MLM = morons losing money

mrnoodle · 03-10-2005, 02:34 PM

I have had it up to my eyeballs with MLM people. Melaleuca, Quixstar/Amway, all of em. I'm sick of people pretending to be a friend, only to find that they're lubing you up for the Mystery Meeting at a restaurant to talk about "the Plan." I don't believe you when you say that you get a $5,000 check in the mail every month -- if by chance you ARE telling the truth, you got it by selling "training materials" at 400% markup to your "downline," which is an abominable misuse of trust and so-called friendship.

When I say I'm not interested, guess what? I'm not interested. I don't care to hear that "it's not a pyramid scheme," because it is. I don't want to hear that Quixstar is different from Scamway, because it's not. I don't want to hear "if it was such a bad thing, the government would've shut it down," because the government is the only thing more corrupt and misleading than your so called "business." I don't believe that you are the most closest and bestest friends with your so-called "mentor," and I don't believe he makes $45 million dollars a year simply by virtue of his winning smile and deep concern for my financial well-being.

I think you still believe the shit that these cults are shoveling into your pliant, eager, empty skull only because you've sunk a bunch of money and time into "the Plan" and are hoping beyond hope that it's not all hogwash, and that someday, the 48-pack toilet paper rolls bought by your "downline" will add up to enough money to erase the fact that your friends and family cringe every time you approach. (rants should have run-on sentences)

I don't care how much money "the corporation" makes, how much it's grown in the last 50 years, whether or not it made the Forbes 20 or 400 or whatever number. It's not a real business. It's organized thievery, and the only people who are successful are the ones who aid and abet the crime lords that run the company.

You do not make money by convincing your acquaintances to buy off-brand hand soap (don't start with your "we carry name-brand items that every family uses" spiel or I'll brain you with a shovel). You make money by convincing people to convince people to convince people to convince people that they should go to conventions and buy tapes and books. Period. They make em for a dollar, sell em to 'diamonds' for 2 dollars, who sell em to 'emeralds' for 3, who sell em to Direct Distributor Whatevertheyares for 4, who sell em to you for 7. If 500 newbies come to a convention and all buy 3 tapes and 4 books, SOMEONE is truly "realizing financial independence." That person is not you. It's the pinky-ring-wearing snake oil salesman behind the podium and his poofy haired, faux-diamond-encrusted trophy hag, who carry literal sacks of cash out of the venue and into their American-made McLuxury car.

I want to vomit.

no, it didn't happen to me. At least not recently. It's happening to a very good friend of mine who is trying to support his family and is about to piss away a good chunk of change and time. What's worse is the in-road that his "friend" is using to suck him in. Hell, I'll just come out with it. Our drummer has a new acquaintance who allegedly plays bass, has some talent, and is looking for a gig. Well, we're sitting around with the guy the other day talking music, when suddenly here comes the spiel. I just rolled my eyes, as did mike, but nate's going through a rough patch financially and you could see that vacant far-off look come into his eyes when the dude started talking about his residual bonus checks.

I would've almost believed him if...get this.... HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY BASS GEAR BECAUSE HE HAD TO SELL IT FOR LIVING EXPENSES. Um. That extra $30k doesn't go as far as it used to, I guess. Which won't matter, because if one of us doesn't buy into his amway bullshit, the chances of even seeing him again are zero. These cultists only look for people to recruit, everyone else is an unmotivated loser in their eyes.

I want to talk to my friend about it, but if I don't cool down I'll say the wrong thing and mess things up with us and with the band. The programming quixtar's followers receive is thorough, I'll give em that much.

Elspode · 03-10-2005, 02:42 PM

You *nailed* it, my friend. Motivational speaking + products to move = bad stuff.

dar512 · 03-10-2005, 02:43 PM

This sort of thing seems prevalent in certain areas. We got hit up a number of times when we lived in Seattle. Hasn't happened at all in Chicago.

lookout123 · 03-10-2005, 03:25 PM

at my old firm (that evil place where i had employees) 2 members of my staff got sucked into quixstar. i tried to steer them away until one of the guys freaks out in a staff meeting, telling everyone that i am trying to keep him from a "real moneymaking opportunity" so that i can keep him "as an employee, making an employee's wage". he transferred to a different office a couple of months later when the glow from his new business relationships wore off. i couldn't believe it - these guys were supposed to be 2 of my better salespeople and they totally bought a cheesy salespitch.

Clodfobble · 03-10-2005, 05:05 PM

Amen to that, noodle.

My husband got hit up awhile back by a total stranger, after a very long casual conversation in the Home Depot toilet department. This one wasn't even selling things, it was somehow based on website logins. But he was fairly livid when it suddenly dawned on him that this wasn't just a really overly friendly guy who liked talking about the vagaries of home plumbing. Pyramid schemes are a bit of a sore spot with him--as a child, his mother and father both bought into Amway completely, and it really hurt them financially.

And yet he still swears that their vitamin products are the best you can buy.

And my mother recently got sucked into an organic skin products pyramid scheme, but she pretends now that she only joined because she wanted to use the products, and figured it would be better to buy from herself than someone else. Yeah, uh huh.

Happy Monkey · 03-10-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

And yet he still swears that their vitamin products are the best you can buy.

There's nothing preventing Amway products from being good, it's their business practices that are destructive. Likewise, my mom has a plastic Tupperware collander that's at least 30 years old and is only now starting to deteriorate, even after being partially melted on the stove. I haven't been able to find one with as good a design (holes small enough to hold pasta, easy to clean, enough holes), even in some pretty upscale kitchenware stores.

But I'm not sure how a consumer can really know how good a vitamin product is. I just pick 'em by the taste.

jaguar · 03-10-2005, 07:26 PM

Are those free ipod/mac mini etc ones MLM or just dodgy marketing stuff (getting people to sign up to stuff then cancel + selling details)?

Beestie · 03-10-2005, 08:15 PM

Someone invited me to lunch and proceeded to lay out that spiel out on me a few years ago. He told me that if I recruited x people that I'd get a residual from all of them and all those that they recruited and all the ones that the recruits recruited.

So I asked him: "If all everyone is doing is recruiting new salespeople to generate downstream residuals then who's doing the selling that's generating all this residual? ... [pregnant pause/blank stare] ... Oh, I am when I buy the 'starter kit.' I see."

Check Please!

Undertoad · 03-10-2005, 08:18 PM

And y'know, this is one of the advantages of age, because after a while you've seen all this kind of shit and it's harder to take you in.

Which doesn't explain why the elderly are scam and telemarketing targets...

xoxoxoBruce · 03-10-2005, 08:52 PM

Because they're lonely and willing to talk. The longer you can keep them talking the better chance of wearing them down.

There's some truth to the old saw "You can't cheat an honest man" and the flip, "You can always cheat a larcenous man".

Iggy · 03-11-2005, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Which doesn't explain why the elderly are scam and telemarketing targets...

Well, many elderly people like to think that they are not meant any harm, particually if the person scamming them is "such a nice young man/lady." They are from a time when most people were honest, while now most people are dishonest (especially if they are trying to sell you something.) And then you have the senile elderly who can't remember what the news tells them about not helping strangers and usually fall for sob stories and money making scemes. It really makes you feel bad for them. But then again, you have MLM people who should know better and do it anyway. There wouldn't be scammers if no one fell for it, I guess.

Razorfish · 03-12-2005, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hot_pastrami

Gah... one of their agents is here.
MLM has only been pitched to me once... a co-worker approached me and asked "Have you ever heard of Equinox?"

I know this name well. Had an aunt who fell for this scam completely. Even went so far as to rent out an office space to run this operation.
Failing points:

The profit model for most companies looks like this:
manufacturer-->distributor-->retailer
The Equinox model looked more like this:
manufacturer-->lead guy-->distributor-->distributor-->distributor-->distributor-->and on and on

The end result is that by the time you go to sell products you need to convince people to pay $300 for a water filter and tell them that you'll make a commision off any selling they do.
People into these sort of scams say that their working for themselves when it couldn't be further from the truth. Can you actually make more money than your recruiter? Or will your blood and sweat just go to paying a person for mearly introducing the idea to you? The highest gut in the chain makes money off everyone and doesn't need to do anything because its not like people below him can choose to buy from a cheaper source.

In total the Equinox scam cost my aunt $11,000. Guess she was just a little to low on the pyramid to make money.

Quote:

But in THIS particular case, the facts are simply that not ALL of them are like that.

Which ones do work then? It seems to make more sense to follow the old-fashioned route of buying directly from a manufacturer instead of feeding into an endless stream of higher ups. But I suppose if you convinced people that your MLM worked you would benefit finacially from any success they had.

lookout123 · 03-12-2005, 09:54 PM

so which MLM are you a disciple, er distributor for?

tw · 03-15-2005, 12:47 PM

Many such scams make themselves obvious. If they are promoting the money to be made or growth of their organization, they you know it is a scam. The only thing that matters is the product. Profits without a good product (ie General Motors, AT&T, US Steel, Listerene, the big and therefore unproductive Airlines, the ISS, Carly Fiorina in the HP / Compaq merger stockholder meeting, etc) all mean scam. If they are not providing mankind with a better product, then it is a scam. It's really not difficult to be informed and smart. The minute a stock broker calls about a great stock that is going to make so much money - classic scam artist. Fight him for details on the company's product and get no engineer's attitude. Another classic scam stockbroker. Notice how we are going to fix social security by playing more money games. Scam. Why would Amway, et al be any different?

BigV · 03-15-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

Many such scams make themselves obvious. If they are promoting the money to be made or growth of their organization, they you know it is a scam. The only thing that matters is the product. Profits without a good product (ie General Motors, AT&T, US Steel, Listerene, the big and therefore unproductive Airlines, the ISS, Carly Fiorina in the HP / Compaq merger stockholder meeting, etc) all mean scam. If they are not providing mankind with a better product, then it is a scam. It's really not difficult to be informed and smart. The minute a stock broker calls about a great stock that is going to make so much money - classic scam artist. Fight him for details on the company's product and get no engineer's attitude. Another classic scam stockbroker. Notice how we are going to fix social security by playing more money games. Scam. Why would Amway, et al be any different?

Would you please expand on your position with respect to services?

Kid rolls up and knocks on my door, offering to cut my grass. His mower, his labor, etc. He cuts, I pay, bees migrate to neighbor's dandelion farm. No product, but this surely isn't a scam.

03-10-2005, 02:34 PM	#1
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	MLM = morons losing money I have had it up to my eyeballs with MLM people. Melaleuca, Quixstar/Amway, all of em. I'm sick of people pretending to be a friend, only to find that they're lubing you up for the Mystery Meeting at a restaurant to talk about "the Plan." I don't believe you when you say that you get a $5,000 check in the mail every month -- if by chance you ARE telling the truth, you got it by selling "training materials" at 400% markup to your "downline," which is an abominable misuse of trust and so-called friendship. When I say I'm not interested, guess what? I'm not interested. I don't care to hear that "it's not a pyramid scheme," because it is. I don't want to hear that Quixstar is different from Scamway, because it's not. I don't want to hear "if it was such a bad thing, the government would've shut it down," because the government is the only thing more corrupt and misleading than your so called "business." I don't believe that you are the most closest and bestest friends with your so-called "mentor," and I don't believe he makes $45 million dollars a year simply by virtue of his winning smile and deep concern for my financial well-being. I think you still believe the shit that these cults are shoveling into your pliant, eager, empty skull only because you've sunk a bunch of money and time into "the Plan" and are hoping beyond hope that it's not all hogwash, and that someday, the 48-pack toilet paper rolls bought by your "downline" will add up to enough money to erase the fact that your friends and family cringe every time you approach. (rants should have run-on sentences) I don't care how much money "the corporation" makes, how much it's grown in the last 50 years, whether or not it made the Forbes 20 or 400 or whatever number. It's not a real business. It's organized thievery, and the only people who are successful are the ones who aid and abet the crime lords that run the company. You do not make money by convincing your acquaintances to buy off-brand hand soap (don't start with your "we carry name-brand items that every family uses" spiel or I'll brain you with a shovel). You make money by convincing people to convince people to convince people to convince people that they should go to conventions and buy tapes and books. Period. They make em for a dollar, sell em to 'diamonds' for 2 dollars, who sell em to 'emeralds' for 3, who sell em to Direct Distributor Whatevertheyares for 4, who sell em to you for 7. If 500 newbies come to a convention and all buy 3 tapes and 4 books, SOMEONE is truly "realizing financial independence." That person is not you. It's the pinky-ring-wearing snake oil salesman behind the podium and his poofy haired, faux-diamond-encrusted trophy hag, who carry literal sacks of cash out of the venue and into their American-made McLuxury car. I want to vomit. no, it didn't happen to me. At least not recently. It's happening to a very good friend of mine who is trying to support his family and is about to piss away a good chunk of change and time. What's worse is the in-road that his "friend" is using to suck him in. Hell, I'll just come out with it. Our drummer has a new acquaintance who allegedly plays bass, has some talent, and is looking for a gig. Well, we're sitting around with the guy the other day talking music, when suddenly here comes the spiel. I just rolled my eyes, as did mike, but nate's going through a rough patch financially and you could see that vacant far-off look come into his eyes when the dude started talking about his residual bonus checks. I would've almost believed him if...get this.... HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY BASS GEAR BECAUSE HE HAD TO SELL IT FOR LIVING EXPENSES. Um. That extra $30k doesn't go as far as it used to, I guess. Which won't matter, because if one of us doesn't buy into his amway bullshit, the chances of even seeing him again are zero. These cultists only look for people to recruit, everyone else is an unmotivated loser in their eyes. I want to talk to my friend about it, but if I don't cool down I'll say the wrong thing and mess things up with us and with the band. The programming quixtar's followers receive is thorough, I'll give em that much. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh Last edited by mrnoodle; 03-10-2005 at 02:36 PM.

03-10-2005, 02:42 PM	#2
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	You nailed it, my friend. Motivational speaking + products to move = bad stuff. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

03-10-2005, 02:43 PM	#3
dar512 dar512 is now Pete Zicato Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago suburb Posts: 4,968	This sort of thing seems prevalent in certain areas. We got hit up a number of times when we lived in Seattle. Hasn't happened at all in Chicago. __________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain." -- Friedrich Schiller

03-10-2005, 03:25 PM	#4
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	at my old firm (that evil place where i had employees) 2 members of my staff got sucked into quixstar. i tried to steer them away until one of the guys freaks out in a staff meeting, telling everyone that i am trying to keep him from a "real moneymaking opportunity" so that i can keep him "as an employee, making an employee's wage". he transferred to a different office a couple of months later when the glow from his new business relationships wore off. i couldn't believe it - these guys were supposed to be 2 of my better salespeople and they totally bought a cheesy salespitch. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-10-2005, 07:26 PM	#7
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Are those free ipod/mac mini etc ones MLM or just dodgy marketing stuff (getting people to sign up to stuff then cancel + selling details)? __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

03-10-2005, 05:05 PM	#5
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Amen to that, noodle. My husband got hit up awhile back by a total stranger, after a very long casual conversation in the Home Depot toilet department. This one wasn't even selling things, it was somehow based on website logins. But he was fairly livid when it suddenly dawned on him that this wasn't just a really overly friendly guy who liked talking about the vagaries of home plumbing. Pyramid schemes are a bit of a sore spot with him--as a child, his mother and father both bought into Amway completely, and it really hurt them financially. And yet he still swears that their vitamin products are the best you can buy. And my mother recently got sucked into an organic skin products pyramid scheme, but she pretends now that she only joined because she wanted to use the products, and figured it would be better to buy from herself than someone else. Yeah, uh huh.

03-10-2005, 08:15 PM	#8
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	Someone invited me to lunch and proceeded to lay out that spiel out on me a few years ago. He told me that if I recruited x people that I'd get a residual from all of them and all those that they recruited and all the ones that the recruits recruited. So I asked him: "If all everyone is doing is recruiting new salespeople to generate downstream residuals then who's doing the selling that's generating all this residual? ... [pregnant pause/blank stare] ... Oh, I am when I buy the 'starter kit.' I see." Check Please! __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

03-10-2005, 08:18 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	And y'know, this is one of the advantages of age, because after a while you've seen all this kind of shit and it's harder to take you in. Which doesn't explain why the elderly are scam and telemarketing targets...

03-10-2005, 08:52 PM	#10
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Because they're lonely and willing to talk. The longer you can keep them talking the better chance of wearing them down. There's some truth to the old saw "You can't cheat an honest man" and the flip, "You can always cheat a larcenous man". __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-12-2005, 09:54 PM	#13
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	so which MLM are you a disciple, er distributor for? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

03-15-2005, 12:47 PM	#14
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Many such scams make themselves obvious. If they are promoting the money to be made or growth of their organization, they you know it is a scam. The only thing that matters is the product. Profits without a good product (ie General Motors, AT&T, US Steel, Listerene, the big and therefore unproductive Airlines, the ISS, Carly Fiorina in the HP / Compaq merger stockholder meeting, etc) all mean scam. If they are not providing mankind with a better product, then it is a scam. It's really not difficult to be informed and smart. The minute a stock broker calls about a great stock that is going to make so much money - classic scam artist. Fight him for details on the company's product and get no engineer's attitude. Another classic scam stockbroker. Notice how we are going to fix social security by playing more money games. Scam. Why would Amway, et al be any different?

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