Human Rights Watch and the demand for honest facts
 

The 48 page Human Rights Watch report is available at:
http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502.pdf
PA police and security forces killed in the line of their duty are classified as combatents. It makes boring or depressing reading as each of other 23 innocent civilian deaths are detailed.

95% killed were not combatants as Israel claims. Human Rights Watch (HRW) and Nightline both say that a massacre in the conventional sense of the word did not occur. However Nightline implies the 'massacre' instead occurred one victim at a time. From the HRW report:
HRW also found no evidence of mass graves as claimed earlier by Palestinian sources. Nightline also interviews Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers who claim emphatically and with total knowledge that civilians were not used as human shields. HWR and Nightline both claim that this crime was often used by Israeli soldiers.
HRW quotes a NY Times interview of Israeli soldiers:
Page 6 makes these demands on us:
Israel has already made all such recommendations impossible. HRW, in essence, has called for International troops in Israel to bring about peace. Clearly with Sharon in power, only international troops can bring about peace. The alternative path to peace is tens of deaths daily and equally, on both sides. Arafat's people desperately want international peace keepers. But again, Sharon and Likud are the obstinate and aggressor parties. HRW says that if the US provides weapons, then we have the obligation to verify those weapons are not being used in crimes against humanity. But George Jr demonstrates no backbone to perform this task.

What does Israel describe as a biased UN commission to investigate Jenin - as directed by Human Rights Watch? From The Economist of 4 May 2002:
Sound like a coverup? Nixon attempted a similar strategy with White House tapes. The difference. That crook had to answer to legal authorities - the Supreme Court. The Prime Minister of Israel, historically a mass murder, can conduct crimes with impudence since he is the only legal authority and since most Jews will not stand up for human rights and against this racist.

What and why those top level decisions were based upon is detailed in the next post.

What your local news services don't report: from The Economist of 4 May 2002:
Notice what Israel fears. Honest testimony by its own soldiers of its army's actions. International settlement of the conflict. International peace keepers. Each means that the current Likud government could be subject to international law - crimes against humanity - and that Israel could not annex the occupied territories. Both of these events are directly in opposition to real objectives of Likud in general, and of Sharon in particular. Currently, Israel answers to no one even though crimes against humanity have been commited either by Israeli soldiers or upon orders from their Likud government. Most important, Israel's extremists do not want their real objectives publicized - the annexation of occupied territories in direct violation of UN 242, 338, Oslo Accords, and Madrid peace conference.

These serious accusations require public airing and international investigation; all of which Likud extremists fear since currently they have carte blanc and a series of green lights from Washington. One of those HRW recommendations would eliminate those green lights.

'nuff said me thinks

I buy HRW's report, as I suggested a few days ago when tw wasn't buying it because it didn't make his case.

But since the UN runs Jenin, and it turned out to be a major center for terrorism, they really don't have a leg to stand on. If they wanted to send a team to investigate what was happening there, they really should have done it in March.

Oh yes, and one more thing. Let's not miss the bigger picture. Last night on 60 Minutes, the first segment was interviews with Israel's "refuseniks", 50 or so IDF soldiers who disagree with the current plan and who have left as consciencious objectors. In a free country, y'know, that's how you protest your government's actions. I'm not sure I agree with their argument but they sure have the right approach.

Then it struck me: if you're an Israeli, and you disagree with your government's approach, you're interviewed on the first segment of 60 Minutes. If you're a Palestinian, and you disagree with your government's approach, here's where you end up:

http://cellar.org/2002/strungup.jpg

The major center for regional terrorism is Likud in general and Sharon in particular. That is where the UN should have been investigating for mass murders in March - not in Jenin. The Intafada 2 is a creation of Ariel Sharon who advocated the murder of Rabin, who encouraged an Israeli extemist to murder 29 Palestinians - the first 'terrorist' attacker, and, as a 13 year old in Nightline's town meeting noted, who violated the Mosque in Jerusalem to intentionally create today's violence.

Human Rights Watch demands that the UN investigate Israel's crimes against humanity because some Israelis are guilty of serious war crimes. HRW says Israeli crimes definitely exist. Logic says that if one agrees with HRW, then he must criticize Israel - not the UN. Furthermore, using Undertoad's above quoted logic, the massacre at Srebenica also should never be investigated because the investigation should have occurred when Milsoevik was still in power. Reality - the UN investigation in Jenin should be ongoing - Sharon, the mass murder and those who praise him be damned.

Many right wing extermists are against justice. George Jr just unsigned the US "from the treaty establishing the International Criminal Court". Good news for war criminals such as mass murders still hiding in Serbia, Ariel Sharon (and his admirers), and Gaby & Dave - unknown Israeli soldiers specifically cited by the HRW report as illegally murdering a group of Palestinians only because they did not like the medical support brace they found under one girl's dress.

Anyone who says the UN has no right to investigate Jenin openly advocates mass murder and openly condones those who perform mass murder. The HRW report is consistent with Israeli atrocities accurately suspected here last April. If Undertoad agrees with the HRW report, then Undertoad would also be calling for numerous UN investigations of the Jenin massacre of 23+ innocent civilians. Ironically he claims to agree with the report but says the UN should not do what the report demands. Those are outright contradictions.

Until Ariel Sharon is diposed or murdered, the UN will never be permitted to discover the truth about Israeli Jenin murders of civilians cited by HRW. BTW, HRW uses that word specifically - "murder". HRW accuses Israeli soldiers of murder and therefore demands a UN investigation of Israeli actions. Israel fears the truth. Of course. Any country lead by a mass murdering liar and a party of extremists must fear the truth - be that Nazi Germany, Milosevik's Serbia, Saddam's Iraq, or Likud Israel.

What ever happened to an Israel that was once a proud, mostly honest, and decent nation? It was destroyed by Likud and Likudites.

I'm not sure who to turn to. If the authorities allow the development of a terrorist base of operations in the middle of a residential area... and the authorities are the UN... who can we report them to?

The most recent news out of Jenin: over the weekend they held a funeral procession through the streets of town. Only the "corpse" wasn't dead -- an Israeli drone caught the whole thing on tape, and offered the video to the world. Of the guy lying down and being covered, being picked up by the "pallbearers", being marched through town and getting up at the end of it all.

Are these the sorts whom HRW was interviewing? Or just the ones who'll be subpoena'd as witnesses in your international court?

Gee i don't know
while you're pointing fingers why don't you have a look at the jewish lobby here. Colin Rubenstein, in an article availiable http://www.aijac.org.au/media_releas...urcorners.html
falsely claims that witnesses were misled, and sperately claimed a high ranking human right and international war crimes judge currantly residing in South Africa claims he was midled, even after beign repeatedly corrected by the judge himself who has repeatedly stated he stands by ever word he said. He re-itterated this privately and public again after the publishing of the above document. Furthermore he continued to take his grievences public yet again in the age newspaper, once again claiming those interviewed were misled. He was rebutted by the abc - who aired teh program on its mediawatch program, in full detail - exposing him for the fraud he is.

Not to mention the refusal of the IDF to have any of their soldiers who operated in the recent west bank operations to take the witness stand in any investgation - what are they so afraid might just come out?

If the IRA was financed and armed mostly by Americans from North America, then is America a terrorist nation? To blame bomb making rooms on the UN is a conclusion based upon emotion - not upon world realities. These questions are strawmen to avoid the original point.

The reason for all this death and military destruction is just what the Prime Minister of Israel wants. Creating violence creates justification to annex the occupied territories and to perform ethnic cleansing. Whenever public support withers, then escalate. Escalation was Nixon's public opinion solution in VietNam. Falling public opinion and peace demonstrations in Israel explains why Sharon invaded the West Bank. We know, and major responsible news organizations have explicitly cited Sharon's objectives - the annexation of occupied territories - International law and Human Rights be damned.

It does not matter if every town and village on both sides produce bombs. Oh... wait. Both sides had been killing innocent civilians on the other side once Sharon successfully started Intafada 2. All is traceable to a corrupt mass murder who runs Israel - who saw to it that Israeli citizens and soldiers were killing Palestinians 10+ to 1. Bombs made in Jenin may have simply made peace more probable by equaling the death rates to something we all want to see - death ratios of 1 to 1. All deaths are directly traceable to the actions and objectives of Sharon who encourages Israeli civilians to shoot at Palestinians with little fear of legal prosecution. No one else is more responsible for the violence and the resulting tools of that violence than Sharon.

The UN was in charge of Jenin just as the US government was in charge of all those Americans who armed the IRA.

Now I am confused. The HRW report that Undertoad cited as accurate fact is now being refuted as unreliable? Why did opinion of that HRW report change once other critical details were cited - such as war crimes by Israeli soldiers and a demand for a UN investigation.

Good nations can be turned bad. America was the evil nation in VietNam. Israel also has been subverted by those who find massacres a normal part of life. No wonder Likud and other right wing supporters would fear a UN investigation of war crimes - just as those same types feared and therefore quashed the investigation into a My Lai massacre.

Honest people called for investigation into My Lai and into Jenin. Right wing extremists simply feared the truth - in both cases.

I didn't cite it as "accurate fact". It's a data point. It's information: here some fairly unbiased people went in and asked questions.

I'm sure some war crimes occurred. It's war; it's a messy process and both sides have clearly undertaken some wretched tactics. Both sides are immensely pissed off.

I'm not sure why you trust the UN to be a perfect animal when entire nations can "turn bad". The UN is more political than nations, not less, and in this case it clearly has its own interests to protect. Since their first shot at "investigation" was to send in dignitaries, and not military experts, isn't that kinda telling? I'm not sure why you think they would be good final arbiters of truth.

And you don't, anyway. After I reported here that the first UN envoy went in to survey what happened, and came out to say that it was disgusting and appalling but that there was no evidence of massacre, you continued to shout massacre. In fact, you continued to shout it after I'd seen the Palestinians themselves come up with a number of dead that was in line with everyone else's numbers.

I was going to point that out, but in your emotional reaction to the whole thing, it turns out that you've decided I'm hopelessly biased too.

The Palestinian claims were off by a power of ten. Now the claim is down to they ran over a guy in a wheelchair even though his chair had a white flag on it. Disgusting and appalling? Absolutely! But in the big picture, it's an individual shitty act perpetrated by a single murderous soldier. This stuff happens in time of war. It's relevant, but not "big picture"-relevant. Especially since the story relies on Israel taking seriously a convention of war (the white flag) when the terrorists have not only ignored but abused every convention of war. Nobody is playing by the rules.

And anyway, you need to catch up. The new Palestinian position on Jenin is that it was a Palestinian victory. They killed a lot of Jewish soldiers and really gave 'em the business.

It was a palastinian victory for PR reasons, nothing else.
Half the frigging male population is still in detention, the vague remins of an economy have been loted and pillaged, entire neighibourhoods destroyed, and sembelence of government and police anihilated in exchange for 20 odd soldiers?
interesting definition of victory. Too many more victories liek that and there won't be anything left. On the other hand its marginally safer to take the bus in Tel Aviv now, for about a fortnight.