Incest

[Aliantha]

I noticed a tagline down the bottom of the page under the tip jar and this is what it said:

Incest is a voluntary act on the woman's part.
--Charles Rice, Professor of Law, Notre Dame University, in a pamphlet published by the American Life League

Here the quote is illuminated slightly:

Arguing that "Incest is a voluntary act on a woman's part," former Notre Dame University law professor Charles Rice opposed abortion in cases of rape and incest, reinforcing blame of the victim and the notion of pregnancy as punishment of females. Yet another doctrinaire Bush judicial nominee and former head of Arkansas Right to Life, James Leon Holmes opposes abortion for rape victims: "...the concern for rape victims is a red herring because conceptions from rape occur with the same frequency as snow in Miami". This apocryphal notion has long circulated within right-to-life circles, expressed in right-to-life denial literature: "Medically we know pregnancy in these cases [incest or rape] would be rare if not impossible" because "fear prevents ovulation...only when the female is consenting does pregnancy occur."

When I first saw this quote I figured there must be some logical explanation for the wording. Turns out I was wrong. Or rather, the logic used to support this claim is so devoid of compassion or understanding it's staggering.

[piercehawkeye45]

Someone isn't sexist...

[aimeecc]

Although I will agree that the majority of abortions performed are not rape or incest victims, the pro-life cause is really hampered by idiots who make statements like this.

Their counter argument should be "a life is life, regardless of the means of conception" and not, essentially, the woman asked to be/wanted to be raped. If their logic is essentially this sexist in nature, it calls into question their cause and their true desire behind the cause.

Years ago (and I'm sure its still floating around) the pro-life side tried the approach that NOW and planned parenthood focused on African Americans, and were trying to eliminate the African American population, and therefore the African American community should unite under the pro-life banner to keep from being exterminated. That approach didn't win over anyone that I know of.

Like any group with a cause, it has normal people and nut cases. The media tend to focus in on the nut cases.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well, if she ain't good enough fer her own family, she ain't good enough fer ours.

[piercehawkeye45]

33% of pregnancies result in miscarriages. A life is a life, right?

1 in 3 women should be in jail for murder by that logic...

[aimeecc]

Following the logic trail... A life is a life, and 1/3 of pregnancies result in miscarriages. But what was the cause of miscarriage? Due to mother's negligence? Or other? Mostly, other. Therefore, no criminal charges.

If a driver slides on an icy road and hits a pedestrian and kills him/her, its not manslaughter. Unless the driver had been drinking or traveling at excessive speeds, than it depends on how good of a lawyer he gets. Might be manslaughter, might be nothing. If there was no ice, and the driver was drunk and speeding and killed the pedestrian, its murder. Unless its his doctors fault for prescibing the wrong meds or not prescribing meds or because his boss is a jerk.

Pregnant woman, fetus with severe abnormality, she miscarries. Not homicide. Same woman, same fetus, but she smokes and drinks while pregnant. What caused the abnormalities... but a case like this won't ever be tried even if we say 'a life is a life' - too hard to prove cause of abnormalities or intent to harm. Pregnant woman throws herself down a flight of stairs to kill fetus and miscarries... pro-choicers state it was because abortions weren't free of charge or not enough clinics nearby. Woman becomes poster girl for pro-choice movement, makes made-for-tv movie about her tragic life.

Man kills pregnant girlfriend, gets charged with her murder, and depending on the state, the murder of the fetus.

I just thank God I've never been in the position to have to make a difficult decision like many women face each day. I am truly blessed with my husband and son.

I was raised pro-life. I was raised by parents who participated in Operation Rescue. I participated in Operation Rescue before it became illegal for minors to participate (if minors participate now, parents go to jail). At nine years old I was the representative child for my birth year on the state capitol steps on the Roe v Wade anniversary protest. I know the pro-life side. I don't disagree with it, although for a while I defined myself as pro-life in my personal life but pro-choice for America (meaning I wouldn't do it but I wouldn't judge or stop anyone else from doing it). I'm pro-life, but its not a cause that I contribute to (time or money) nor a cause that I vote in line with. I have friends that have had abortions. It doesn't bother me - it wasn't my decision to make. I think idiots (to put it lightly) like the ones quoted do extreme harm for the cause and aren't worthy to have their words put on paper. I doubt Roe v Wade will ever be overturned. I think its a waste of time and money on both sides for late term abortion fight. Really, how many women run out at 8 months pregnant to have an abortion? Not many, and most will be because of extreme circumstances.

[Shawnee123]

What is Operation Rescue? Do they actually adopt the babies?

[aimeecc]

Wish it were so, but babies have no problem being adopted anyway.

Operation Rescue are the militant anti abortionists. They've toned it down some what. Mostly because of new laws. They used to block entrances to abortion clinics, chain themselves to the doors, get in the face of everyone entering the clinic. Find out where the doctors live, go to their homes and protest there, put the doctors faces on posters with murderer written over the face. Horrible signs with aborted fetuses. "You're going to hell for aborting your baby" folks. Some of the true extremists (the ones that blow up abortion clinics) start out in Operation Rescue.

[aimeecc]

I should state most Operation Rescue offices have staff to counsel mothers in need and have relationships with organizations that help with adoption, or with the cost of having the baby. I forget the name of the organization where I lived, but there was a home for young single mothers-to-be (and just had baby) to live and be cared for in a safe environment.

My sister got kicked out of home at 16. She graduated high school, got pregnant, got dumped. Lived in the home for about a year while she got her life together. She thought about giving Samantha up for adoption but decided she just couldn't do that. Staff supported her with whatever decisoin she choose. Samantha's a crazy teenager today, but not as wild as my sister. Thank God!

[Shawnee123]

That home sounds wonderful. Glad your sis found it and it worked out for her.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by aimeecc

Following the logic trail... A life is a life, and 1/3 of pregnancies result in miscarriages. But what was the cause of miscarriage? Due to mother's negligence? Or other? Mostly, other. Therefore, no criminal charges.

I said that to make a point but I am going to defend it the other way.

Most miscarriages happen because there is risk to the mother or the baby itself so the body will naturally abort the baby to avoid complications. You can make the argument that most abortions happen because the baby is an economic, mental, and physical risk to the woman and to prevent the consequences that come with that, abortion should be legal.

If you stick with the "a life is a life" argument, you have to consider miscarriages and you can not just hide behind the excuse of "accidental death" because the body purposely aborts it. Since the body will purposely abort the baby if it will cause physical harm to the mother, it is reasonable to abort the baby if it will cause economic or mental harm to the mother. In my opinion, to put one ahead of the other is very ignorant and hypocritical. To regulate whether a baby will actually cause harm to a mother is inefficient and a very big violation of privacy, so we would have to make all abortions legal.

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Most miscarriages happen because there is risk to the mother or the baby itself so the body will naturally abort the baby to avoid complications. ...
If you stick with the "a life is a life" argument, you have to consider miscarriages and you can not just hide behind the excuse of "accidental death" because the body purposely aborts it. Since the body will purposely abort the baby if it will cause physical harm to the mother, it is reasonable to abort the baby if it will cause economic or mental harm to the mother.

I would argue that the body miscarries not because the fetus will cause harm to the mother, but because the fetus isn't viable. It is most likely severely deformed in one way or another. Economic harm can be mitigated by giving the child up for adoption, and mental duress can be addressed with therapy.

Abortions aren't legal because of economic or mental harm the pregnancy/baby might cause. Its because the Supreme Court decided laws against abortion were a violation of privacy. Nothing in there about harm to the mother.

Don't misread me. I'm not lobbying Congress to change the laws or sending my money to fanatical groups.

[DanaC]

I would argue that the body miscarries not because the fetus will cause harm to the mother, but because the fetus isn't viable

In some cases. In other cases it's to do with hormonal conditions within the woman's body creating an inhospitable envrionment, rather than a non viable foetus.

[aimeecc]

True. Or the uterus isn't strong enough and starts to detach.

My son had to be induced a month early because my blood pressure sky rocketed and my liver started to fail. Luckily he was born healthy with few complications, besides mom and dad not quite being ready.

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

That home sounds wonderful. Glad your sis found it and it worked out for her.

I hope others find the help they need as well. At the time, my sister and I couldn't stand each other. I blamed her for our parents divorce - 'if she hadn't been a troubled teen, they would have worked out' mentality that was wrong of me to have. It wasn't her fault, and the divorce was decades in the making. I've regretted being so hard on her and not being there for her. But that was years ago, we were just stupid kids with no good role models for normal behavior. We're the best of friends today. Her daughter is half like her (the wild streak) and half like me (nose in a book). Its funny. At one point in time Samantha told me she thought I was her mother and I gave her to my sister to raise since we had so much in common and look a lot alike. lol.