Egypt and Arab States circle toilet bowl

[Kaliayev]

Basically, Libyan rebels are pushing for the capital now, but they fear that they have insufficient manpower and training to take Tripoli. Tanks surround the city of Zawiyah, which has been captured by rebels, but fortunately Libyan WMDs (such as mustard gas) have no viable delivery system.

The State Department has condemned the violence in the country. And is letting everyone know Hillary is off to Geneva, to do stuff. Rather her than me, Geneva is, for the most part, a horrible city, especially around the international quarter, near the airport.

[ZenGum]

Man, I'd love to go cruising with SleazySilvio! With MadBadVlad along in case of trouble. You'd be sure of an awesome night.

[Kaliayev]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Man, I'd love to go cruising with SleazySilvio! With MadBadVlad along in case of trouble. You'd be sure of an awesome night.

There is a very amusing story about Berlusconi and Putin hunting a deer together, out there on the internet. I highly recommend googling it, because it just says so much about those two leaders, as if we needed to know anything more about their skeezy and somewhat disturbing personalities.

[Undertoad]

Can you make the argument without involving Iraq or knee-jerk thinking? Because we're talking about an entirely different country with entirely different conditions. For example, all the decision-makers you mention are no longer in office.

And while history repeats itself, it never repeats itself exactly. Predicting a future exactly like the past is generally a failure.

This post is not as intelligent as your previous ones and we like the intelligent ones better. Thank you.

[Kaliayev]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Can you make the argument without involving Iraq or knee-jerk thinking? Because we're talking about an entirely different country with entirely different conditions. For example, all the decision-makers you mention are no longer in office.

And while history repeats itself, it never repeats itself exactly. Predicting a future exactly like the past is generally a failure.

This post is not as intelligent as your previous ones and we like the intelligent ones better. Thank you.

Oh dear, please don't do that Undertoad. You are not as smooth a baiter as you'd like to believe.

Yes, clearly because influential people involved in the decision-making over Iraq no longer hold office, they are utterly powerless and unlistened to by current decision makers or the media, who can drive the narrative on any decision quite easily. Furthermore, all decisions are made at the overt political level and by elected leaders, and certainly no bureaucrats, think tank members, military personnel or diplomats have vested ideological interests of any kind, or indeed supported such action before.

And of course, Iraq was an aberration in the history of intervention. Never mind that vast majority of US and NATO interventions are failures when it comes to establishing strong governments that respect human rights, I'm sure they'll get this one right.

Damn, I really should try this intelligent thinking thing a little more, shouldn't I?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Kaliayev

You are not as smooth a baiter as you'd like to believe.

Hey! He's not just a smooth baiter, he's a master baiter!

[Undertoad]

Nope, still not working. You've only made the same point, but drowning it in sarcasm. That's unhelpful.

How do you decide which particular history is going to determine the future? And you've raised the bar by saying the goal is producing a strong government that respects human rights; the goal here is only to prevent the mass killing of people.

Sort of, but not exactly like, how NATO stopped ethnic cleansing in Bosnia partly with a no-fly zone.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

the goal here is only to prevent the mass killing of people.

The biggest concern I have with the no fly zone are the implications behind it. If it's purpose is solely to limit Gadaffi's options and force him to slaughter his own people on the ground then I have no problem with it. But, realistically, I don't see a no fly zone having too great of an effect since much of the killings have been on the ground by mercenaries and other people loyal to Gadaffi. That brings up the inevitable (yes, this is a slipperly slope) question about further obligations to stop the mass killings.

[Spexxvet]

Let the Russians impose a no fly zone.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

How do you decide which particular history is going to determine the future? And you've raised the bar by saying the goal is producing a strong government that respects human rights; the goal here is only to prevent the mass killing of people.

UT's questions and doubts are on target. Many lessons from history apply.

For example, for democracy to take hold, the people must ‘lead the charge’ with severe losses. Democracy is not handed to a nation by a larger power (ie Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam). It must be earned.

Second, a nation does not go in militarily until a smoking gun exists. Learn why Bosnia was so quickly and easily settled. It was left to fester. Then the solution was desired by all sides who wanted the solution. To understand that, find the decision that Clinton made in 21 July of that year – when military action was finally justified.

Be very careful about letting emotions force a decision. Where I am sitting, not enough Libyans have died yet. If you have better facts, well let’s see them with numbers. This is a nation with a massive power vacuum. And maybe without any clear consensus among its people as to where they want to go.

Never think military action is a solution. Always remember what the entire purpose of any military conflict is for. The negotiated settlement. The only solution. One that all parties must first want. This third reason may also say why international intervention could only be destructive.

Never let emotions appear in conclusions. Sometimes massive numbers of dead people will only create a better solution. Hard logic trumps feelings. UT's post so accurately demands actions justified by first learning lessons from history.

Ignore the carriers. Militarily, they are inert. Mostly only show. Could do almost nothing to enforce a no fly zone. To do a no-fly zone would require cooperation from either Tunisia or Algeria. And from Egypt. Are those countries ready to take sides?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

That making war on the people is wrong and counterproductive. A concept that even America did not understand in the 1920s.

Wonder where he's getting this one? What does he think changed in the 1930s or thereabouts?

As for whether power-seekers are inherently so very deserving of power, that is very much open to question, likely in every case without exception.

[Cloud]

Quaddafi the fashionista. I found this quite amazing and funny.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f...200908#slide=1

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Griff

Is there some older SAM tech we can get to the rebels that they can use on us in the future?

FTFY

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Griff:
Is there some older SAM tech we can get to the rebels that they can use on us in the future?

FTFY

I don't think you did fix it for him -- I don't recollect any SAM tech we shipped to Afghanistan ever amounted to enough of a threat to U.S. arms to shoot down one fixed-wing aircraft, and maybe what, two helos? Over ten years? We are crashing more of them just out of weather and williwaws. The Afghan mountains can be a graveyard of airframes too.

You just don't want our side to win, Spexx. Such desire, manifested, would strain your relationship with your friends, I suppose.

You should pick friends who are not Fascist sympathizers, and scourge Fascist sympathies from your heart as well. Then you will be a man in full, instead of a cripple lacking any democratic values. I am what democratic values sound like when they are in full cry. Those who believe otherwise of me cannot support their beliefs with facts. No, none of you can -- you have only lies and misunderstandings (not necessarily your own) and shrunken, totalitarian, unfree values -- more correctly called antivalues.

[Griff]

While we're watching Japan, the Saudis send troops into Bahrain.