03-15-2004, 03:34 PM | #151 | ||
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
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"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~ "The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It" |
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03-15-2004, 03:39 PM | #152 | |
Professor
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As for the statement she signed, I wouldn't put too much weight onto it -- it's quite likely they physically prevented her from leaving the hospital until she signed, which makes the signature under duress. |
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03-15-2004, 03:50 PM | #153 |
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Oppositional defiant disorder sounds like they don't like being told what to do. Imagine that a 12 year old who talks back and doesn't like being told what to do. lol
She sounds like she should be a libertarian. She supports drug use, won't allow others to dictate what medical procedures she will or won't have, and doesn't like being told what to do.
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
03-15-2004, 03:51 PM | #154 | |
Gone and done
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In a perfect world, every pregnancy *would* be a choice -- not a negative one (abortion) but a positive one. I'm old enough, responsible enough, financially secure enough, have sufficient family support... I want to have a baby. Pop this pill, have sex with the man I choose, blammo, I'm knocked up. When all women have that sort of positive control over their reproductive abilities, then we (as a society) can make it a crime to maltreat a fetus. Till that day, it has to remain a case of "morally reprehensible, legally untouchable". One can argue that having sex itself is reproductive control. Women who abstain rarely have children.[1] But sex is recreation in our culture, and part of most couple's relationships. It is therefore untenable to tie sex to childbearing, no matter what the Religious Right says. - Pie [1] The pope and the bible notwithstanding.
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per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not. |
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03-15-2004, 04:06 PM | #155 |
The urban Jane Goodall
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In regards to Spooner. Sounds great in theory, but if it were so simple, so, "...easily understood by common minds..." then why is it that we have such an enormous problem with crime?
Theories are great to work from, but like a battle plan, it only lasts until first contact with the enemy. And to borrow from yet another philosopher, "We have met the enemy and they is us." "Each of us has a natural right - from God - to defend his person..." Now I believe I understand your fervor for your belief in Natural Law. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that Natural Law is the highest law. And that law is handed down from on high. Whose god/dess(s/es)? Your god/dess(s/es)? Wolf's god/dess(s/es)? Where does an athiest stand in this legislative heirarchy? Again, if I'm wrong, tell me. And show me where. Edit: typos
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I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle |
03-15-2004, 04:26 PM | #156 |
lurkin old school
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As others have stated here, she elected not to have surgery and to birth the kids vaginally. That was her right and choice and her risk. Do I find it despicable and a choice that I cannot understand? Yes. Criminal? No. I support her right to decide when and who can cut her body.
What good will convicting her of a crime do? Setting a precident that the government or doctors decide what is best for individuals' bodies? Eeek. Genetic engineering? Force women to carry unwanted offspring? A little too Margaret Atwood for me. More bad than good, I think. Individuals have the right to deny surgery on their own bodies. (hey I agree with Radar on this point! Zounds!) Every child should be wanted and loved. Planned parenthood! What is the proper response to this sad story? Therapy has been mentioned. I'll chime in with education. I do support public education because for some, it offers a chance to overcome a start like this and make a better choice themselves, when the time comes. |
03-15-2004, 04:28 PM | #157 |
stays crispy in milk
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Here is an updated article on this woman.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4509692/ As has been mention this woman admits to being mentally unbalanced. She has attempted to commit suicide twice and as was noted several posts ago she has spent time in a psychiatric hospital. Listed in the article is another tid bit of info, Rowland was convicted of child endangerment in 2000 for punching her two year old daughter several times in the face after the toddler picked up a candy bar and began eating it while in a Super Market. Witnesses said Rowland screamed, “You ate the candy bar and now I can’t buy my cigarettes.” Another artical: http://news10now.com/content/beyond_...3167&SecID=105 It states that Rowland is denying the charges and claims she already has scars from previous C-sections. So she has not previously had a c-section, and so would not have known what to expect.
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I cant think of anything to put here so this is all I am going to write. |
03-15-2004, 04:31 PM | #158 | |||||
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Natural law comes from nature, the creator, evolution, etc or whomever you believe created mankind. In any case we're BORN with rights and they are as real and undeniable as gravity. You can no more sell, give away, or vote on gravity than you can your rights. If every single person on earth voted to get rid of gravity tomorrow, we'd still have it.
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
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03-15-2004, 04:35 PM | #159 | |
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quote:Ok, so does she get ANY type of punishment, or is she allowed to just go home and try again?
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Let's allow women to CHOOSE to endanger the welfare of their unborn and birthed child/children, because it's THEIR choice, after all. They will not be punished in the least, because of their FREE CHOICE to endanger their offspring, and that is their RIGHT. Never mind that many things that a woman can do to endanger their offspring while in the womb are PREVENTABLE, it's still ok legally to CHOOSE to endanger that life. Never mind that this would give way to a population of deformed, mentally challenged, physically disabled humans. Noooo, it's ok, because the mother had the R.I.G.H.T. to mess up her child. Well hell then: why have any laws at all? Let people who feel it's their "right" to kill someone go ahead and do it...no questions asked, no punishment. Feel you have the right to steal, rob, cheat, drink and drive, destroy property...why not? Hey, you don't like that person because of their color? Beat 'em down, do it all! After all, it's your RIGHT!
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"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~ "The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It" |
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03-15-2004, 04:44 PM | #160 |
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You really seem to hammer the point that the fetus is a parasite.
Yes, by definition, the fetus is a parasite, but it is not just a parasite. It seems to be a rather significant parasite because if we destroyed all of them and never allowed any of them to latch onto us, the species as a whole would die. The parent/offspring relationship is a little more complex than just calling the offspring a parasite on its host. We can happily destroy all tapeworms that latch onto people, but we cannot do the same for all fetuses, at least not without dire consquences for the human race. Your comparison is not valid. A tapeworm is forever a tapeworm; that fetus is something with far more potential. Tell a happy expecting mother she is carrying just a parasite inside her. Isn't it obvious it is far more than just that? Should it have rights greater than that of the mother? No, that should be obvious. Should it have equal rights with the mother? This point we can debate all you want. Should it have no rights whatsoever? It is a human individual, it should be treated with dignity and respect. You could argue that the rights of the mother over her body superscede the rights of a fetus to live, but you can't argue that the fetus should have no rights whatsoever. |
03-15-2004, 04:50 PM | #161 | |||
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When you rob, cheat, drink and drive, destroy property, commit acts of violence (your motives don't matter so whether or not you did it for race is irrelevant), etc, you are actually violating the RIGHTS (those things a fetus doesn't have but a born baby does have) of non-consenting PERSONS. Try to get it through your head. Repeat this phrase over and over. A FETUS IS NOT A PERSON...A FETUS IS NOT A PERSON...A FETUS IS NOT A PERSON. Quote:
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Last edited by Radar; 03-15-2004 at 04:55 PM. |
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03-15-2004, 05:07 PM | #162 |
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
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I think that is the crux of the attitude. Since most pregnancies are unplanned, society as a whole has been programmed to put the "best possible face on it", as it were. Give the expectant mother as much positive feedback as possible, you-can-do-it, be happy, you didn't just f*ck up your life.
And I think it's only making the problem worse: if adoption were really as encouraged as it in theory is, I think many more women would choose it. But the same family/friends who ask accusingly why someone would choose to not have children also say "How could you give up your own child??" to the totally unprepared and inadequate young mother who accidentally got pregnant. |
03-15-2004, 05:29 PM | #163 | ||
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
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quote:Let's allow women to CHOOSE to endanger the welfare of their unborn and birthed child/children, because it's THEIR choice, after all. They will not be punished in the least, because of their FREE CHOICE...
At least you got that part right. Here's where you go terribly wrong.....again. This is not about whether you or I are "right or wrong". As far as I can see, this is about people having very strong opinions about a very serious issue. quote:Well hell then: why have any laws at all? Let people who feel it's their "right" to kill someone go ahead and do it...no questions asked, no punishment. Feel you have the right to steal, rob, cheat, drink and drive, destroy property...why not? Hey, you don't like that person because of their color? Beat 'em down, do it all! After all, it's your RIGHT! Quote:
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Oh and by the way: YOU are the one arguing with yourself about the whole "the fetus is not a person and has no rights". I don't care about that part of the equation, because it's not the sticking point with me. What IS, however, is that people seem to be satified that the behavior of the mother will be somewhat jusitfied because of her right to behave in such a manner. Oh well....we'll just have to agree to disagree. No one is right..no one is wrong. *cue Louis Armstrong* "What a wonderful...world"
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"Freedom is not given. It is our right at birth. But there are some moments when it must be taken." ~Tagline from the movie "Amistad"~ "The Akan concept of Sankofa: In order to move forward we first have to take a step back. In other words, before we can be prepared for the future, we must comprehend the past." From "We Did It, They Hid It" |
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03-15-2004, 05:41 PM | #164 | |
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A late term fetus is not a lump that just sits there and leeches. It is conscience to an extent as much as a young baby is. You can legally call it a non-person, but it has a developing personality that can be interacted with. |
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03-15-2004, 05:51 PM | #165 | ||
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I am most certainly not attempting to condone or criticize her choices with her own body. It's just none of my business, none of your business, and none of the government's business. I can appreciate your anger as a mother. I felt the same way about Susan Smith and Andrea Yates. I think an adequate and fair punishment for Andera Yates in particular would include being anally raped with a broken glass dildo dipped in the ebola virus or to have injections of aids and cancer to see which would kill her slower. She should be lowered alternately inch by inch first into a wood chipper, and then into lemon juice. Susan Smith on the other hand should just be boiled in oil and dragged behind a train from LA to New York. But that's just my opinion.
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
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