2/7: Man vs tank

[Undertoad]

I think the caption for this picture ought to be, simply, "Balls".

[tw]

Sharon is probably already blaming the kid for his own death. Leaders do just that - in the tradition of Hilter and Idi Amin - blame the victim.

[adamzion]

Originally posted by tw
Sharon is probably already blaming the kid for his own death. Leaders do just that - in the tradition of Hilter and Idi Amin - blame the victim.

Actually, the people to blame are those in the PLO leadership who are actively encouraging parents to send their children out as martyrs, and encouraging the children- in the official PA textbooks used in schools- to sacrifice their lives in the jihad against the Jews.

The world's far more complicated than you believe, tw,
Z

[tw]

Originally posted by adamzion
Actually, the people to blame are those in the PLO leadership who are actively encouraging parents to send their children out as martyrs, and encouraging the children- in the official PA textbooks used in schools- to sacrifice their lives in the jihad against the Jews.

The world's far more complicated than you believe, tw,
Z

Actually, I hoped that Adam would not worship the fucking scum bag, shit faced, cunt licking, anti everyone else extremist - oh - he is now credible because fools elected him president?

Adam, you have never read these words from me concerning anyone else. I never use them anyplace and condemn their use except in extreme situations. Anyone who does not advocate his butt fuck is simply an enemy of the world. If you were reading international news sources and listening to responsible fact sources, then you know that many of those Palestinian kids are only throwing rocks and doing so against the wishes of their parents. The BBC alone made this fact obvious. The violence is directly traceable to a Hilter type who continues to do everything to destroy peace for his own self serving profit. Racist does not even describe this scum bag.

Adam will also forget that hundreds of Arabs are murdered for but a few Jews. That Arab land is routinely taken even in violation of Isreali laws. That the Isreali Supreme Coutr, in defending those people's rights, was all but gutted. Yes, even 20% who are Arab Israelis are murder murder victims by extremists rhetoric that Adam refuses to admit. Adam, you are advocating more genocide by opening praising that mother fucker. I wish the English language had words strong enough to describe that turd Ariel Sharon. However I will demonstrate in Current Events how evil this man is - using historical facts. Facts? How quick the protectors of that religous right extremist forget facts. The current Isreali President all but pulled the trigger that murdered Rabin. Did we forget that? Why? Because it is convenient to blame the Palestinians instead?

I blame Adam Zion far more than any Palestinian for Middle East deaths because he refuses to face the real world AND he blames victims AND he loves a Hilter act-alike called "rape everyone else Ariel Sharon".

[elSicomoro]

[quote]Originally posted by adamzion

Originally posted by tw
Actually, the people to blame are those in the PLO leadership who are actively encouraging parents to send their children out as martyrs, and encouraging the children- in the official PA textbooks used in schools- to sacrifice their lives in the jihad against the Jews.

The world's far more complicated than you believe, tw,

This may offend any Jews or Arabs on here, but we're all adults.

The Israelies and Arabs are acting like little children..."it's ours, no it's ours..." The two entities will have to come to terms with it sooner or later...neither side will get exactly what they want. Hopefully they'll realize it before they kill each other off.

And quite frankly, the amount of money that we give Israel, a "first-world" country, is pathetic.

[tw]

Originally posted by sycamore
And quite frankly, the amount of money that we give Israel, a "first-world" country, is pathetic.

Last time I looked, more than 50% of American foreign aid goes to Israel and Egypt. Almost all US foreign aid goes to five countries. Israel is #1 on the US list of foreign aid dollar amounts.

[adamzion]

Originally posted by tw
<snip ramble>
I blame Adam Zion far more than any Palestinian for Middle East deaths because he refuses to face the real world AND he blames victims AND he loves a Hilter act-alike called "rape everyone else Ariel Sharon".
[/b]

OK, tw, since you obviously understand me better than I understand myself, please allow me to explain a few things:

1) I am <b>not</b> a fan of Ariel Sharon. Never have been, and never will be. No amount of you claiming otherwise will change that.

2) I previously posted a rather long collection of facts regarding the background of the current conflict in Israel. I will not do so again, but invite you to see them yourself at the site http://www.facts4peace.com/ .

3) The government of Ehud Barak offered 95% of the West Bank, virtually all of the Gaza Strip, and half of Jerusalem- the Israeli capital city- to the PA in part of a peace deal. To put this in context, imagine if the US ceded back to the various Native American tribes 95% of the land in the United States, plus 50% of Washington, DC as their capital. Sound good? Remember: we all live in a country which was taken, lock stock and barrel, from indigenous peoples, peoples who had had dominion here for <b>far</b> longer than the Arabs had dominion over Israel.

People in glass houses, etc.,
Z

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by adamzion
OK, tw, since you obviously understand me better than I understand myself, please allow me to explain a few things:

2) I previously posted a rather long collection of facts regarding the background of the current conflict in Israel. I will not do so again, but invite you to see them yourself at the site http://www.facts4peace.com/ .

It's an interesting site, Adam. My main complaint is that no sources are presented other than the Bible (which is a book of faith, and not really a history book) on the facts page. Not to mention, the site doesn't mention how much aid the State of Israel receives from this country.

3) The government of Ehud Barak offered 95% of the West Bank, virtually all of the Gaza Strip, and half of Jerusalem- the Israeli capital city- to the PA in part of a peace deal. To put this in context, imagine if the US ceded back to the various Native American tribes 95% of the land in the United States, plus 50% of Washington, DC as their capital. Sound good? Remember: we all live in a country which was taken, lock stock and barrel, from indigenous peoples, peoples who had had dominion here for <b>far</b> longer than the Arabs had dominion over Israel.

Yeah...gimme my land back!

(And give my fiance her 40 acres and a mule.)

[tw]

Originally posted by adamzion
3) The government of Ehud Barak offered 95% of the West Bank, virtually all of the Gaza Strip, and half of Jerusalem- the Israeli capital city- to the PA in part of a peace deal. To put this in context, imagine if the US ceded back to the various Native American tribes 95% of the land in the United States, plus 50% of Washington, DC as their capital. Sound good? Remember: we all live in a country which was taken, lock stock and barrel, from indigenous peoples, peoples who had had dominion here for <b>far</b> longer than the Arabs had dominion over Israel.

People in glass houses, etc.,

Half truths again. You forgot the reason why the deal was not closed. Barak did not want to finalize any details even though the Palestinians were ready to do so - with written proposals in hand at the table! Since previous deals were not ironclad, then Israel extremists gutted them - undermining parts of every deal on technicalities. Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - fool be me. Even Palestinians understand that - which is why Arafat could not agree to incomplete agreements.

Look at all the Arab lands that were confiscated around Jerusalem despite Oslo accords that were suppose to protect those lands. Accords signed by the Israeli government but did not include ironclad details. Look at all the West Bank settlements built only to make a finalized peace agreement impossible and in violation of previous agreements - as The Ecomomist magazine **bluntly** points out (but you forget to mention); and built in direct violation of UN Resolution 242 and the Oslo accords.

Of course Barak had good reason to avoid finalizing the details. Barak needed manuevering room because too many Jews so hate all other people as to not condemn that fuck head Ariel Sharon (see the long, disgusting history of this genocidal maniac in the Current Events section). A finalized deal was politically impossible in a country so full of religious extremist zealot types - a country where honest people will not stand up to religious hate-mongers who dominate the Orthodox ranks and government. I don't hear honest Jews demanding, for example, that rabbis be removed from government. Americans who don't condemn those extremists only help make an honest peace settlement impossible. Even the Israel Supreme court was gutted when it tried to stop genocidal attitudes. Why do you not mention that history? Conveniently forgotten is WHY the deal could not be signed.

In fact, Adam, I did not hear you apologize for your countrymen's love of a genocidal enemy of all people - Ariel Sharon. Sharon - a man who makes honest men of both McCarthy (the anti-communist) and Nixon.

I did not hear you endorse UN Resolution 242. Do you conveniently and repeatedly forget to reputiate 242? IOW, like Ted Koppel, I repeat the question because you do not answer it. Do you condemn Sharon or just 'never' support him? Do you condemn or support UN Resolution 242?

[adamzion]

I give up, tw. Obviously, you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean, and save all the poor, put-upon gentiles of the world the trouble we cause. Hell, maybe we should all just arm the PA and let them shoot Israeli soldiers (oh, that's right- we did precisely that).

Guess what: we ain't going anywhere. I suspect that the mere fact of Israel's continued existance in the world is a thorn in the side of all the bigots who wish that Hitler had finished what he started. He didn't, we're still here, and we're not going anywhere. And d'you know something else? We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis. They all tried to kill us, and they all failed. So will Arafat and company.

Deal with it,
Z

[tw]

Originally posted by adamzion
I give up, tw. Obviously, you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean, and save all the poor, put-upon gentiles of the world the trouble we cause. ...

Guess what: we ain't going anywhere. I suspect that the mere fact of Israel's continued existance in the world is a thorn in the side of all the bigots who wish that Hitler had finished what he started. He didn't, we're still here, and we're not going anywhere. And d'you know something else? We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis. They all tried to kill us, and they all failed. So will Arafat and company.

Deal with it,
Z

"Compared with Jewish Israelis, Arab Israelis are discriminated against in almost every way. Their municipalities get less money, their education is poorer, their unemployment rate far higher, and it is virtually impossible fo r them to by land, nearly all of which is government owned."

In 1960 America, Jews were some of the first to rally support against racism. Ironically, today racism is exercised daily against 20% of Israeli citizens and against millions from an occupied country. How ironic that a people once victims of hate crimes now routinely do same against all others. Whereas the US Supreme Court rallies to the defense of the victims; the Israeli Supreme Court is gutted while trying to do same. Is that not what Hilter did to his government? How ironic that when confronted, facts are not denied but the messenger is accused of racism. Go figure. Is Adam secretly a Likud extremist or do even moderate Jews deny these facts by using half truth reasonings?

Expartiot Jews propagandize half-truths (http://www.facts4peace.com). 47 Israelis died in the past four months. But many were those discriminated Arabs and other non-Jew citizens - people murdered by Israelis and not by Palestinians? Futhermore, the entire scorecard is also forgotten. 47 vs 360 Palestinians. Who is doing all the killing? Who started this intifada? Extremist Jews - and now maybe even moderate Jews. Even moderate Jews are only telling half-truths. Even worse, moderate expatriot Jews cannot even mention, let alone acknowledge, UN Resolution 242 - the only basis for Middle East peace.

This silence from extremist Jews is expected - they want and practice ethnic cleansing - especially in the West Bank and in direct violation of all laws. But when even moderate Jews cannot mention UN 242, then the situation is that scary.

" ... listen to half a dozen Gazan famers, sitting quietly in a lunar landscape of destruction, as they tell their story. Their citrus fields, olive and almond groves, and greenhouses of fruit and begetables were razed to the ground, supposedly because they were in the vicintiy of a raod that a handful of Jewish settlers [people who are there in violation of UN 242 and the Oslo accords) might use. But hat distressed these farmers, even more than the uncompensated loss of property, was that the rain had at last fallen and thery wrer forbidden to sow their wheat." Again The Economist all but says it - ethnic cleansing. Why are these facts not provided from those who have ties to this region (Adam)? Why instead am **I** accused of racism? Why indeed did the Israelis elect a mass murder?

What else will I be accused of? Even scarier is that Adam does not admit to supporting enemies of the world - motherfucking Sharon, et al. If he accused me of being anti-Israeli, then imagine how demented and entrenched domestic Israeli Jewish thinking is today.

Israel now routinely violates the Fundamental Declaration of Human Rights in some belief that "We'll still be around when the US is a mere entry in a history book. We outlasted the Babylonians, we outlasted the Romans, and we outlasted the Nazis." A philosophy often preached by those who claim to be a Master Race. How's that to put a chill in your back. With such thinking, then peace is all but impossible. Historically, sometimes thousand, maybe millions had to die to eliminate such dangerous thinking. Scary.

Serbia's Milosevik made same claims. He insisted that Serbians were victims of hate and racism - while they murdered Croations, Bosnians, and Albanians. When whole truths are revealed, then criminals claim to be victims of racism. Does it just apply to the Balkans? No. I am afraid you can even read it in the Cellar. Suddenly **I** who have praised great people such as Golda Meyer, Begin, and Yitzhak Rabin am instead accused of racism. Why? Because I identify that who would demean and tarnish such great names. That turd is Ariel Sharon - and the many who support his ethnic cleansing, his invasion of another nation - and god knows what else.

Would America elect as president a mass murder; an ethnic cleanser; a man who all but murdered a previous president? It better not happen. America would then be the enemy of all good people. Yet Israel did just that. A patriotic Jew should be loudly crying serious warnings. Even moderate Jew, exposed to heavy pressures in a cross-examination grilling, demonstrates appreciation for the policies of anti-humanity Ariel Sharon. When faced with fact, instead, accuse the messenger. "... you would far prefer it if all us annoying kikes were to get up and jump in the ocean,...". No Adam. I wish you would respect the traditions of great Jews instead of supporting those who act in the tradition of Milosevik and Hitler. Unfortunately, even under pressure, UN Resolution 242 is all but denied AND the policies of a scum bag Ariel Sharon are endorsed - blame everyone else.

"For the first time for many years, Israelis are murmuring about the possibility of a wider war. There is nothing solid to these murmurs. But people recollect Mr Sharon's supposed grand strategy behind Israel's invasion of Lebanon: the Palestinians would be forced out, they would turn turn Jordan into a Plestinian state, and Isreael would be off the hook." - The Economist again tells us what American Jews will not. If Sharon had his way, then Israel could openly deny UN Resolution 242. Currently even moderate Jews, as demonstrated here, pretend that UN 242 does not exist.

UN 242 is the only foundation for Middle East peace. When confronted with that fact, then **I** am accused of racism! If Adam is so quick to resort to emotion (because he cannot defend against the facts), then imagine how entrenched and unyielding the extremist Jewish population is. No wonder they all but talk as if the Master Race. It is not a good thing for Israel, America, or any other people who work to the advancement of mankind - that a man who thinks nothing of killing Americans and Soviets in a nuclear exchange, and who advocates the murder of a Prime Minister is quietly supported even by expatriot moderates.

That picture "Man vs Tank" says much more than one would realize if one's only source of information is today's Israeli government. Yes, I fear Israel is becoming a racist nation in the traditions of George Wallace but with the attitudes of Slovedon Milosevik. This is made easier when expatriots even in the US promote half-truths - and deny this picture.

[adamzion]

[quote]Originally posted by tw
<deletia>
I can't even begin to respond to this post. Clearly, Tom does not feel that Israeli soldiers have the right to fire back when attacked. And, yes, rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at you *do* constitute attacks. Ditto buses driven into crowds at bus stops. Ditto car bombs exploding in sidewalk markets.

Have I said, even <b>once</b> that I like Sharon? No. Have I said, even <b>once</b> that I believe myself to be part of a "Master Race?" No. Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth or to argue with a straw man.

When the UN kills civilians in a "peacekeeping" operation such as in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda, it apparently meets with the Western media's approval. But when organized militia cowardly use civilians as "human shields," and the PA even has <b>rewards</b> for any parent who can demonstrate that a child died in such "service," Israel apparently has no right to take any steps to defend itself.

The mind boggles,
Z

[tw]

Originally posted by adamzion
I can't even begin to respond to this post. Clearly, Tom does not feel that Israeli soldiers have the right to fire back when attacked. And, yes, rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at you *do* constitute attacks. Ditto buses driven into crowds at bus stops. Ditto car bombs exploding in sidewalk markets.

The answer: definitely **NOT**. Peace keepers do not have the right to fire live ammunition at anyone throwing rocks as demonstrated in restrictions and difficulties expressed, for example, in the recent news reports assoicated with the Canadian UN General from Rwanda. Any peace loving human knows that fact. Peace keepers are only allowed limited response to Molotov cocktails and only in a very restricted set of events. Adam should know better. Firing tanks and amoured helicopters in full war mode is a complete violation of Peace Keeping anywhere - except in the Israeli army? Go figure. The Israeli Army is special? It can violate peace keeping standards that the US Army cannot? Is that why the Israeli soldiers had no problem creating a massacre of Palestinian women and children in Lebanon? Their definition of peace keeping can be different? Why? Are they a Master Race with special exceptions to Peace Keeping?

Logic takes us farther. The Israeli army is a victim of their top management. 85% of all problems are **directly** traceable to top management. Ariel Sharon is top of that list. His political party routinely advocates racism and did everything to create the resulting intifada. Evil top management (ie. Likud) has been defined, using layers and reams of facts and postings from RESPONSIBLE news sources. Likud not only 'all but murdered Rabin', but they did everything to destroy any and all peace settlements.

The Army is now stuck with the resulting and justifiable intifada. Justifiable? Oppressed people throughtout history are expected to respond in kind. One oppressed people were the American Colonies. American Colonists were never as oppressed as Palestinians AND non-Jewish Israelis are today - and yet.... Considering what oppressed people in Israel have put up with, it is a miracle that violence has remains so limited.

Your mind boggles when faced with facts that are emotionally denied. Deny: "For the first time for many years, Israelis are murmuring about the possibility for a wider war ... people recollect Mr Sharon's grand strategy behind the invasion of Lebanon". At least The Economist is not in denial. The attitude of Israel IS the mindset of a penis licking Ariel Sharon. Things in Israel have become that bad.

What were those Israeli settlers doing in the West Bank? Stealing property in violation of Israeli law AND in violation of the Oslo Accords. Why? Because not enough Jews stood up to a racist Likud party and its motherfucking, enemy even of all Americans, Ariel Sharon and his co-conspirator, the petty theif Netanyahu. Not enough Jews even protected their own Supreme Court because the court demanded Israeli law be enforced. The law and Court must be wrong because it protected non-Jews? Go figure.

Peace keepers from Britian did not fire on Indians who threw rocks .... in 1948! Why is firing live ammunition now acceptable in 2001? Racism, or just emotional denial of facts? It is a tough choice that does boggle the mind - racism or denial - which is it?

Originally posted by adamzion
When the UN kills civilians in a "peacekeeping" operation such as in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda, it apparently meets with the Western media's approval. But when organized militia cowardly use civilians as "human shields," and the PA even has <b>rewards</b> for any parent who can demonstrate that a child died in such "service," Israel apparently has no right to take any steps to defend itself..

The UN never intentionally attacked civilians with advanced military weapons in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda. Only the enemies of peace did that - another Sharon look-a-like called Milosevik. If Milosevik can do it, then so can the Israeli Army?

The above wild claim is classic, Nazi like, propaganda used against Czechs to justify a military massacre!!! UN peace keepers NEVER attacked the civilian population. You know better than to use outright lies with me. That will not stand. This is a strong, properly directed, and stinging admonishment to Adam for tarnishing this discussion with 'Communist Cold War' type lies. Adam - these lies are why I suspect, with each post, a) that you are now Likud, b) why you cannot respond to posted facts (ie. stealing of Palestinian lands), c) why you justify live ammunition against rock throwing children, and d) why you posted that embarrassingly obvious propaganda nonsense in http://www.facts4peace.com .

Great men sent women to face down oppressers - Ganghi. Great men sent children to face down oppressers - Martin Luther King. That is what great leaders of oppressed people must do when humanity's enemies control the Army. Children throwing rocks against an unlawful oppressor is normal throughout history.

Furthermore, when parents try to stop children from joining the intifada (a published fact that Adam repeatedly denies) AND when those children must stand up to Tanks, THEN the oppressor is not a peace keeper. The picture 'Man vs Tank' tells us how corrupt the Israeli powers-that-be have become. Just as a burning Buddist priest tried to warn us same about another corrupt government - S VietNam - then see the picture Man vs Tank.

Supporters of a corrupt governments would blame the kid and his parents OR the priest and his religion.

Man vs Tank defines the Middle East because 1) Palestinians have land and property stolen without due process (again in the US news weekly and not denied even by Adam), 2) even non-Arab members of Israel's Knesset can have their homes burned with no police protection or investigation (only a Master Race attitude would permit that to happen), and 3) Israelis routinely settle in the West Bank and Gaza in direct violation of International proclaimations AND in direct violation of agreements signed by the Israeli government. Man vs Tank defines how corrupt and racist a power behind that tank has become.

The mind only boggles that so many examples of racism result in "Not One" denial or apology.

I started this discussion with strong beliefs that Likud is out of control. However just what I read here - the lack of any coherent response to many news reports and other facts - I must suspect that a diseased mentality exists far beyond the Likud party. Ethnic cleansing is not just the attitude of Likud. Israeli ethnic cleansing is acceptable even in the US! I am appauled to be forced to conclude that an anti-humanity bias exists among American Jews - and that is even scarier. Yes - the mind boggles that there is not one denial of published facts and resulting conclusions both in this thread and in its sibling thread in Current Events.

However victims have been blamed??? No apologies for violations of laws or Human Rights. Just blame the victims. Go figure.

[tw]

In response to the blinding silence from those to accuse Palestinians of bombing Spring City(g):

Last Monday the BBC announced that Israel will begin investigations into murders of 13 non-Jewish Israeli citizens. Amazing. Those murders happened over 1 year ago. This is progress. An outgoing Israeli government has decided that non-Jewish murders should be investigated. Had the victims been Jewish citizens, then the Israeli Air Force would have started bombing that day?

[adamzion]

Listen, Tom, I know you have it in for Israel. Fine, have it your way. But I'm not going to constantly respond to your straw man posts.

One last statement from me on this subject: why do you never mention Palestinian atrocities against Israeli Jews? Car bombs? Buses plowing into crowds? Molotov cocktails thrown at soldiers by trained militiamen using children as human shields? Make no bones about it- the PA is cynically using Palestinian children as human shields, literally bribing their parents to place them in harm's way.

I do notice, though, that most of your sources- US and UK media- are known for strong anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian bias. The BBC and ABC News have been particularly blatant in this regard.

Finally, I invite everyone to read the article linked below. It is by a Muslim cleric on the competing Jewish and Muslim claims to both the land of Israel and Jerusalem. It's quite an interesting read.

http://shell.spqr.net/islam/racism.html

All things considered, etc.
Z