Another war thread

Undertoad · 01-31-2003, 04:02 PM

You know what the real problem is with the Iraq situation? The real problem is that Hussein is going to get clobbered, but he doesn't understand by how much.

On C-Span on Wednesday, they showed a taped meeting between Hussein and his misitary commanders. They were all optimistic. One told of how well his sniper unit had performed against Iran, and that they had only gotten better since. There was mention of trench warfare.

Hussein said that the US avoids direct military contact and prefers to take potshots from far away. He was full of vigor; he expects the war to begin soon, and he expects it to go well for him.

He has no clue. Why: because he's surrounded himself with "yes men" who will tell him what they think he wants to hear, because you don't bring bad news to the president.

Under such a circumstance, typical diplomacy is impossible, because diplomacy requires both sides to understand all the consequences. Hussein will only understand the might of the US millitary when he is either shot in the head by a henchman or lying under the rubble of one of his presidential palaces.

Y'know, Michael Jackson has the same problem. He probably wouldn't look that way if one person in his clique had the nerve to tell him the bad news in the 80s. "Yo, Mike, it ain't workin' for ya... you're starting to look like a freak and people are starting to talk." But most of the harm was done, it appears, after Off The Wall and Thriller when Mike was so big that he sneezed money... I'm sure anyone close to that gravy train wanted to stay on the guy's good side.

elSicomoro · 01-31-2003, 10:41 PM

While I have no doubt that the US will lay the 187 beatdown upon Iraq, I find that the real problem with the Iraq situation is...how will the US being a member of OPEC affect oil prices? Will they be the 900-pound gorilla of that organization, too?

I think Hussein does, or rather did, have people saying, "Yo, I don't think this is such a good idea." They're probably buried under those presidential palaces...maybe they're even part of the facade.

Off the Wall and Thriller...what great pop albums! Quincy Jones is nothing short of being a motherfucking genius, and Michael Jackson was a profoundly gifted individual at that time in his life.

tw · 01-31-2003, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
You know what the real problem is with the Iraq situation? The real problem is that Hussein is going to get clobbered, but he doesn't understand by how much.

For some reason, there is a silly idea that Iraqis hate Saddam. The reverse is more the truth. Listen carefully to what Rather and Jennings both noted. Even given oppurtunity to make comments safely from Saddam's security people, Iraqis rarely displayed dislike of Saddam. Same as Castro. No matter what they tell you in America, Castro is loved by most Cubans. There is only the George Jr rhetoric that implies Iraqis hate Saddam. Who would you believe? Geroge Jr?

One noted guns observed in so many homes. They were not for hunting game. A street by street invasion of Iraqi cities will not be a cake walk. Finding Saddam will be even harder.

So why should Saddam fear anything. 'Baby Doc' Duvalier retired from Haiti to S of France. US military even transported him. Idi (Bitty) Amin retired quite nicely to Saudia Arabia. Mladic is said to be living just fine in Kosovo even though on SFOR's most wanted list. Karadzic is also on that list but living unmolested in Serbia. Thanks to the US, there is no international court of justice to prosecute Saddam or Sharon for crimes against humanity.

Saddam has plenty of options. He could probably live just fine in the Baghdad underground. History does not support the inevitable siutation that UT speculates.

Even Osama is surrounded by his enemies and walks right past them unmolested.

elSicomoro · 01-31-2003, 11:21 PM

My understanding is that Iraqis can only access news from outside Iraq by radio/shortwave (and pray that they don't get caught). Given that, I can understand why there would be great praise for him from his people. Not to mention, he actually did some good for Iraq, in terms of modernizing the country.

(I highly recommend you all turn your TVs on to the Discovery Channel right now. They've been doing shows about Saddam and Iraq this evening...interesting stuff.)

If the exile deal comes to fruition, I'm sure he will have a very nice life walking the streets of Riyadh, Cairo, Amman...or Toronto.

jaguar · 02-01-2003, 10:52 AM

Greetings from Ho Chi Minh city =)

Ut your arguement is flawed because you made the assumption that Saddam releases real videos to the outside world. I'm mean for crying out loud, like they're going to release a vid of Saddam making escape perperations and release it to the media. Unless C-Span planted the camera, which somehow i doubt, the chances are this was stuff for a local TV station, it's propaganda. Saddam is not fucking stupid people, wake up. He has half the forces he had at the time of the gulf war and he lost then, i'm sure he knows if it comes to war, he'll lose.

Although i'll give you point for the msot creative excuse to bomb Iraq - surrouding yourself with yes-men. At that rate half of corperate america is gonna be under rubble soon.

Undertoad · 02-01-2003, 01:16 PM

Sure it's propaganda, but we have nothing else to go on.

And if Saddam knows he'll lose, he's not acting like it, is he?

Today's NYT: "In two days of interviews [in Saddam City], there was no outward suggestion — not the subtlest arch of an eyebrow — of anything other than complete unanimity in support of Mr. Hussein."

The NYT doesn't figure it, but what conditions would lead to such unanimous support?

elSicomoro · 02-01-2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
Greetings from Ho Chi Minh city

"Oh-wee-oh! Ho Chi Minh!"--from Good Morning Vietnam

What exactly are you doing in SE Asia again, Señor Ocelot?

wolf · 02-01-2003, 01:49 PM

he appears to be touring the communist people's paradise.

elSicomoro · 02-01-2003, 01:59 PM

Malaysia isn't communist though (federal/constitutional monarchy hybrid).

02-01-2003, 02:27 PM

Er, he's not in Malaysia.

elSicomoro · 02-01-2003, 02:36 PM

I misread Wolf's post as referring to multiple countries. My apologies. He was in Malaysia earlier this week.

jaguar · 02-01-2003, 08:20 PM

I was in Malaysia a few days ago, now i'm in Ho Chi Minh city, in a few days time i'll be in Cambodia, the a day or so after that i'm back in Vietnam to fly to Malaysia, a few days after that i'll be in Singapore, a few days after that i'll be in Malaysia again.....
Business. Except for Vietnam/Cambodia, that's a holiday. Might go to China while i'm here, always wanted to, we'll see. It's interesting to note since i was last here(vietnam) all the limits on web access have been lifted (except for speed), even MSN/ICQ work now.

Malaysia is a virtual dictatorship/republic, quite a strict muslim state. As i said on another thread, the Iraqi flags iv'e seen flying out of windows say a lot. Vietnam is the most capitalist communist state in the world, everyone is selling something. If they're under 25 and attractive it's very often themselves *sighs*. Sin city hasen't changed....

You know, propaganda, even when other evidence is not availaible is a pretty poor basis for any kind of analysis.

Undertoad · 02-01-2003, 09:57 PM

And you without a digital camera to share all this!

elSicomoro · 02-01-2003, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
I was in Malaysia a few days ago, now i'm in Ho Chi Minh city, in a few days time i'll be in Cambodia, the a day or so after that i'm back in Vietnam to fly to Malaysia, a few days after that i'll be in Singapore, a few days after that i'll be in Malaysia again.....
Business. Except for Vietnam/Cambodia, that's a holiday.

"It's a holiday in Cambodia
It's tough kid, but it's life
It's a holiday in Cambodia
Don't forget to pack a wife"

--Dead Kennedys

Business, eh? Do tell.

jaguar · 02-01-2003, 10:26 PM

I'm buying one on my way back though Singapore, thinking a Nikon coolpix 4300(go nicely with the APB12" i'm picking up there too

, seem to have good reviews and be a nice camera all round (if anyone can reccomend something below SGD1000 - go for it(US~6-700(everything in singapore is cheaper hardware wise)), but yea i'm stuck without one of my own until then. Which is a pity becase there is some great stuff to be seen here and in Cambodia, Malaysia is far more boring. Some time i'll have to scan some pics from angkor wat i took last time i was there, beautiful place.

Few of the guys here have them though so i'll probably post a few pics at some time, the road traffic alone is astounding if you've never seen it before. Kind of surreal to see communist propaganda at street corners too. Since it's tet (Chinese New Year) it's all pretty chaiotic, friend got some great pics when we went to one of the pagodas yesterday. If anyone is interested i can start posting a few things in the entertainment forum or something.

Business is of an undisclosed nature

Mostly just meeting people, organising things, picking up some samples etcetc

01-31-2003, 04:02 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Another war thread You know what the real problem is with the Iraq situation? The real problem is that Hussein is going to get clobbered, but he doesn't understand by how much. On C-Span on Wednesday, they showed a taped meeting between Hussein and his misitary commanders. They were all optimistic. One told of how well his sniper unit had performed against Iran, and that they had only gotten better since. There was mention of trench warfare. Hussein said that the US avoids direct military contact and prefers to take potshots from far away. He was full of vigor; he expects the war to begin soon, and he expects it to go well for him. He has no clue. Why: because he's surrounded himself with "yes men" who will tell him what they think he wants to hear, because you don't bring bad news to the president. Under such a circumstance, typical diplomacy is impossible, because diplomacy requires both sides to understand all the consequences. Hussein will only understand the might of the US millitary when he is either shot in the head by a henchman or lying under the rubble of one of his presidential palaces. Y'know, Michael Jackson has the same problem. He probably wouldn't look that way if one person in his clique had the nerve to tell him the bad news in the 80s. "Yo, Mike, it ain't workin' for ya... you're starting to look like a freak and people are starting to talk." But most of the harm was done, it appears, after Off The Wall and Thriller when Mike was so big that he sneezed money... I'm sure anyone close to that gravy train wanted to stay on the guy's good side.

02-01-2003, 10:52 AM	#5
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Greetings from Ho Chi Minh city =) Ut your arguement is flawed because you made the assumption that Saddam releases real videos to the outside world. I'm mean for crying out loud, like they're going to release a vid of Saddam making escape perperations and release it to the media. Unless C-Span planted the camera, which somehow i doubt, the chances are this was stuff for a local TV station, it's propaganda. Saddam is not fucking stupid people, wake up. He has half the forces he had at the time of the gulf war and he lost then, i'm sure he knows if it comes to war, he'll lose. Although i'll give you point for the msot creative excuse to bomb Iraq - surrouding yourself with yes-men. At that rate half of corperate america is gonna be under rubble soon. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 02-01-2003 at 11:02 AM.

02-01-2003, 01:49 PM	#8
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	he appears to be touring the communist people's paradise. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

02-01-2003, 08:20 PM	#12
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I was in Malaysia a few days ago, now i'm in Ho Chi Minh city, in a few days time i'll be in Cambodia, the a day or so after that i'm back in Vietnam to fly to Malaysia, a few days after that i'll be in Singapore, a few days after that i'll be in Malaysia again..... Business. Except for Vietnam/Cambodia, that's a holiday. Might go to China while i'm here, always wanted to, we'll see. It's interesting to note since i was last here(vietnam) all the limits on web access have been lifted (except for speed), even MSN/ICQ work now. Malaysia is a virtual dictatorship/republic, quite a strict muslim state. As i said on another thread, the Iraqi flags iv'e seen flying out of windows say a lot. Vietnam is the most capitalist communist state in the world, everyone is selling something. If they're under 25 and attractive it's very often themselves sighs. Sin city hasen't changed.... You know, propaganda, even when other evidence is not availaible is a pretty poor basis for any kind of analysis. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 02-01-2003 at 08:23 PM.

02-01-2003, 10:26 PM	#15
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I'm buying one on my way back though Singapore, thinking a Nikon coolpix 4300(go nicely with the APB12" i'm picking up there too , seem to have good reviews and be a nice camera all round (if anyone can reccomend something below SGD1000 - go for it(US~6-700(everything in singapore is cheaper hardware wise)), but yea i'm stuck without one of my own until then. Which is a pity becase there is some great stuff to be seen here and in Cambodia, Malaysia is far more boring. Some time i'll have to scan some pics from angkor wat i took last time i was there, beautiful place. Few of the guys here have them though so i'll probably post a few pics at some time, the road traffic alone is astounding if you've never seen it before. Kind of surreal to see communist propaganda at street corners too. Since it's tet (Chinese New Year) it's all pretty chaiotic, friend got some great pics when we went to one of the pagodas yesterday. If anyone is interested i can start posting a few things in the entertainment forum or something. Business is of an undisclosed nature Mostly just meeting people, organising things, picking up some samples etcetc __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

01-31-2003, 10:41 PM	#2
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	While I have no doubt that the US will lay the 187 beatdown upon Iraq, I find that the real problem with the Iraq situation is...how will the US being a member of OPEC affect oil prices? Will they be the 900-pound gorilla of that organization, too? I think Hussein does, or rather did, have people saying, "Yo, I don't think this is such a good idea." They're probably buried under those presidential palaces...maybe they're even part of the facade. Off the Wall and Thriller...what great pop albums! Quincy Jones is nothing short of being a motherfucking genius, and Michael Jackson was a profoundly gifted individual at that time in his life.

01-31-2003, 11:21 PM	#4
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	My understanding is that Iraqis can only access news from outside Iraq by radio/shortwave (and pray that they don't get caught). Given that, I can understand why there would be great praise for him from his people. Not to mention, he actually did some good for Iraq, in terms of modernizing the country. (I highly recommend you all turn your TVs on to the Discovery Channel right now. They've been doing shows about Saddam and Iraq this evening...interesting stuff.) If the exile deal comes to fruition, I'm sure he will have a very nice life walking the streets of Riyadh, Cairo, Amman...or Toronto.

02-01-2003, 01:16 PM	#6
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Sure it's propaganda, but we have nothing else to go on. And if Saddam knows he'll lose, he's not acting like it, is he? Today's NYT: "In two days of interviews [in Saddam City], there was no outward suggestion — not the subtlest arch of an eyebrow — of anything other than complete unanimity in support of Mr. Hussein." The NYT doesn't figure it, but what conditions would lead to such unanimous support?

02-01-2003, 01:59 PM	#9
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Malaysia isn't communist though (federal/constitutional monarchy hybrid).

02-01-2003, 02:27 PM	#10
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Er, he's not in Malaysia.

02-01-2003, 02:36 PM	#11
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	I misread Wolf's post as referring to multiple countries. My apologies. He was in Malaysia earlier this week.

02-01-2003, 09:57 PM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	And you without a digital camera to share all this!

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