11/26: Honduras prevents voting fraud
 

http://cellar.org/pictures/redfinger.jpg

In Honduras they just had an election, and this is how they prevent people from voting more than once: you dip your finger in red dye.

This low-tech solution is probably fool-proof for their citizens. I'm sure we could all imagine various ways around this, but it's far better than the methods we use in the US of A. My wife works as the local inspector of elections, and you know how they prove you've not voted before? They ask for your name, and verify your signature against the signature they have on file. That's all!

I think Honduras has a better idea.

     So every voting Honduran walks around with a red finger for a few day's? Wow, can you imagine the imense number of jokes they must have on the subject?

it has the secondary benefit of showing everyone who voted and who didn't!

It's kind of funny, Americans don't seem to have a problem with all the new "anti-terrorism" laws (some of which are blatantly unconstitutional) but I bet they'd throw a fit if the government wanted to color their thumb red for a few days...

An optional system of ID verification and protection gets those who fear all government up in a tizzy. But when 5,000 Arabs are held up to months in jail for no crimes, without a lawyer, and without even a hearing, then those 'tizzys' are silent. Arabs held by such meaures is unconstitutional. But those who most cite their constitutional rights are silent when Arab constitutional rights are openly violated? Maybe they fear that if we protect someone elses constitutional rights, then they personally might be at greater risk? IOW the thinking is self-centered?

When the extermist right wing Attorney-general intentionally subverts the will of citizens in Oregon (because it goes against his own religious beliefs), those same people and their equivalent, left wing extremist liberals go silent (thread entitled 'Where is Dr Kevorkian'). Amazing how those far from the center are really only intestested in rights and protection from government when they feel threatened - others be damned.

Those truly interested more in America than in their own little worlds would be howling at the illegal imprisionment of 5,000 Arabs and at Ashcroft's decrees. But since Ashcroft represents their own political views, the silence really indicates their true interests and political beliefs.

tw -

not to challenge, but i'm curious where you got the 5,000 number from. i've been reading closer to 1,100-1,200 detained/arrested, but all who have broken federal laws (mostly immigration offenses).

if they're being mistreated though, count me in for writing letters to congressmen and whatnot. and if you like, we could work on a letter together to post here for people to send to their representatives - make sure to hit all the important points and word it diplomatically, etc.

just curious where you got that information though - it's contrary to what i've been reading.

--dave

If you ask me, being held in jail for commiting no crime IS being mistreated. As for being outraged, I personally haven't really heard of this before. I would certainly be against it if it were true.

OTOH, I feel kinda powerless. There's not much I can do about anything that goes wrong in this country except write a letter to my congressman. And if you ask me, that amounts to no more than begging a person in power to make a decision a certain way, when in the end they were just going to follow their own beliefs anyway. Example: Should i write letters to George Bush pleading that he change his stance on cloning research? Yeah right! Like he's going to change his opinion for me.

I'd love to be wrong though.

Right now we can't do much. Our goverment rep's completely ignored the outcry against the 'Anti-terrorism bill' and there was one wether you heard it or not. Just remeber this next election. That's when you can do something.

JuJu,
MOST of thoses have committed a crime, but not convicted - they commited immigration crimes - aka they are in the country illegally - now I won't say if immigration laws are right/wrong, but they have commited a crime as the law stands. That's why they are called "Illegal Aliens"

With the discontent in this thread, who'd support me if I led a secession from the country?

Come on, don't be shy.

~Mike

NOT a good idea right now. :)

If you want ot bitch about this actaully answer my post over a week ago on the thread about this or quit complaining.


Britan's very similar knee-jerk reaction in the 80s with similar laws created the worst falldowns of the jusitce system ever.

I miswrote the sentence. It should have said that 5,000 were being detained for questioning but many had been held for up to two months. The 1,000 number is a generally accepted but is only an estimate since most have not been arraigned (as best we know) and many cannot even get hold of a lawyer. Many have been moved repeatedly so that we don't know where they are being held. We do know that one man died in prison after being held for over 1 month without ever seeing a lawyer and without ever having been arraigned - according to, if I remember, NPR. The only reason he was discovered in prison was because he died.

I can appreciate why this is being done, but also understand that the 'powers that be' - Ashcroft - have no appreciation just of the damage that is being created. Ahh but this right wing extremist religious conservative knows these people can't and won't vote against him.

This is a classic case of government denying rights to a minority - nothing new about that. But a public who knows it is happening and says nothing. It is the silence I find disturbing.

BTW, since I first posted this, I understand many in Congress also started asking these same questions that most Americans are not (but that the press is asking). If these 1000 are guilty of crimes, then why are they not at least arraigned of those crimes. I can't remember the exact law, but I though it was illegal to be held more than 48 hours without a court hearing. What happened to that law?

As for immigration violations - the Immigration procedure should be put on trial. I once reviewed forms required to renew a Visa. The nouns throughout a single page of instructions changed so often that those instructions were unreadable. Immigrants pay lawyers $hundreds just to fill out basic application forms because those forms are so confusing.

Imagine having to renew a Visa, but the application asked for your formal name, proper name, name on a proof of purchase, and your ordinary name - all meant to ask for the same name on the passport. And if your application has just one error, then it will be held separate until someone has time to let you know that it has a problem. Where is this processed? In some office way up in upper NY state near the VT border. In the meantime, you have now overstayed your Visa and are subject to arrest. If you don't have big bucks for a lawyer to fill out an application form, then you become a criminal.

I tried to get further information on the form from the web site, but they say to read the paper instructiions that come with the form. Ironic since most other forms are on the internet with additional information. Why is this form so complicated? These people don't vote - but the immigration lawyers do.

I'm definitely not a fan of Ashcroft, though I did vote for Bush. Just wish his idea of an Attorney General was a bit better. My dad feels differently. I hope I don't have to tell him "I told you so" in 3 years.

Anyway. I hadn't heard about the death in prison, but I do remember reading a report that all those who were detained were able to talk to their lawyers. Or rather, were not denied access to lawyers. Whether or not that access was made easy, I'm not sure.

I think a lot of Americans are too busy pumping gas into their fuel-guzzling SUV's to think about the implications of what's happening right now and whether or not it's being enacted fairly. To be sure, the vast majority of terrorists that are going to be involved in this (and were involved in it) are of Arab descent. But that doesn't mean we should have rounded up the Japanese like we did some ~60 years ago.

Unfortunately, things like this are never black and white.

Aww...

~mike

Secession? Come to NH or VT...
 

Prior to 9/11, there were (at least) two towns in New Hampshire that were talking about seceeding from the state because of taxation issues (what else...). Nobody, was talking seriously about secession from the US, and it is fairly obvious that the other 49 states won't allow a new state with 30000 people (I'm being generous) to have two senators and a rep. The other alternative would be to join either MA or ME, where taxation is far worse (that is fact, not an opinion).

In other news, I've been told that there was a VT legislator that introduced a bill in the VT legislature every year to secede from the union. Can anyone verify this?