Understanding terrorism - Page 11

xoxoxoBruce · 08-01-2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

And they are conned thereby -- which isn't choice at all, but being defrauded. Tyrannies do their thing by force and by fraud, and are illegitimate governments to the degree that they do either. This is also known as browbeating by threats and killings. Libertarians understand this, but Bruce doesn't. Just because Bruce doesn't see this doesn't mean I'm in error. Which of us better grasps history will be seen in due course.

Here you in effect define free speech as that speech which agrees with you. Sorry, kiddo: my free speech is good for telling you in what manner and degree you are a tyrant-loving fellow-traveling booby, and no champion of human liberty. A reflexive contrarianism won't win you this, either; it paints you into absurd and untenable positions. Contrarianism is the property of trolls, and you know how much respect they get.

I am here to speak against tyranny. You are here to speak against me. That smart or what? Free adult human beings do not stick up for slavery, oppression, genocide, or the myriad villainies that are part and parcel of non-democratic regimes worldwide. Slavemongers and the slave-minded, however, will jump right in. They want the rest of us as messed up as they are.

Keep talking, the more you say the more you show how seriuosly fucked up you really are. Even Radar on his most rabid Libertarian rants never approached your level of wrong. Which reminds me, every other Libertarian tells me the constitution forbids us from using the armed forces for anything but defending our shores. Yet you want to go beat up every country that YOU don't approve of. I didn't know there is diametrically opposed Libertarians.

08-01-2005, 10:50 PM

Tisk, tisk, tisk, Bruce. Poor Urbane Guerilla has probably only just now been de-instutionalized. I'm sure he's doing the best he can - waiting to use the internet terminal at the public library, trying to remember if he took his meds or not... Must be quite difficult, I'm sure. Oh, and let's not forget that he just climbed Mt. Everest, too. No doubt he is suffering from O2 deprivation and altitude sickness on top of everything else!

Undertoad · 08-02-2005, 07:03 AM

Oxygen deprivation humor from you, Mar? Isn't that sorta weirdly inappropriate?

lumberjim · 08-02-2005, 09:46 AM

i have tried like a motherfucker to ignore multichiko since she came back. i even had her on my ignore list, which i have never ever done before. but you fuckers keep talking to her. it really dissapoints me. i considered just forgetting about the cellar for a while, but thats a cop out. i cant put up with this any longer, cuz jinx keeps telling me how fucked up and annoying she is since she came back.

just shut up. shut up shut up shut up.

and you pricks that keep talking to her and participating in her sycophantic exchanges need to keep in mind that your stock drops with each of those posts.

Hobbs · 08-02-2005, 09:46 AM

One thing I have come to realize is that terrorism it not only fought with guns and bombs and violence, but with propaganda as well. These groups are big on this. From the videos of "executions," internet postings, all those videos and audio tapes put out by bin laden and al qaeda, even the claiming responsibility for attacks. They even use news agencies, both foreign and our own domestic outlets. I just read a news report that said insrugents handed out flyers in Haditha claiming they had killed 10 Marines and taken all their weapons. It's all propaganda whether it's true or not and they use it to bolster support for their cause and recuritment numbers. They use it for bragging rights. It gets everyone pumping their fists and chanting in the streets. I used to think that all we had to do is launch a propaganda war of our own, but I've come to realize that the everyday person over there is willing to listen any news as long as it's not from the U.S.

lookout123 · 08-02-2005, 09:49 AM

hey Jim? you just talked about her.

jinx · 08-02-2005, 10:45 AM

Ooh, he's got you there Jim, you did talk about her. Oh, now I've done it! There it is again!

mrnoodle · 08-02-2005, 11:12 AM

context, please? did i miss a mari/lj flamewar?

08-02-2005, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Oxygen deprivation humor from you, Mar? Isn't that sorta weirdly inappropriate?

Why, not at all UT, it takes one to know one!

lumberjim · 08-02-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

hey Jim? you just talked about her.

ABOUT....not to. the difference matters

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-03-2005, 03:38 AM

Somebody crazed enough to defend tyrannies everywhere, which is what you're too messed up to see you are doing, Bruce, telling me I'm a little off?-- my, my, that feels like a medal.

Peace at any price seems to be the standard you march under. I'm here to tell you slavery and oppression are worse than war, which is pretty much a given with the more vertebrate thinkers -- and the more vertebrate sort of libertarian, as well.

Since the kind of nations I disapprove of are uniformly totalitarian ones -- you wouldn't want to live under those regimes either, I don't think, not unless you have remarkably strong masochistic traits (I don't) -- it simply cannot be wrong that I would attack them, nor would it ever be wrong to make war upon such. The Communists used to misuse the term "war of national liberation," but the record so far is that it's the democracies, particularly the United States, that actually liberate -- by war with totalitarian systems. We have replaced totalitarian systems in two sizeable nations by warfare already: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan have both been, in the end, improved. Even though each country got raked over pretty thoroughly, the improvement has stuck, even in a never-democratic place like Japan. Neither nation's political system precisely resembles the American, but I don't see they have to.

It seems you don't have much understanding of how umbrella a term "Libertarian" really is. That's just intellectually lazy: there are at least three major and separate streams of Libertarian philosophy: right-Libertarian, a very Jeffersonian lot; left-Libertarian, who seem to come at it from a free-love-and-legal-weed elderly-hippie platform; and the anarcho-Libertarian, who are perhaps the most radically anti-big-government of the lot, through being hostile to the very notion of any government at all -- though modified, I think, by experience. As you can tell, I'm no leftist, and I should mention that while the late Murray Rothbard was my first exposure to Libertarian thinking, I don't share his touchingly naive belief that anarchic social models are the answer to it all. That leaves the right-Libertarian, unless I can start a whole new, aggressive, brook-no-interference branch of the philosophy myself. Since I usually find myself agreeing with the kind of ideas, particularly in foreign policy, that the Republicans come up with, though unhappy with the Reps' enthusiasm for a great big state and debasing the currency by inflation, I figure I'm a right-Libertarian.

It's something like this: if libertarian ideas of proper governance are to spread beyond the borders of the United States, those holding these ideas are going to be subject to repression by the statist thugs of the very nations that need libertarianism the most: the autocracies, the oligarchies, the totalitarian regimes. They must be prepared to resist that oppression. Moral suasion isn't going to do it, as we all know, since such thugs aren't there to open a panel discussion about the issues, and the thugs employed by such states basically aren't going to have a place in the society the libertarians wish to make, certainly not as thugs. So we libertarians must be prepared to countenance violence, and revolution, and to be more efficient at it than the tyrannies can be. The slavemonger revolutionaries have managed successful accession to power by such revolution, and their strategies are well known. Why can't these strategies be turned to the aid of making open and free societies instead of closed national slave-pens?

Oh, and those Libertarians who alleged to you the Constitution forbids war save in the most narrowly defined understanding of "defensive?" They cannot point to any Constitutional clause that says that -- certainly not in Article I, Section 8, 11-16.

Urbane Guerrilla · 08-03-2005, 03:43 AM

Marichiko? Sorry, but sane has never been and never shall be defined as "agrees with Marichiko." Nor is insane defined to the contrary.

You are very young, and you are very immature. Only time will cure that. I can offer a hint: don't compete with Jaguar for the top prize in the fatuity category.

Undertoad · 08-03-2005, 07:31 AM

UG, what we here at the Cellar have deteremined, through a very lengthy process taking years, is that big-L and small-l libertarians of every stripe are an extremely anti-social lot.

This has little to do with political theory, although it has a great deal to do with politics.

I count myself as anti-social but also in the process of learning how to deal with it.

mrnoodle · 08-03-2005, 09:55 AM

Hey Urbane G, I'm curious to know how you score on the political compass.
Here's the thread, so we don't hijack this one.

What started as a refreshing counterpoint to liberal diarrhea is starting to sound a wee pompous and...dare I say it...trollish. Make thy mark, UG, that we may know what flavor of lunatic you are. (I'm a republicanarchist).

08-03-2005, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You are very young, and you are very immature. Only time will cure that. I can offer a hint: don't compete with Jaguar for the top prize in the fatuity category.

Flattery will get you nowhere, UG. Yeah, I'm doing my best to fill Jaguar's shoes until his return when I will then defer to the "greater master." :p

08-02-2005, 09:46 AM	#154
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	i have tried like a motherfucker to ignore multichiko since she came back. i even had her on my ignore list, which i have never ever done before. but you fuckers keep talking to her. it really dissapoints me. i considered just forgetting about the cellar for a while, but thats a cop out. i cant put up with this any longer, cuz jinx keeps telling me how fucked up and annoying she is since she came back. just shut up. shut up shut up shut up. and you pricks that keep talking to her and participating in her sycophantic exchanges need to keep in mind that your stock drops with each of those posts. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

08-02-2005, 09:46 AM	#155
Hobbs Professor for the school of ass-clownery Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Surprise! Posts: 404	One thing I have come to realize is that terrorism it not only fought with guns and bombs and violence, but with propaganda as well. These groups are big on this. From the videos of "executions," internet postings, all those videos and audio tapes put out by bin laden and al qaeda, even the claiming responsibility for attacks. They even use news agencies, both foreign and our own domestic outlets. I just read a news report that said insrugents handed out flyers in Haditha claiming they had killed 10 Marines and taken all their weapons. It's all propaganda whether it's true or not and they use it to bolster support for their cause and recuritment numbers. They use it for bragging rights. It gets everyone pumping their fists and chanting in the streets. I used to think that all we had to do is launch a propaganda war of our own, but I've come to realize that the everyday person over there is willing to listen any news as long as it's not from the U.S. __________________ That's it! Send in the chimps!

08-02-2005, 09:49 AM	#156
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	hey Jim? you just talked about her. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

08-02-2005, 10:45 AM	#157
jinx Come on, cat. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: general vicinity of Philadelphia area Posts: 7,013	Ooh, he's got you there Jim, you did talk about her. Oh, now I've done it! There it is again! __________________ Crying won't help you, praying won't do you no good.

08-03-2005, 03:38 AM	#161
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Somebody crazed enough to defend tyrannies everywhere, which is what you're too messed up to see you are doing, Bruce, telling me I'm a little off?-- my, my, that feels like a medal. Peace at any price seems to be the standard you march under. I'm here to tell you slavery and oppression are worse than war, which is pretty much a given with the more vertebrate thinkers -- and the more vertebrate sort of libertarian, as well. Since the kind of nations I disapprove of are uniformly totalitarian ones -- you wouldn't want to live under those regimes either, I don't think, not unless you have remarkably strong masochistic traits (I don't) -- it simply cannot be wrong that I would attack them, nor would it ever be wrong to make war upon such. The Communists used to misuse the term "war of national liberation," but the record so far is that it's the democracies, particularly the United States, that actually liberate -- by war with totalitarian systems. We have replaced totalitarian systems in two sizeable nations by warfare already: Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan have both been, in the end, improved. Even though each country got raked over pretty thoroughly, the improvement has stuck, even in a never-democratic place like Japan. Neither nation's political system precisely resembles the American, but I don't see they have to. It seems you don't have much understanding of how umbrella a term "Libertarian" really is. That's just intellectually lazy: there are at least three major and separate streams of Libertarian philosophy: right-Libertarian, a very Jeffersonian lot; left-Libertarian, who seem to come at it from a free-love-and-legal-weed elderly-hippie platform; and the anarcho-Libertarian, who are perhaps the most radically anti-big-government of the lot, through being hostile to the very notion of any government at all -- though modified, I think, by experience. As you can tell, I'm no leftist, and I should mention that while the late Murray Rothbard was my first exposure to Libertarian thinking, I don't share his touchingly naive belief that anarchic social models are the answer to it all. That leaves the right-Libertarian, unless I can start a whole new, aggressive, brook-no-interference branch of the philosophy myself. Since I usually find myself agreeing with the kind of ideas, particularly in foreign policy, that the Republicans come up with, though unhappy with the Reps' enthusiasm for a great big state and debasing the currency by inflation, I figure I'm a right-Libertarian. It's something like this: if libertarian ideas of proper governance are to spread beyond the borders of the United States, those holding these ideas are going to be subject to repression by the statist thugs of the very nations that need libertarianism the most: the autocracies, the oligarchies, the totalitarian regimes. They must be prepared to resist that oppression. Moral suasion isn't going to do it, as we all know, since such thugs aren't there to open a panel discussion about the issues, and the thugs employed by such states basically aren't going to have a place in the society the libertarians wish to make, certainly not as thugs. So we libertarians must be prepared to countenance violence, and revolution, and to be more efficient at it than the tyrannies can be. The slavemonger revolutionaries have managed successful accession to power by such revolution, and their strategies are well known. Why can't these strategies be turned to the aid of making open and free societies instead of closed national slave-pens? Oh, and those Libertarians who alleged to you the Constitution forbids war save in the most narrowly defined understanding of "defensive?" They cannot point to any Constitutional clause that says that -- certainly not in Article I, Section 8, 11-16. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course. Last edited by Urbane Guerrilla; 08-03-2005 at 03:52 AM.

08-01-2005, 10:50 PM	#152
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Tisk, tisk, tisk, Bruce. Poor Urbane Guerilla has probably only just now been de-instutionalized. I'm sure he's doing the best he can - waiting to use the internet terminal at the public library, trying to remember if he took his meds or not... Must be quite difficult, I'm sure. Oh, and let's not forget that he just climbed Mt. Everest, too. No doubt he is suffering from O2 deprivation and altitude sickness on top of everything else!

08-02-2005, 07:03 AM	#153
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oxygen deprivation humor from you, Mar? Isn't that sorta weirdly inappropriate?

08-02-2005, 11:12 AM	#158
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	context, please? did i miss a mari/lj flamewar?

08-03-2005, 03:43 AM	#162
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Marichiko? Sorry, but sane has never been and never shall be defined as "agrees with Marichiko." Nor is insane defined to the contrary. You are very young, and you are very immature. Only time will cure that. I can offer a hint: don't compete with Jaguar for the top prize in the fatuity category. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

08-03-2005, 07:31 AM	#163
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	UG, what we here at the Cellar have deteremined, through a very lengthy process taking years, is that big-L and small-l libertarians of every stripe are an extremely anti-social lot. This has little to do with political theory, although it has a great deal to do with politics. I count myself as anti-social but also in the process of learning how to deal with it.

08-03-2005, 09:55 AM	#164
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	Hey Urbane G, I'm curious to know how you score on the political compass. Here's the thread, so we don't hijack this one. What started as a refreshing counterpoint to liberal diarrhea is starting to sound a wee pompous and...dare I say it...trollish. Make thy mark, UG, that we may know what flavor of lunatic you are. (I'm a republicanarchist).

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