Problems with the open source community

Razorfish · 12-01-2003, 11:23 PM

This comes via Slashdot:

http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38073.htm

Linux no doubt has a much steeper learning curve than Windows but this guy makes it out to be more than it really is. Install and configuration is not nearly as clean as Windows but its certainly nothing to be scared of (I'm no Linux guru but I manage fine). But the article does make some good points about Linux not being up to speed (in a development sense) as Windows.

[list=1][*]There are a few too many distributions out there. Takes a lot of research and even trial and error to know which is the best.[*]Applications that run without the need to be compiled or edited would be a good thing.[*]Microsoft made patching and searching for updates quite easy. Checking version dependencies on any distribution of linux can still a big pain.[*]Geeks can often be hostile.[/list=1]

Like I said before I'm no Linux guru nor do I write and contribute open source software to the movement but I still notice things. Anyone else have thoughts or opinions? If I sound like I'm talking out of my ass I apologize. My Linux experience is sumed up by my adequate programming background and just under a year of tinkerning in Linux. But I really like what I've seen and take note of areas that need improvement.

juju · 12-02-2003, 12:46 AM

Nothing can really be done about the first point. That's just the nature of open source.

As to points two and three, Debian's apt-get has served me wonderfully in that capacity for quite some time! There is even a similar program for RPM now, which is what Redhat and Mandrake both use.

SteveDallas · 12-02-2003, 08:31 AM

I notice you didn't address #4 juju!!

juju · 12-02-2003, 11:08 AM

Yeah, I just couldn't think of anything to say.

Is it really even true? Or is the author just thinking of certain subcommunities within the open source community? That's mostly why I can't say anything. For example, Linux geeks here on the Cellar have traditionally been very friendly and helpful.

hot_pastrami · 12-02-2003, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
Is it really even true? Or is the author just thinking of certain subcommunities within the open source community? That's mostly why I can't say anything. For example, Linux geeks here on the Cellar have traditionally been very friendly and helpful.

Read the Slashdot user comments when a Linux or Microsoft story is posted, and you'll see it. Well, on second thought, don't read Slashdot comments, it's not worth it. Take his word for it.

tikat · 12-04-2003, 05:39 PM

I remember asking stupid questions about DOS and Windows when I was a kid. Some of the experts were friendly, helpful and inexplicably patient; others were hostile and hateful. The best of them pointed me towards good books instead of answering.

I think the range of responses is a human phenomenon rather than an 'open source', 'geek' or 'Linux' phenomenon. The same range probably occurs in other fields.

Edit: P.S. to H.P.: Yes, the SlashDot forums are a pit of shame and despair. You could probably fit the other Ultima dungeons in there, too.

juju · 12-05-2003, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hot_pastrami
Read the Slashdot user comments when a Linux or Microsoft story is posted, and you'll see it. Well, on second thought, don't read Slashdot comments, it's not worth it. Take his word for it.

Yes, but Slashdot isn't the open-source community. They are a subcommunity within that larger community. They're not representative of the majority, I don't think.

I think that 95% of the intelligent, reasonable, and nice people left Slashdot a long time ago.

Uryoces · 12-05-2003, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
I think that 95% of the intelligent, reasonable, and nice people left Slashdot a long time ago.

I'm just there for the pictures, man. You have to set the filters to +2 to get above the static.

I was commenting that Linux needs some set of standards for a desktop. That's kind of tough, because there is such variety, and that's definitely a good thing. I think there needs to be some standard in the way the interface works for a desktop system. The system is going to need to be workable by someone who has just logged onto the Linux dekstop for the first time.

This isn't to say that other development shouldn't stop. In fact, the http://www.freedesktop.org/ site is devoted to providing some set of standards to allow interoperability between everyone, most notably, but not exclusively, Gnome and KDE.

This is just going to get better.

hot_pastrami · 12-05-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju
I think that 95% of the intelligent, reasonable, and nice people left Slashdot a long time ago.

Oh really? Well, why don't you go back to Redmond, you Bill-Gates-hugging, closed-source, Microsoft lover!

Yes, the once nifty Slashdot now houses many more trolls than people. Oh well.

russotto · 12-05-2003, 10:43 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Uryoces
[b]I'm just there for the pictures, man. You have to set the filters to +2 to get above the static.
[b][quote]

The only picture I've seen on Slashdot is http://www.goatse.cx
(Warning: not safe for anything)

mbpark · 12-06-2003, 04:20 AM

Hello,

Any community where you have to prove your worth for using Linux by proving you know all these Linux tasks, before people will even help you, is a bad thing.

I said fark it, and went to BSD. People are much nicer, and you don't get the sanctimonious pricks like you do on Slashdot.

It was cool. Now it's the place to go to prove you have l33t linux skillz.

I have work to get done, and no time for idiocy or grandstanding about stuff

. Google suits my needs much better now. So does Metalink

.

Mitch

Torrere · 12-24-2003, 01:44 PM

<hostile geek>Has this guy used Debian? Has he heard the magic word "Knoppix"?
</hostile geek>

I seriously believe that Windows is only considered easier to install because it comes pre-installed and you don't have to install it.

It may be easier to install applications on Windows; but even there I'm not sure when it's compared to Debian apt-get. You still have to find and download or search and buy to install applications on Windows.

Windows, as far as I know, is a long ways away from the ease of "sudo apt-get upgrade".

I've known of several groups that are very kind in answering my questions about Linux. There was a LUG back in Sandpoint that helped me with a few questions, I've had the benefit of having several friends who installed Linux before me, and most of the people that I've found online have been nice.

Finally.. anyone and everyone (or at least every group) can often be hostile.

mbpark · 12-24-2003, 02:11 PM

Windows, like Linux, does have distributions that each OEM customizes for their hardware. They even do it for servers. You don't have to think to put up a desktop or server running Windows 2000, XP, or Server 2003 if you have an OEM machine.

I know Dell, IBM, and HP/Compaq do this. That's a good chunk of the PC market there. Heck, my ThinkPad came with a CD that puts all the apps on it except Office. Drivers, too.

Apple can do this, because they have so little hardware to deal with. Panther does this well.

Most users don't want to deal with that. They want to stick the CD in and have their applications. Linux is a long way from there. It's much further ahead than it was in 1999.

Lindows, as unpopular as it is with the Slashdot crowd because it opens up Linux to non-l33t people, is taking Linux where it needs to be for increasing the user base by providing a UI and support for it that doesn't involve arrogant pricks, newsgroups, or Google. Two words: Mplayer FAQ.

However, as I said before, I use computers to use them, not to take part in a political movement, so I stick with what works

.

You can talk all you want about it being ready for the home desktop, or you can see what Lindows is doing to put it there.

Mitch

12-01-2003, 11:23 PM	#1
Razorfish Superhero Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: New England Posts: 104	Problems with the open source community This comes via Slashdot: http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38073.htm Linux no doubt has a much steeper learning curve than Windows but this guy makes it out to be more than it really is. Install and configuration is not nearly as clean as Windows but its certainly nothing to be scared of (I'm no Linux guru but I manage fine). But the article does make some good points about Linux not being up to speed (in a development sense) as Windows. [list=1][]There are a few too many distributions out there. Takes a lot of research and even trial and error to know which is the best.[]Applications that run without the need to be compiled or edited would be a good thing.[]Microsoft made patching and searching for updates quite easy. Checking version dependencies on any distribution of linux can still a big pain.[]Geeks can often be hostile.[/list=1] Like I said before I'm no Linux guru nor do I write and contribute open source software to the movement but I still notice things. Anyone else have thoughts or opinions? If I sound like I'm talking out of my ass I apologize. My Linux experience is sumed up by my adequate programming background and just under a year of tinkerning in Linux. But I really like what I've seen and take note of areas that need improvement. __________________ Mostly lurking

12-04-2003, 05:39 PM	#6
tikat Paramour of Paradigm Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 42	I remember asking stupid questions about DOS and Windows when I was a kid. Some of the experts were friendly, helpful and inexplicably patient; others were hostile and hateful. The best of them pointed me towards good books instead of answering. I think the range of responses is a human phenomenon rather than an 'open source', 'geek' or 'Linux' phenomenon. The same range probably occurs in other fields. Edit: P.S. to H.P.: Yes, the SlashDot forums are a pit of shame and despair. You could probably fit the other Ultima dungeons in there, too. Last edited by tikat; 12-04-2003 at 05:41 PM.

12-06-2003, 04:20 AM	#11
mbpark Lecturer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 761	Slashdot Hello, Any community where you have to prove your worth for using Linux by proving you know all these Linux tasks, before people will even help you, is a bad thing. I said fark it, and went to BSD. People are much nicer, and you don't get the sanctimonious pricks like you do on Slashdot. It was cool. Now it's the place to go to prove you have l33t linux skillz. I have work to get done, and no time for idiocy or grandstanding about stuff . Google suits my needs much better now. So does Metalink . Mitch

12-24-2003, 02:11 PM	#13
mbpark Lecturer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 761	Here's where it's different Windows, like Linux, does have distributions that each OEM customizes for their hardware. They even do it for servers. You don't have to think to put up a desktop or server running Windows 2000, XP, or Server 2003 if you have an OEM machine. I know Dell, IBM, and HP/Compaq do this. That's a good chunk of the PC market there. Heck, my ThinkPad came with a CD that puts all the apps on it except Office. Drivers, too. Apple can do this, because they have so little hardware to deal with. Panther does this well. Most users don't want to deal with that. They want to stick the CD in and have their applications. Linux is a long way from there. It's much further ahead than it was in 1999. Lindows, as unpopular as it is with the Slashdot crowd because it opens up Linux to non-l33t people, is taking Linux where it needs to be for increasing the user base by providing a UI and support for it that doesn't involve arrogant pricks, newsgroups, or Google. Two words: Mplayer FAQ. However, as I said before, I use computers to use them, not to take part in a political movement, so I stick with what works . You can talk all you want about it being ready for the home desktop, or you can see what Lindows is doing to put it there. Mitch

12-02-2003, 12:46 AM	#2
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Nothing can really be done about the first point. That's just the nature of open source. As to points two and three, Debian's apt-get has served me wonderfully in that capacity for quite some time! There is even a similar program for RPM now, which is what Redhat and Mandrake both use.

12-02-2003, 08:31 AM	#3
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	I notice you didn't address #4 juju!!

12-02-2003, 11:08 AM	#4
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Yeah, I just couldn't think of anything to say. Is it really even true? Or is the author just thinking of certain subcommunities within the open source community? That's mostly why I can't say anything. For example, Linux geeks here on the Cellar have traditionally been very friendly and helpful.

12-05-2003, 10:43 AM	#10
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	[quote]Originally posted by Uryoces [b]I'm just there for the pictures, man. You have to set the filters to +2 to get above the static. [b][quote] The only picture I've seen on Slashdot is http://www.goatse.cx (Warning: not safe for anything)

12-24-2003, 01:44 PM	#12
Torrere a real smartass Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,121	<hostile geek>Has this guy used Debian? Has he heard the magic word "Knoppix"? </hostile geek> I seriously believe that Windows is only considered easier to install because it comes pre-installed and you don't have to install it. It may be easier to install applications on Windows; but even there I'm not sure when it's compared to Debian apt-get. You still have to find and download or search and buy to install applications on Windows. Windows, as far as I know, is a long ways away from the ease of "sudo apt-get upgrade". I've known of several groups that are very kind in answering my questions about Linux. There was a LUG back in Sandpoint that helped me with a few questions, I've had the benefit of having several friends who installed Linux before me, and most of the people that I've found online have been nice. Finally.. anyone and everyone (or at least every group) can often be hostile.

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