: 25
• 2005: 22
• 2004: 24
• 2003: 14

By Nationality:
• Iraqi: 64
• European: 11
• Other Arab countries: 3
• United States: 2
• All other countries: 5

By Gender:
• Men: 79
• Women: 6

By Circumstance:
• Murder: 49
• Crossfire or other acts of war: 36

Responsibility:
• Insurgent action: 59 (Includes crossfire, suicide bombings, and murders.)
• U.S. fire: 14 (CPJ has not found evidence to conclude that U.S. troops targeted journalists in these cases. While the cases are classified as crossfire, CPJ continues to investigate.)
• Iraqi armed forces, during U.S. invasion: 3 (All are crossfire or acts of war.)
• Iraqi armed forces, post-U.S. invasion: 1 (Crossfire)
• Source unconfirmed: 8

By Job:
• Photojournalists: 23 (Includes still photographers and camera operators.)
• Directors, reporters and editors: 49
• Producers: 7
• Technicians: 6

By Location:
• Anbar province (Fallujah, Ramadi): 6
• Nineveh province (Mosul): 11
• Baghdad province: 49
• Saleheddin province (Samara): 4
• Basrah province: 3
• Diyala province (Baqubah): 2
• Arbil province: 6
• Karbala province: 1
• Najaf province: 1
• Sulaymaniya province: 1
• Unclear: 1

By embedded status:
• Embedded: 6
• Non-Embedded or “unilateral”: 79

Type of news organization:
• Working for international news organization: 37
• Working for Iraqi news organization: 48

Highest death tolls among news organization:
• Iraq Media Network (includes Al-Iraqiya, its affiliates, and Sabah newspaper): 11
• Al-Arabiya: 6
• Al-Shaabiya: 5
• Reuters: 4
• Kurdistan TV 4

(WW2: 68 journalists killed)
(Vietnam: 66 journalists killed)

Who, or what, is CPJ :question:

I think it means "The Committee to Protect Journalists".

Thanks Crimson.... if that's true, I'd say from the numbers up there, they're not doing a very good job. Maybe they should call themselves the Committee to Count Bodies. :(

It's really not surprising the count is higher than past wars, being this war is so different from all others. Just the "suicide bombings, and murders" tally prove that.

Of course we're to blame, too. Our voracious appetite for "up to the minute", "eyewitness", reports, creates demand. Plus the media rewarding reporters that do dangerous things to provide those reports.

Bruce, sorry forgot to mention the source for the stats: CPJ.

News is an industry that sells.

Cool, thanks for the link. :)

While I know what it is supposed to mean, I always thought "friendly fire" was a contradiction in terms.

I mean, is a bullet that kills or maims you... "friendly"?

Sounds like something I may have heard from Steven Wright.

What I want to know is: How the heck do they know it was an AMERICAN bullet that killed him? According to the report, it "passed through his head". Therefore, I must assume that it continued on it's way. And how do they know it wasn't fired by an insurgent holding a weapon chambered for an American round? .30 caliber isn't that rare and if I remember correctly, amounts to 7.62 mm, a common AK cartridge.