You're either a citizen or you're not

[richlevy]

It seems that due to some fraud among a few lay midwives in border areas, the Feds are challenging the birth certificates of citizens when it comes to applying for passports. They are not, however, challenging their citizenship when it comes to anything else, like voting.

From here.

So, because a passport is not a right, but some kind of luxury, the government can deny it without having any burden of proof.

Personally, I think if the government is not willing to go to court and accuse someone of not being a citizen, it should issue the f***ing passport. It's pretty stupid to punish someone for not being born in a hospital. Note that the government is challenging birth certificates from all lay midwives, not just those that are suspected of fraud.

[TheMercenary]

Eh, I see your point but after having worked in a couple of areas near the Southern border I can tell you that we (taxpayers) pay for a lot of illegal prego women who come here for only one reason, to have babies and make the kids legal so they can live off the government. It really is pretty sad. I think if we started to charge their home countries the cost of their care things might tighten up a little.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Eh, I see your point but after having worked in a couple of areas near the Southern border I can tell you that we (taxpayers) pay for a lot of illegal prego women who come here for only one reason, to have babies and make the kids legal so they can live off the government. It really is pretty sad. I think if we started to charge their home countries the cost of their care things might tighten up a little.

If the kid is born here, that kid is constitutionally a legal American citizen (amendment XIV, clause 1), whether the parent(s) are legal or not. So we ARE the kid's home country. Not that I'm advocating we pay for anything/everything.

[classicman]

We know that TGRR. That's his point.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by classicman

We know that TGRR. That's his point.

What, that the kid's home country is America?

[classicman]

Yes and thats why they come here 8.9 moths pregnant.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by classicman

Yes and thats why they come here 8.9 moths pregnant.

That makes precisely zero (0) difference, as far as the kid is concerned. Amendment XIV has no requirements as to where the kid is conceived.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That was Rich's point, if they are born here they should get a passport. Possibly they've discovered a business of phony midwife papers.

But since the constitution, more accurately the courts, say anchor babies have to be given citizenship, the answer is to stop the 8.5 month pregnant alien from entering illegally.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That was Rich's point, if they are born here they should get a passport.

Oh, sure. I agree with that.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Possibly they've discovered a business of phony midwife papers.

According to the OP, they've found one (1).

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

But since the constitution, more accurately the courts, say anchor babies have to be given citizenship, the answer is to stop the 8.5 month pregnant alien from entering illegally.

Exactly. Precisely.

Now, tell me that either of the two major parties are going to get right on that. Go on, tell me.

[Shawnee123]

Who will calculate that?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Of course not, too much money involved. But at least they are practicing on Canada so they'll be ready if it's forced upon them.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by TGRR

That makes precisely zero (0) difference, as far as the kid is concerned. Amendment XIV has no requirements as to where the kid is conceived.

Perhaps you missed my suggestion in another thread to build ta friggin wall/fence whatever to keep the illegals out. I even offered to build a nice lil birthing place on the other side of the border so that the children could be born in relative safety in Mexico. Not only does this keep illegals out and the costs associated with them, but it offers those jobs the illegals would have been taking, for legal residents.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Even more reason.

(CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico) — Gunmen killed a police officer and a jail guard Friday and left signs on their bodies saying they had fulfilled a promise to slay at least one officer every 48 hours until the Ciudad Juarez police chief resigns.

If they lived next door to you wouldn't you lock your door?

[sugarpop]

From Lou Dobbs on CNN: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...19/ldt.01.html

Well, joining me now with more on the threat of Mexico's drug cartels pose to this country is El Paso mayor, John Cook, and his city is on the front lines of the border drug wars. We have CNN military analyst, General David Grange who joins us, and Professor George Grayson from the College of William and Mary.

Gentlemen, with this range of expertise we will make some progress on this.

Let me start with you, General Grange. Earlier this month, secretary of Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano was talking about the prospect of a fence or wall on the U.S./Mexican border. Let's listen to what she had to say first, for just a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET NAPOLITANO, HOMELAND SECURITY SECY: At some places fence or wall. But, I would -- would not advise the Congress that to simply build a fence or wall or whatever you want to call it, between the U.S. and Mexico is going to stop illegal immigration or drug trafficking...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PILGRIM: You know, General Grange, I come to you first because, really, it's clear that a new sort of strategy is needed. Should the Department of Homeland Security -- what should they do to deal with border violence? Should we have some sort of surge approach to this?

BRIG GEN DAVID GRANGE (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I believe it's a national security issue. If you look at the national military security -- military security for the United States, the protection of the homeland is the No. 1 priority. And I believe this -- conditions exist where law enforcement agencies, National Guard, even the citizenry of the United States should not have to put up with this security challenge.

This is a -- we're not providing a safe and secure environment for our people. And so a fence, a wall would be part of it, but it has to be in depth, it has to be efforts in depth to handle the threat. PILGRIM: Certainly does.

Mayor Cook, I would like to turn to you. El Paso, how safe is it really? And I understand that your city council recently voted on a resolution to debate the merits of legalizing drugs. You vetoed that. Tell us what it's like in El Paso.

MAYOR JOHN COOK, EL PASO, TX: Well, you know, the issue of the veto and the debate about whether or not we should lift the prohibition against narcotics I think distorts the fact of the border wall. You have to remember the suggestion of the wall came up before all the violence did and it was actually supposed to stem illegal immigration, that's how the whole conversation began in the first place.

PILGRIM: But, how do you feel about the drug trafficking? Certainly this is a very serious issue for this country?

COOK: Well, you know, drug trafficking, you have to look at the two sides of the equation. One is supply and the other is demand. The United States is definitely on the demand side, Mexico is on the supply side. I think what you see with all the violence happening right now is a direct impact from President Calderon finally putting his foot down on the drug dealers and on the cartels that control the passageways and the trade routes.

And for our council to suggest that we do exactly what the drug cartels would like us to do, which is step away from the argument and make it a legal trade, I think is a step backwards for us.

PILGRIM: Mayor Cook, do you think more should be done on our side of the border?

COOK: Well, we definitely need to look at issues like gun smuggling which goes into Mexico right now, money laundering, which happens in the United States, and the money is sent back into Mexico. We definitely have to clamp down on those.

The place to hurt the drug dealers is two places: No. 1, interrupt their supply and No. 2, interrupt the cash that's coming back to them. And until we adopt that approach, then we're never going to win this war.

PILGRIM: Professor Grayson, you've spent so many years on this topic. Tell us what you think about the criminal gangs in the Mexican Gulf cartel that we're seeing this enormous surge of violence that we're seeing, potentially because of the crackdown, but still very hard to take when you're near this.

PROF GEORGE GRAYSON, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM & MARY: Kitty, there are more gangs, they're more dangerous, they're involved in more activities and they're now going after military officers, retired and on active duty, to show that they can act with impunity.

And so, I think it's important to have a wall at the border, recognizing that's not a panacea, but it is at least one step that we can take to try to slow the influx of both illegal aliens and also the flow of narcotics.

PILGRIM: You know, I really would like to bring up a comment that the outgoing CIA director, Michael Hayden, said recently. And there was a report put out that for U.S. Security, only second to al Qaeda, Mexico poses a huge threat and I'd like to actually read from this report.

Mexico is one of two countries, Pakistan is the second, that bear consideration for rapid and sudden collapse and the report says, "in terms of worse case scenarios for the joint force and indeed for the world, two large and important states bear consideration for rapid and sudden collapse: Pakistan and Mexico -- and any dissent by Mexico into chaos would demand an American response based on serious implications for homeland security alone."

Now, General Grange, this report is absolutely chilling. What should be the U.S. response to this?

GRANGE: Well, I think this really wakes us all up. I mean, the constitution of the United States talks about "we, the people," providing for a common defense. I mean, that's a mission, that's something that all people of the United States ought to think about and care about.

You know, what is need here, if the president of Mexico is going to do what he's doing to try to stem it on his side, we got to do it in concert with him, everything we can, using private and public sector, using a whole nation approach bringing everything we can to bear to stop this . and I'm not talking about just guns and kinetic means (ph), I'm talking about even soft power, Information operations.

You know, it's pretty tough to tell Pakistan not to let people infiltrate into Afghanistan or be on the North Korean/South Korean border where tunnels come under the country, to, wow, look at this, this is something. What about our own border? Why do we allow that in the United States of America, which is our primary defense requirements? It amazes me and I think we ought to do something about it.

PILGRIM: Mayor Cook, when you read something like that, about a collapse, a catastrophic collapse, what does that mean for El Paso? Does that not worry you?

COOK: Well, first of all, I don't think we're bordering on catastrophic collapse. Barry McCaffrey, I think, would disagree with that. But, what he does suggest is that we have bilateral negotiations with the country of Mexico and work with them as equal partners and at the same time respect their sovereignty.

And I think we probably need to put more money than is put in that we put into Mexico, right now. Their army and police force are not equipped the same way that the drug dealers are, so I think supplying them equipment, training of their police force, those are some things that we can definitely help with. But, we have to, at the same time, respect their sovereignty and they have to ask us to do these things, we can't force them.

PILGRIM: Gentlemen, we have to hold it there. A very important topic, we've barely touched on it. George Grayson, Mayor John Cook and General David Grange, thank you.


ummm, so Mayor Cook thinks we need to give Mexico money to fight the drug trafficers in Mexico? WTF is it our responsibility to supply money and training to Mexico now? Good grief! And we need to respect their sovereignty? Why? Because they respect OURS so much? god this shit pisses me off!

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by classicman

Perhaps you missed my suggestion in another thread to build ta friggin wall/fence whatever to keep the illegals out. I even offered to build a nice lil birthing place on the other side of the border so that the children could be born in relative safety in Mexico. Not only does this keep illegals out and the costs associated with them, but it offers those jobs the illegals would have been taking, for legal residents.

Perhaps you missed reality, you know, where neither major party nor their owners has any interest in doing anything of the kind.