Pakistan
 

We need a thread about Pakistan. There are probably some old ones, but they're dormant, so I thought I'd start a fresh one.

Why should we care about Pakistan?
Pakistan is probably more important than Iraq or Afghanistan. It's population exceeds the other two combined. They have nuclear weapons and an army that obeys the political government only when it feels like it. They have a history of political instability, corruption and violence. A significant portion of the country is not under the control of the central government, and in many cases, is held and run by Taliban-like Islamists. It's right next door to Afghanistan.

On the other hand, there are a lot of people who are very active in support of civil justice and rights, who will protest loudly sometimes effectively, and they do have elections from time to time. And I have a friend from there, and he is cool.

More recently, Pakistan was probably a staging point for the mass shootings in India, and saw a team of gunmen attack the visiting Sri Lankan cricket team. Very recently, a police academy in Lahore was stormed by a small group of fighters and held for about 8 hours.

This (Northern) spring is looking "interesting" in Afghanistan. It is expected that the coalition will step up efforts do drive their enemies out of the mountain strongholds. My worry is that this will simply drive them, at best, into other places in Afghanistan or, much worse, into Pakistan. This would destabilize Pakistan further. Do we interfere inside Pakistan?

So I thought I would start a thread about Pakistan, and we can update and discuss as things happen.

Fascinating place, Pakistan. As is Kashmir. Lot of Kashmiris in my borough.

Even more than India, Pakistan is contradiction incarnate. Their gender politics are bizarre. Outlying traditional villages might be marrying off their daughters at 9, but the middle class Pakistani women are a completely different kettle of fish.

Great thread. And an important issue. I think we need to be very careful in our intervention in Pakistan. We are pushing the issue already with the missle attacks in the un-governed areas along the border, but I believe that is an acceptable risk. You really can't discuss Pakistan with out discussing Afghanistan in the issue. The ISI has supported the Taliban for years. And the problem most people have is separating the Taliban from al-Qaida. And it seems like the government, first Bush, now Obama, have no interest in ensuring that the public understand the difference. As you stated pouring more US troops into Afghanistan and increasing operations there has the potential for creating more problems in Pakistan, an already fragile government. I fear that Afghanistan will become a bigger quagmire than Iraq ever was, and so far history has proven that notion to be correct.

For some light reading on the subject and from a historical position there are some good reads here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/fs/search...words=Pakistan

I saw an interview with Jehan Al Sadat with Rachel Maddow last week. She was married to Egyptian president Anwar Sadat. She spoke about Pakistan. According to her, almost all the middle eastern terrorist groups work out of Pakistan. She believes peace is possible though. Egypt was the first Muslim country to sign a peace treaty with Israel, and it is still in effect to this day. You can catch the interview here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#29905028

I believe Pakistan is more important than Afghanistan for the stability of the region, but it is hard to separate those two countries when we talk about this. Clearly we will need to work in concert with the government of Pakistan. We cannot afford a war with them. We will never win over the people of those countries though if just continue to occupy the countries over there. That was their beef with us in the first place (well one of them anyway). We need to rethink our strageties.

I was dismayed when Obama announced he would be sending more troops to Afghanistan. Since we ARE planning on spending money there to build things though, I reeeeally hope they use the local population for as many jobs as they are qualified for, because that would go a long way toward creating good will. If we just bring in Americans, that won't help.

Same goes for Pakistan. I think a lot of the people don't support al qaeda or the Taliban, but they don't support us either, so they are choosing the (to them) lesser of two evils when they support terrorist or extremist groups. In order to turn that around, we need to be their partners, not their dictators.

Pakistan will most likely be, if not is, a failed state soon. Once that happens, Pakistan will need to be the number one priority in the region.

No no, he's a terrorist... kill him now. :haha:

The radical Islamists that are trying to minimize, if not usurp, the elected government of Pakistan derives major funding from the afghan poppy crops. They operate like the mafia making it impossible for the Afghan peasants to survive without growing poppies for the Taliban.

The central Afghan government has never controlled the country, because the power belongs to the tribal chiefs who have never bowed to the Afghan government or any foreign government.

If General Petraeus is given the tools and support, I believe his counter insurgency tactics of providing security for the peasants and doling out authority to tribal chiefs that help, can gain the cooperation of the Afghan people in defeating the Taliban and depriving them of that major funding.

I feel this is the best way to help the moderate Pakistanis regain and retain control of their country

Maybe WE could start paying farmers for the poppy growing. We do it with other countries. That is where a lot of our painkillers come from.

I thought we do...

At least pay for the final product.

The answer's been staring us in the face. The USA needs to become a producer of poppies and exporter of heroin. That'd fuck the Afghan poppy trade once and for all.

We do with other countries, but I don't believe we do in Afghanistan. I could be wrong though.

Cannot happen. The farmers are too busy screwing the oil producing nations by growing ethanol.

Worse, he's a post-modernist. I tried to argue some sense into him, but failed.

I like your lateral thinking. Australia grows some poppies, maybe we could expand.
And the USA could take the pressure of Mexico et al by becoming self-sufficient in cocaine.
To hell with energy security, food security, how about some DRUG security???

yea Zen, we are on the verge of a serious drug war here because of Mexican drug cartel violence spilling over into the border states. We have been so worried about Iraq for the past 6 years we have completely ignored our own borders. Yet another reason why I think all drugs should be legalized and controlled, except for plants, which should just be legal, because they're, you know, plants.

Even the Opium poppy?

But instead we have a poppy thread. :haha: