Better to lie, or to break trust?

[Lady Sidhe]

JFDL....

Sorry... I just couldn't help but laugh at that reasoning...only a man would try to get by with that one...No offense to the guys here...


Sidhe

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by ladysycamore
The only problem with that is that if something was contracted (disease) or conceived (getting pregnant) by that drunken union...well I'm thinking at SOME point the truth has to be revealed.

Thats a very good point, one I had not considered.

Originally posted by juju
I think it'd be best to tell, since good relationships have honesty as their foundation.

I agree with you Juju, trust and honesty should be at every relationships foundation. However if you have cheated on your other half you have already broken that trust. My reasoning for saying don't tell is that at that point, hiding it and lying about it is a moot point compared to the larger picture. The trust is broken, any added stuff is just like icing on the cake.

After talking to HP about this, he expressed that he would like me to tell him in the highly unlikely event something like this happens. I have to respect his wishes even if it would be a hard thing to admit having done. Having been on the other side of that table I know how much it hurts. However as I just pointed out, lying about it is like icing on the cake and since the larger damage has already been done, you might as well tell.

[Lady Sidhe]

It is illegal to discharge a fire arm while performing intercourse.
A little known law in Texas

Sorry, I just noticed that and had to reply...remember that old TV show, "Quincy"? Well, the guy they patterned Quincy after is a coroner in California, and he wrote a book about forensics; he actually got a woman off in reference to the murder of her boyfriend. It seems that the boyfriend couldn't get off unless he had a loaded pistol to his head while performing intercourse. On this particular occasion, he'd forgotten to put the safety on the gun, and pulled the trigger at the moment of orgasm. ( They proved the girlfriend's innocence through trajecory information)

Talk about coming and going at the same time, huh?
People like him are the reason they put "do not use in the shower" warnings on hair dryers....

Sidhe

[Undertoad]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
It is illegal to discharge a fire arm while performing intercourse.
A little known law in Texas

NBN is in some big trouble, is all I gots ta say.

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Talk about coming and going at the same time, huh?
People like him are the reason they put "do not use in the shower" warnings on hair dryers....

Sidhe

Oh man that is funny. I read HP your post and all he could say was "people are dumb". Stupid bastard probably scarred his girlfriend for life. Darwinism at its finest.

[Whit]

      Ya know, referring back to the main discussion, to hell with them. Faith in their honesty? What about faith in your own honesty?
      Frankly, to my mind this is all crap. Some problem in the relationship the cheatee isn't admitting too? So freakin' what? I really don't care. I've been cheated on, it's not that I stopped trusting that person to be honest with me, I stopped trusting that person to be honest with herself.
      Just for clarification, I once had a huge fight with a girlfriend and was so pissed I didn't trust myself to be civil in what I said, so I dropped her off at home and left. I had every intention of ending the relationship the next day, and in fact, I did. That night, after the fight, before the breakup, I past on a chance to sleep with a chic I'd had a long term crush on. I did this knowing I'd not get the chance later. (She was leaving, going into the Air Force) I still didn't do it. Not out of a sense of loyalty, I was done with the g/f. It was because of me. My sense of morality. I didn't do it because it would be cheating. Even though it was over in every sense except the official one. It didn't matter. I wouldn't cheat.
      My point, to hell with love for the S/O, show some love for yourself and do what you actually believe is the right thing.
      On the other hand, what do I know? I'm single.

[tw]

Originally posted by ladysycamore
Oh God, I have a reallly hard time when it comes to trust. It was bad enough when I found out that I couldn't completely trust my friends at one time. I now hold them at arms length (at least the ones that I still talk to), ...

I communicate blunt and honest. I am not politically correct. This does upset some poeple - especially those who need everything politically correct. As a result, my closest friend are fully trustworthy, tolerant, benchmarks of honesty, and well respected. Shallow people are the first to run when confronted with blunt honesty.

Have been here long enough that 'how I communicate' should not need be explained. But it works. Adults do not need things politically correct. Children do. Good people are quite tolerant of diverse opinions. Good people don't have to lie. Yes, if the subject needs be discussed, then don't hold back and don't lie. If one has to lie, then the relationship was not worth 'beans' anyway.

The number of divorces among my closest friends is almost zero - well below the 10% level - after numerous decades. You may not like what I say, but I am going to say it anyway. Only better people have no problem with blunt honesty. The most popular people cannot and don't do this. But then what is more important. Your popularity or the quality of your friends?

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by Whit
*snip*... I still didn't do it. Not out of a sense of loyalty.... *snip*It was because of me. My sense of morality. I didn't do it because it would be cheating....*snip* I wouldn't cheat.
My point....do what you actually believe is the right thing. *snip*

I agree with all of that. I agree with your idea of the morality and having a little pride in yourself and doing the right thing. To be unemotional about a very emotional subject, cheating simply makes the cheater look like an asshole. Now, some people don't care if they look like assholes. They want gratification, of physical desire, of ego, or whatever. But the fact that they don't have enough pride in themselves to do what's right IS just disgusting. You wonder, how can someone think so little of themselves that they're willing to demonstrate how untrustworthy they are, and to the person they're supposed to care the most about, no less? If they'll treat their SO like that, damn, what would they do to someone who's merely a friend?

But there IS the emotional aspect to it. If you've been married to/with someone for years, and your investment of love in this person is deep, then you may not be willing to just throw that away. It's easy to say "kick 'em to the curb," but it's not always as easy to do. You just can't stop loving someone....well, I'm sure some people can, but I don't think that most people find it that easy to just turn love off. Sometimes there ARE underlying problems. I'm not saying that makes cheating right, acceptable, or excusable....but if the cheater is truly sorry, is willing to do whatever it takes to regain trust, and both are willing to work to make the relationship better, then I say go for it. Everyone makes mistakes, some more contemptible than others, granted, but a second chance is not out of line if both partners truly want to make it work.

Sidhe

[storm]

I guess if I was in a long term relationship and I had never strayed before I would have to ask myself why I had done so. If the answer was just too much to drink I would avoid getting into that sort of situation again, get myself checked out at a STD clinic and get on with my life. The mistake can't be undone and why hurt your partner when the answer you would probably get is "why did you have to tell me". If you have children the emotional damage that can result could have a profound effect on them for life ( I speak from personal experience ).

If the reason was something else I would have to reconsider my position in the relationship and see if the time was not right to make a break but I don't think I would still confess to the indiscretion just to the feelings that got me there in the first place.

Sex without love is an empty experience, but as empty experiences go it's a pretty good one.

woody allen

[Riddil]

Ok, think about this...

Hypothetically of course, lets say that you had the absolute truth about God, the afterlife, and everything. Now imagine you walk up to a devout Christian (or Buddhist, whatever), and told them that you would tell them truth about the Universe, if they would like. And there are only two answers for them, either God exists EXACTLY as they believe, or he does not exist at all. And this person knows and fully accepts that you do know the *real* answer, and will tell them the truth.

Should they ask you?

If you tell them that God is 100% accurately described in their faith, then they go on believing/praying. Their life doesn't change. But if you tell them that God doesn't exist, and the afterlife is just a dull nothingness... suddenly their life is pointless. Everything was just a big waste of time. That love/happiness/comfort they felt in Church is washed away.

Would it have been better to have never asked? If they never asked, they could go on living their life happy and self-assured in their faith.

So, in the case where life could go on normal, happy, and trusting by *not* knowing the truth... and simple knowledge would ruin all of that... I'd rather not know.

And I'd like to believe that if my S.O. was a liar & a cheater, then I would eventually learn anyhow, and the relationship would end. But if it's a one-time thing and life could go on... why ruin it by learning the truth?

It's the same reason why I will never try heroin. I actually have a friend who used to be a heroin addict. I've heard her describe the feeling it gives you. And life AFTER heroin is hollow. Food doesn't taste as good, sex doesn't feel as good, everything pales in comparison. But if you never try it... food still tastes fine. Sex still feels great.

Ignorance truly is bliss.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Counseling can help the couple to address the underlying problems, through a neutral third party who may be able to point out things about the relationship that the couple can't or won't see. A third person can help a lot. If they didn't, people wouldn't vent to their friends.

Right, there's no problem a couple can't fix with a threesome.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by storm
I guess if I was in a long term relationship and I had never strayed before I would have to ask myself why I had done so. If the answer was just too much to drink I would avoid getting into that sort of situation again, get myself checked out at a STD clinic and get on with my life. The mistake can't be undone and why hurt your partner when the answer you would probably get is "why did you have to tell me". If you have children the emotional damage that can result could have a profound effect on them for life ( I speak from personal experience ).

If the reason was something else I would have to reconsider my position in the relationship and see if the time was not right to make a break but I don't think I would still confess to the indiscretion just to the feelings that got me there in the first place.

If only more cheaters would feel the same way, by which I mean, asking themselves WHY they did it. If only they'd stop themselves BEFORE they did it, and think, "WHY am I considering cheating?"

I don't think that most people really think about it on a conscious level. Or perhaps they do, and find it easier to cheat than to work on the underlying problems....cause, come on....if you're happy, you won't cheat. You won't put yourself in a position to cheat...or at least I think that would be true in general.

However, I think I, personally, would want to know. I think it would hurt worse to find out years later, after thinking that my partner had been faithful, that my partner had cheated. I'd always be thinking, "Was that the ONLY time? How many other times has he done it that he's NOT telling me about? Is he doing it now? Is he planning on doing it again? Why did he do it? If there were problems, why didn't he SAY something, so we could work it out?"

I mean, that line of thinking may be unwarranted; he may HAVE only done it that once....but it's not really something that's easy to think logically about, I guess. I just think I'd be able to get past it faster if my partner admitted what he'd done, and promised to work to make our relationship better, than finding it out later. I'd feel like I'd been lied to the whole time he hadn't told me, that the relationship had been an act or something, and that he was having his cake and eating it too. I think finding out would hurt more than being told. One is up front and honest. The other is sneaky and underhanded.

It's easy to say what you'd do when it isn't happening to you, or hasn't happened to you, though.


Sidhe

[tw]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
However, I think I, personally, would want to know. I think it would hurt worse to find out years later, after thinking that my partner had been faithful, that my partner had cheated. I'd always be thinking, "Was that the ONLY time? How many other times has he done it that he's NOT telling me about? Is he doing it now? Is he planning on doing it again? Why did he do it? If there were problems, why didn't he SAY something, so we could work it out?"

Exactly the point when I said

The number of divorces among my closest friends is almost zero ... Only better people have no problem with blunt honesty. The most popular people cannot and don't do this. But then what is more important. Your popularity or the quality of your friends?

Some people are so shallow as to worry about what another will think now; instead of addressing the long term relationship. This applies to both members of that relationship - the cheator and its victim. IOW it is rather important also to be blunt honest even about other things. Blunt honesty creates strength; or eliminates the shallow person in advance. Blunt honesty, no matter how much it hurts, either builds children into adults or drives off those children who fail to grow into adults. Situations such as this would be easier for both to overcome; especially if the mistake is confessed to immediately. If one cannot be blunt honest (immediately) about cheating, then the other must ask (if not assume) how much larger that iceberg might be. Blunt honesty is critical to trust.

Clearly, if the relationship is important and if the 'other' is of that 'quality', then confession up front and immediate is the only recourse. Yes it is hard - and risky. It might drive off your partner. But then only a 'quality' SO will remain - if you are of same stock.

One must have great respect for Hillary Clinton - having gone through everything and still writing in a last paragraph of her book how she still loves the man. Regardless of one's emotional response to Hilary, still, only real people can do what she did - and then publish the admission.

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by tw
...IOW it is rather important also to be blunt honest even about other things. ...
...Blunt honesty, no matter how much it hurts, either builds children into adults or drives off those children who fail to grow into adults. ...
...Blunt honesty is critical to trust. ...

So your saying if your wife said "Man I'm starting to look old." you would say "yes you are."?

Honesty is important in a relationship but there is a point where you cross the line. You don't tell your partner who has just spent 2 hours cooking a romantic meal that it was horrible. You don't tell them that the birthday present they got you (that they spent a week looking for to make sure it was perfect) was the worst thing you have ever received. Forgive me if I am wrong but this seems to be what you are telling us. You seem to be saying that if I tell my husband I loved a gift when maybe I didn't, that it makes me a shallow person. It's not shallowness to want to protect the person you love from emotional hurt, and frankly if you are always saying "well it could have been better" or something to that effect MOST people will eventually start hearing "nothing you ever do is good enough for me" and stop trying all together.

I applaud you if you have found a mate in life that finds your honesty on everything OK, but not every person is in that mind frame. I prefer my husband to tell me he liked something I have put an effort into even if he didn't, yes I know its lying but I still wouldn't have it any other way. Its not shallowness no matter what you might think.

[Lady Sidhe]

Well, honesty in the big things is important....now, honesty isn't ALWAYS the best policy....sometimes little white lies are called for. For instance, if your best friend says, "isn't my daughter cute?" and you think the child was hit with the ugly stick, you don't SAY so. That's needlessly cruel. There's no point in being needlessly cruel.

But when it comes to major things like faithfulness, I would prefer honesty. It would imply to me that the person is willing to own up to what they did and then we could start talking to find out what to do next.

Sidhe